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A Boston parent who doesn't want to move
By adamg on Tue, 11/30/2010 - 11:39am
Stefan Lanfer of Jamaica Plain faces that classic conundrum of Boston parents who believe in public-school educations: The dreaded school lottery. He begins to think about moving - like some of his friends and neighbors. But then, he realized just how special his neighborhood and city is:
For all of the effort and dollars now focused on trying to fix public schools, sometimes I wonder if the most meaningful and impactful thing we could do - and that any family with choice could do - is to stay put. It is one of the few incontrovertible levers for lasting school reform - when more and more parents are more and more engaged, schools get better. Way better. Neighborhood and sense of community gets richer too. I know this kind of talk triggers cliché's of bleeding heart liberal parents sacrificing kids on the altar of their ideals. But that cliché is based on a false paradigm. Because giving up on reaching for whatever it is the suburbs may have to offer isn’t our only possible sacrifice. There is gain and there is loss no matter what we choose.
I sure would like to stay.
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Comments
I appreciate that this person
I appreciate that this person is thinking of staying put. It really bothers me that you don't see a lot of school age kids in JP anymore b/c the parents leave when it's time for them to start school.
He is right - the only way Boston schools will get better is if parents stay put and become part of the solution. Is it easy? No it's not. I just feel that if you are going to move into a place b/c it's the "it" place to be then why isn't it the "it" place to be when your kids are ready for school.
The "It" Place?
Some of us didn't move to JP because it sounded like a cool thing to do. We moved there and purchased a home because it was a (mostly) nice neighborhood with affordable real estate and access to things that we value: outdoor space, diversity (in every sense), good restaurants, public transportation etc.
It's not that JP has lost its luster; the crime is enough to do that on its own (much of it documented on this very blog). However the bottom line is that on the whole, Boston Public Schools are not very good. There are obviously exceptions, but do I really want to entrust my child's education and future to a lottery? Probably not. There's a reason I don't play the lotto in the first instance so why would I do it with something way more important than a dollar?
Trust me, it's not an easy choice. I would love to stay in JP and figure a way for my kid to go to a good school. Part of what you should get for paying property taxes (in my opinion) is a quality education. I don't think I will get the bargain I am looking for by signing up for a lottery.
The reality is that we will probably end up moving to one of the suburban areas that are mentioned in the post because it's the best we can do for our kids. And that, is very difficult to argue with.
This is nothing new and until Boston fixes its school system, it will continue to lose young families that would otherwise contribute in a positive way to the city.
Maybe..
.. you didn't move to JP because it was the current "it" place but many people did. I do wish that you would reconsider and take what the original poster has to say into your decision. The schools will never get better if the parents who care move to the burbs because the schools suck. Why not work to make the schools a better place for your kids and others ? You seem to like JP and if more people like you stay,the better the schools will be.
Chicken and the egg?
On the one hand, as Manny says, the schools will never get better if the parents who care move to the suburbs. On the other hand, the parents will never stay as long as the schools suck. How to break the cycle is not obvious at all.
School age kids fleeing JP
Part of the reason you don't see so many school age kids in JP is that their parents moved to Roslindale, where you can buy a whole house for the price of a condo in JP. When I meet other new parents in Rossie, I ask them what part of JP they used to live in.
Really, at this point only ignorance of the options could be a sufficient reason to leave the West Zone for school. To Kilmer, Lydon, and Manning add Haley, BTU, Philbrick, Curley, Mendell... The list of Bps schools with strong parent involvement and extras grows by the year. These schools have good teachers, accommodating administrators, and can be what you help make them. Why throw away all the cultural opportunities of the city because you are scared of the best urban public school system in the country? Would you really impoverish your kids by moving them to some bedroom community with no sidewalks?
The best the BPS has to offer is the best in the country. Why ensure yourself of mediocrity?
There is only one "best" and the others fall off quickly...
BLS might be the best, but very few can actually attend. If BPS has the title best urban public school system, shame on this country, because the quality of education provided to most children is embarrassing. They might get accepted at college, but most have not made it to college graduation because they lack preparation.
One of the main problems with the lottery is the lack of predictability. All these parents who would like to stay in the city would also probably be willing to channel efforts into a school they think their kids would attend, not just a place they have a 1 in X shot at. Sure, they could work with any school and make a difference, but naturally, self-interest is a stronger motivation.
It's not just BLS
I have friends in high end suburbs like Sudbury, with kids the same age as mine. The schools are no better than the BPS schools my kids go to, and in many ways they are not as good. A lot of suburban schools get good results simply by virtue of the student population that can afford to live there. That does not mean they are good schools. In Boston, the results are good even with a significant number of challenges. They are good because the teachers are good, and the curriculum is cutting edge. BPS is well deserving its rating as the best large urban school district in the country.
Roslindale isn't exactly the "city."
I realize that Roslindale is technically part of Boston, but let's not pretend that staying in Rozzie is the same as, say, staying in the South End. Roslindale is a suburb within the Boston city limits, much more akin to a place like Waltham in terms of population, school quality, etc. I think JP isn't quite "city" either, but it does have some of the diversity and crime of an urban area.
Only technically part of the city?
At least at my end of Roslindale, the city councilor used to be Tom Menino. You may have heard of him.
No, Roslindale is not as densely populated and built up as the South End. That's not necessarily a bad thing; some people like having yards. Nor does Roslindale, for the most part, have the same amount of crime (that's definitely a good thing).
But the city assessors take our tax money just as eagerly as they do from people along Clarendon Street.
And anybody who says Roslindale isn't as diverse as the rest of the city probably hasn't been here over the past couple of decades.
OK, OK, you got my Rozzie up, but this whole "not really part of the city" thing gets tiring after awhile.
Welcome to Boston, Anna
It's bleeding obvious you haven't been here for long.
One of the things you will notice about our fair city is that it is a city of neighborhoods. If you cut all the neighborhoods that don't fit your preconception of what a city is (all buildings above three stories, no large parks, no single-family houses) out of Boston, you won't be left with much. You'll get only the financial district, part of the Back Bay and South End, and most of Chinatown and the North End - and not even the entirety of those neighborhoods. You'd be left with something like Hartford with a nicer shopping district.
It's true that if you walk around most of Boston it will not meet with your idea of what a city should be. You'll see rows of triple deckers fading into single family houses and unsquare squares with single-story commercial development punctuated with the odd tower. That is what the great majority of the city of Boston is like, from Eastie to Westie, Mattapan to Brighton.
But one of the things you will learn if you stick around for a while is that the neighborhoods are what makes the city work. Most of the people who grow up in the city of Boston live in the neighborhoods. Most of the people who stay for good in the city of Boston live in the neighborhoods. Most of the people who make the city run (cops, firefighters, teachers, etc.) live in the neighborhoods. Most of the kids who go to BPS live in (you guessed it) the neighborhoods. Very few people live downtown, and they turn over faster.
The idea that there is some kind of "real" city person who lives in a more diverse, citylike place, with different schools, than the people who live in the neighborhoods of Boston, is a fiction you bring from your experience elsewhere. The school quality of Roslindale is the same school quality open to anybody who lives in the West Zone, stretching from Roxbury to West Roxbury (which, you will learn, do not abut). The relatively few children who live downtown may go to schools anywhere from Allston to East Boston (neither of which would meet your qualifications for citylike).
Boston isn't like New York City, with its block after block expanse of high-rise apartment and mixed-use buildings. The very small part of Boston that has that kind of development houses fewer Bostonians than the rest of the city, and probably more people who are here temporarily from elsewhere, both absolutely and relatively.
When you say Roslindale isn't actually the city, you say more about yourself than you do about Roslindale. No, Anna, Roslindale really is the city. It's very typical of the City of Boston. The City of Boston may seem strange to you now. But stay here a while and it'll probably grow on you.
Sock_puppet, This is a spot
Sock_puppet,
This is a spot on assessment of the city. When I first came here 15 years ago I probably had a viewpoint similar to that of Anna. My exploration of Boston over the years now shows me how misguided I was back then.
if i was from roslindale...
and someone compared it to waltham id be pissed.
get a grip anna.
How do you figure? The
How do you figure? The population density of Roslindale is 11,000 people per square mile. Sure, that is less than some parts of Boston, but quite a bit higher than most suburbs. The area surrounding Roslindale Square is quite dense, featuring mostly triple deckers and other multi-family housing as the majority type of unit. On the block and a half between my house and the square I pass 38 housing units, and the blocks are small. I can walk to dozens of restaurants, bakeries, and shops. I can walk to 15 different public transit lines (both bus and rail).
Roslindale is very urban, very much city. But more importantly, it is politically, legally, whatever term you wish to use, part of Boston, has been since the 19th century. My kids attend BPS schools, just as much as kids from the South End. And guess what, my white kids are the minority at the school they attend. Roslindale is very diverse.
We stayed put and haven't regretted it
We have faced this agonizing decision (and the agonizing BPS lottery) twice in the last four years. We decided to stay and have never regretted it. Our kids are doing extremely well in Roslindale BPS elementary schools where parental involvement is higher than average. Plus, our oldest child has had a very good year at the Irving Middle School, which has improved dramatically under the new principal. Her 6th grade teachers there are impressive. Advice to other parents facing this dilemma: look beyond the "system" in the abstract, and examine your school choices on a school-by-school (or even teacher-by-teacher) basis. There is enough variety in the schools to find a good fit for you and your children. Try the lottery. Hope for the best. And have a plan B ready if you strike out on the lottery, as we did for two years in a row.
With kids in 1st and 4th in a
With kids in 1st and 4th in a BPS school in Roslindale, I can say with conviction that you can stay.
There are many, many choices and I hope you find one that is right for your family!
Good luck!
Right on!
K1, 2nd, and 4th in BPS schools in Rozzie, and I completely agree. The schools are great, and I say this as somebody who didn't get the schools we ranked highest on the application. Now that I know a bit more, I can honestly say I'd have been happy with any of the schools in Roslindale. I hear good things about schools in JP, too. If you like your neighborhood, see value living in it, then why not raise your kids there? The schools are good, despite the propaganda.
hear hear!
Don't leave. If you love the neighborhood, stay and give it a shot. As the parent of a teenager, here's what I've observed over the years about schools: they're all a crapshoot to some degree. All schools have good teachers, mediocre teachers, nice kids, mean kids. Some schools have more resources, absolutely, but of the kids I know in both public and private, each year has been slightly different, sometimes unpredictably so, but the pluses of having your kid go to school in a place that you love, with kids and parents that you know or will get to know is huge. We lived in the North Zone during elementary school, so I don't know the JP or Roslindale schools too well, but I know plenty of kids who thrived at the Manning and the Curley and are now well and happy at BLA and BLS. I can say definitively that while I've been frustrated with the lack of resources at the BPS--playground time (and decent playgrounds) extras like art and music, etc.--we have had some truly dedicated and extraordinary teachers, met amazing families and kids, and had a depth and breadth of experience that I just don't think you can find in Wellesley or Newton. Go visit the schools; talk to as many parents as you can find, and give it a chance.
Does Boston want a middle class
This is a laudable attitude but ultimately it's dangerous for your kid. You can easily get exhausted trying to keep all the faltering middle class institutions going, like the school or the library. Now your kid feels obligated to stay too. Unfortunately Boston has many more takers than givers.
"dangerous?"
We're talking about five-year-olds here. They are not going to shoot or stab each other. And frankly, stacking blocks in a classroom in Brookline is not going to be terribly different from stacking blocks in a classroom in Roslindale. My daughter learned more during her K2 year in a crowded, noisy classroom in a Boston school, with a brilliant, loving teacher and a wonderful para than she did during a subsequent year in a private (our one brief foray out of the public schools).
the danger is burnout
I meant that it's dangerous to think you can do it all. You have a school system where 80% of the kids are going to underperform, and then on top of that, a bureaucracy that is dedicated to self-preservation first and last.
Keep your kids in the BPS if you want, I did. But pay attention to your kid first. And when it comes to BPS, never imagine that you or your kid are God's gift to them -- they sure don't think that way.
Step one: End busing Step
Step one: End busing
Step two: End busing
Step three: End busing
Hey, anonymous....
your comment to end busing is not a silver bullet that will fix everything. There will still be underperforming schools. They just will have more underserved children b/c those children won't have choices within their school zone. And there is too much demand for certain schools. And the middle schools and high schools are a work in progress, which means that ending busing won't solve that problem either. So perhaps you need to think in a more complex, involved way about this issue (or get involved!) before you proclaim that ending busing will solve it all.
Signed, mother of two BPS kids (6th grade and 2nd)
I would stay in JP for K-6
I would stay in JP for K-6 and see where you go from there. I would be happy with any of the schools in JP or Roslindale that I have had contact with. They are not bad at all as many will have you believe. Why not try it out for a year or two and then see if it really is as bad as all that? How much damage can a second-rate kindergarten class really do your child?
Whit
Yes, tell us more
I'm by no means opposed to a move towards neighborhood schools, but whenever I hear someone boil down Boston's school problems to busing, I always want to know what they think a neighborhood school system will actually look like. How big is a neighborhood? What happens when there aren't enough seats in the neighborhood schools - do the Lyndon, Kilmer, and Beethoven schools actually have enough seats for all those West Roxbury kids, especially if more families started moving there to get slots at those schools? What about pilot schools - are they only available to families that live near them? Does no one in Roslindale get to go to a K-8 school, and does no one in West Roxbury get to go to a K-5 school? You get the idea.
I understand the arguments for neighborhood schools and I agree with a lot of them. Yes, the lottery is tough, and riding in a bus to a neighborhood you don't have any other connection to is a waste. But I've never seen any neighborhood schools group propose an actual, detailed plan to make the transition, and I'd like to see one before I fully throw my support behind the idea. "End busing" may well be part of that plan, but it's not steps 1-3 of a 3 step process, that's for sure.
If there's not enough schools
If there's not enough schools in West Roxbury, the City should build one like they did when they built new multi-million dollar schools in Dorchester, Roxbury and Mattapan recently.
That would be great! Can we do it?
That sounds great - and expensive - which is part of my point. I would certainly welcome a neighborhood school plan that could meet each neighborhood's demands for school services, I just don't think we're especially close to that point now.
I'm assuming the original commenter's point of view is that by eliminating busing, parents would be more involved, kids would spend more time learning and less time sitting on the bus, the school would save a ton of money on transportation costs, and everyone would win. And those things would probably all happen, eventually, at least to some degree. But I suspect that the reality is that it would be a really tough and costly transition.
I'm not trying to argue against neighborhood schools. I just want to know more about how people think the transition would go. How much would we really save on transportation costs (I doubt it's even close to the full busing budget)? How many new schools would we need to open, and how many would we need to close elsewhere? How else would we have to restructure the schools? Would this end up costing us more than we save at first, and if so, for how long? How screwed up would things get during the transition, and how long would the transition take?
I think neighborhood schools, if they're done right, are probably worth the trouble. But it's not as simple as just ending busing and sending every kid to an existing nearby school.
cost of busing
I may be wrong, but I believe that busing makes up something like $70 million of the budget which is insane. Obviously you have to bus a certain number of kids, but these crazy zones, where kids get transported from East Boston to Brighton or Charlestown to Roxbury are nuts. I also don't understand why on earth we're paying for public buses to take kids to private schools, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
$71,489,688 is the FY 2011 figure
That's from here: http://www.bostonpublicschools.org/budget
But the budget details indicate that "only" about $30 million of that is considered "Controlled Choice Transporation", which I assume is how they categorize transportation costs incurred by the current school zoning system - if someone can provide more details, that would be great. That's a lot of money, but it's also a lot less than $70 million. And I doubt that we could even get that $30 million figure down to zero, since the current policy is that students are transportation eligible even within their walk zone as long as there is a major street between their home and their school.
Again, I think a well-implemented neighborhood school plan is probably worth the effort. I'm just trying to point out that it would be nice to have some clarity about what the real costs and benefits would be. I don't think there's a $70 million savings available here, probably more along the lines of $10-$20 million.
Excellent point
Even assuming every kid suddenly went to a "neighborhood" school - either the one closest or one within the same neighborhood - a majority of kids would probably still qualify for bussing to that school under the current rules. I don't thing anybody has figured this out specifically, but I imagine that there are many others in the same situation as I am - there is no Boston Public School to which my kid lives too close to be bussed, including every school in the walk zone and every school in the neighborhood.
The greater part of the total expense of bussing isn't from taking kids to other neighborhoods. It's from the fact that most children don't live within a safe and easy walking distance from any school, and it's not appropriate to assume all parents should drive their kids to school every day.
To roll busing costs back to the scale of what they were a few generations ago, the system would have to reverse the centralizing movement of the past forty years (where so many school buildings were torn down or converted to condos) and build dozens of new, smaller schools in the neighborhoods. The cost would be greater than the savings.
how ending busing would help
Ending busing would make it clear that the black neighborhoods are completely screwed up. Some of it is the city, some of it is the residents.
Busing allows a whitewash of that. Look at the political power in the city... in the writer's JP district, it was a runoff between O'Malley and Hennigan. Was BPS really high on the agenda for the voters there?
Sorry, but that's kind of BS
I don't think anybody doesn't realize most of the failing schools are in predominantly minority areas.
Busing doesn't allow a whitewash of that. It does potentially allow parents to find a better school for their kids, assuming they get lucky in the lottery. Of course, I'm biased, because our daughter was bused for seven years to what we thought was a better school for her than the two neighborhood schools.
busing decision was not done to improve education
The intent of the busing decision was never to improve education, it was simply to desegregate it.
In my limited observation in my neighborhood (Allston-Brighton), the main result of busing was to send kids from minority-heavy areas into minority-lighter areas for school. However many schools in A.B. then became completely bussed. The advanced work classes were then moved to poor black neighborhoods. I admit that this serves some purpose as far as safety goes, and maybe balancing out test scores geographically. However students from Mission Hill don't receive a better education simply by moving their school en masse to Brighton.
The buildings aren't the problem, the kids are the problem.
Sorry you can't see the
Sorry you can't see the forest through the trees. When it comes time to send the kids to middle and high school, middle class parents are concerned about their kids safety much more than the school's performance, rightfully so. As someone who went to school through busing and who's relatives were crime victims in schools, I say to people who have options like the JP parent, don't risk your child's saftey in hellholes of unreported crime and intimidation for political correctness. Read the book "Common Ground". Some of the biggest advocates of busing (limosene liberals) were the first ones in Sudbury, Newton and Norwood when their children were threatened. Too bad the poor were left with no options (not even METCO), except for a G.E.D. So if you want to get involved with Boston Public Schools when it's time to send your sixth grader to one, sign him up for B.C. High or her up for Mount St. Joseph's.
By the way, where the frig are the environmentalists. It is unbelievable to watch 3/4 empty buses driving all over the city spewing a known carcinogen, diesel exhaust.
The busing crisis was 35 years ago
Or are we never going to let go of it?
I'm sorry for what you went through, but my daughter just finished up seven years at a BPS elementary school and not once did she sink into "a hellhole of unreported crime and intimidation."
I don't know about in the East and North Zones, but in the West Zone, there are public alternatives for 6th grade - the Lyndon, Kilmer, Ohrenberger/Beethoven and, I think, the BTU School are all K-8. And yes, I admit we were relieved when the Kilmer, where our daughter was, went K-8, because we were not looking forward to sending her to the Irving, which at the time was in the Transcript police blotter almost every week (things have since gotten better under the new principal, I hear).
Let's let "it" go when it's
Let's let "it" go when it's gone. Busing was one of the worst denial of people's rights in the history of the United States. This statement is not mine, it's from William Bulger when he was Senate President. It is much of a crisis today as ever.
The elementary schools are good, even some are great but the middle and high schools have serious problems with crime. People are leaving the city when it's time for middle and high schools not based on academics. If we deny that, then we are denying reality. The kid who shot his cousin to death and whose mother covered up for him went to the Holland. His victim went to the Holland. His family life was hell just like many others in the neighborhoods that have no fathers present or mothers who give a damn. To place a child on a bus that goes into schools in those neighborhoods is wrong.
I can't help but feel that people are fighting for scraps when it comes to these lotteries. It's like a scene from Black Friday trying to get in the door of a Walmart. By the way, like the probation department, if you know someone, you're all set.
Bingo!
BINGO! Filled my card diagonally top-left to bottom-right. Probably could have filled in the other diagonal at the same time, but "proposal for privatizing schools" and "blame teachers' unions" were conspicuously absent. Please come back, anon, Adam awards double prizes when we get the full X on a Conservative Talking Points Bingo Card.
Dammit
I only needed "New Math" to win.
bps
agree, agree, agree
You'll get a perfectly good
You'll get a perfectly good education up until about 5th grade when kids start peeling off for advanced work and ultimately the exam schools, then it becomes a mess particularly in Roslindale. Theres a premise running through these posts that I'm not sure I agree with based on what I've seen - that is the idea that by staying with you're making a big difference to the BPS. In my experience the kids who come from college educated middle class parents do very well but none of that rubs off on the other 75% of students who continue to do pretty poorly. If you actually dig into the data about the schools around here you'll see that, the averages are false indicators because you have the yuppie kids making high scores and the free lunch kids making frighteningly low scores.
Theres not a lot of meaningful interaction between the bus kids and the minivan kids but nobody likes to point that out.
It becomes a mess?
And if you are peeling off, is it a mess for you too? Or just for those you leave behind?
Its a mess either way because
Its a mess either way because you're given two bad options, you either put your kid into advanced work where they will be given more homework than should be allowed by law or you leave your kid with their less ambitious, less academically advanced peers, imagine what level that class will be taught at...
For whatever its worth the data is out there on the BPS websites, just browse the MCAS results by subgroup for any grade with populations big enough to be tracked and a stubborn pattern emerges. 70% of the white kids are advanced/proficient and 70% of the black and Latino kids are needs improvement/warning. Its not a fact people feel comfortable talking about in most schools but its the hard truth.
you make some good points...
My daughter was in AW classes after 4th grade and she observed the huge gap between her class and the "regular" classes--racial and cultural differences, and how they were treated by the teachers and staff (kind of a mix, actually--her class felt like they were snubbed by a lot of the staff, lunch ladies, etc. but she also thought that the teachers had "given up" on the regular ed. kids and that they had "no hope" which I found pretty daunting coming from a 5th grader. That said, her class was still extremely diverse, virtually all kids of immigrants, and really an interesting bunch of kids--very driven, very bright, and most of them got free lunch. There was also plenty of "meaningful interaction" between different groups of kids, though as they got older, the cultural pulls of neighborhood, ethnicity, and ambition became stronger and stronger. The ambitious kids separated more and more from the kids who either didn't want to join the race for exam schools and privates or who didn't seem to get that kind of direction at home--it was sometimes painful to see. Still, more cultural than economic from what I observed. The free lunch stats even for the exam schools would surprise you--not nearly as many "yuppie" kids" as you might imagine.
An advantage of a small school
Of which the West Zone has several, is you don't get that kind of stratification. When we were considering AWS, it was kind of striking that both the Irving and the Curley made a point of how the AWS kids were kept separate from the rest of the kids.
We ultimately decided not to send the kidlet to AWS (it would have meant three schools in a few years, assuming she got into an exam school) - and she did fine, despite warnings from the AWS director that kids who didn't go into the program would wind up living in boxes under highway overpasses (OK, I'm exaggerating, but not by much).
ha!
My daughter had one teacher --fantastic, intense, but slightly nuts and very young--who told her class that most of the other kids in the school were going to end up "in jail or scrubbing toilets."
Somebody has to
scrub the toilets. Who do these twits think keeps their faculty toilets safe and sanitary?
My son gets tired of kids ragging on the Voke students. That's because he hung out while we paid really good money to a couple of different sets of workers to do the plumbing and electrical work on the kitchen and completely replace the rotted out wiring in his room. If these guys are all total losers, we are in deep doo doo.
to be fair...
she was referring to a specific bunch of kids that used to come by and harass the girls in the class, so it's not like she was dismissing all of the rest of the kids in the school, but I still thought it was pretty brutal. I
Where's the data?
You know, I brought up this point with a friend who founded a charter school because he's so committed to improving the Boston school system. Isn't it better for us to stay so that there are more engaged, educated parents in the system? And he said, "Yeah, it's nice of you to say that by sending your kid to a city school you're making the world a better place, but there's no evidence that this actually does anything." The presence of my child and his white, middle-class privilege does nothing for an underprivileged classmate who can't even find a quiet place to do homework. Now, if I had 15 extra hours a week to spend volunteering at that school, and all the other parents with the resources to do so also did so, maybe we'd start to see change. But simply staying put and keeping your kids in the public schools isn't really the solution, as far as I can tell.
"best urban public school system in the country"
and I still wont send my kid to any bps high school
Really? Any?
Not even an exam school?
exam schools being the
exam schools being the exception....they are good schools
What's the answer for the average kid
Everybody who replied to this thread positively has done the same thing... got through the elementary grades when the bad kids are small and easier to control, somehow negotiated sixth grade when puberty hell begins, and then did the exam schools. The difference in the burbs is that you don't have to be in the top 10% academically to get a decent education and safe environment, whereas in Boston you're basically sunk if you're an average kid.
There has to be an answer for the average kid.
Tale of Two Cities
if your rich Boston is a great city to send your kids to diverse private schools, if your poor or middle class you have to ship your kids on the T where they are subject to perverts and punks on a daily basis.
My kids rode buses and trains to high school for 7 years total..
... and never had any of the "daily problems" you seem so obsessed by.
Yeah . . .
. . . its funny. Was talking to my dad the other day about his childhood- and how he used to take the subway all the time as a kid to go to BC High. He rides the T now on occasion and he doesn't think the occasional rowdiness you see among kids today compares to his day. In his day- dressed up in his BC high uniform- he said they were terrors on the T. Disrespectful to a degree that you don't see today that much. A big thing they used to do to each other while standing on the platforms- was throw each others book bags onto the tracks- to the absolute horror of the adults standing around - and the kid would have to jump down- with the live third rail- and get them- and if an adult said something- they would tell them to "eff off".
An interesting thing about the T and students
Which I had no clue about until this fall: At least at BLS, the T sets aside one bus for certain lines that pick up and drop off kids right at the school. So in the afternoon, our daughter gets on a 34 bus to Roslindale that starts right in front of BLS. Pervert problem solved, not that she's encountered any so far in the morning, when she and our neighbor's kid pick up a normal 39 bus at Forest Hills.
There used to be....
...one of those special buses in the morning too -- it would pick kids up at Washington and Metropolitan. Not always good coordination with the 50. alas. Ultimately, they often took the Orange Line and walked the several blocks over to the school from the nearest stop.
I Got Bingo!
Between this post and Mr. Unreported Violence, I covered the Suburban Uninformed Fearful Stereotype Bingo card!
Seriously. This is why I
Seriously. This is why I hate the suburbs and never want to move there. When I have kids, I'm more willing to trust them to the Boston school system than, say, the tender mercies of Gloucester.
Gloucester is not a suburb
It's a city with its own economy and culture, connected to but quite separate from Boston's.
Agreed.
Gloucester is a great city with a lot of history and a population that remembers it.
I think you believe the
I think you believe the suburbs to be more dangerous than they are.... let's be rational and look at the data of violent crime per 1000 residents...
Boston 9.92
Newton 0.61
Therefore, I conclude that you're more likely to be mugged (or worse) in urban Boston than in suburban Newton; maybe you interpret the data differently..
and that's only violent crimes...
As far as large cities are concerned Boston is very safe..
sheesh...
Isn't Newton famously "the safest city in America?" Not quite a fair comparison.
Anecdotal, but...
From my work with adolescents and young adults, it seems that people in cities who've survived abuse from known perpetrators (relatives, teachers, etc.) were in a culture in which it was reported and usually prosecuted. People growing up in suburbs were more likely to have told no one, or to have told a few trusted adults and been told that they couldn't report it because of various social pressures, or to have reported it and been totally shot down.
And sure, there's more of the "violence culture" in cities, yes, but research shows us that known-perpetrator abuse (bullying, sexual harassment, sexual abuse, date rape, incest, etc.) messes kids up way more than something like being mugged one time by someone you've never seen before.
Unless...
...the mugger shoots you.
Dear anon...
At least my Boston Public School kids would know the difference between "your" and "you're"!
you don't have children, mr.
you don't have children, mr. author-rit-TAY.
Meanwhile, Brighton High Football had a big win last night.
And a few fans traveled down to Bridgewater to watch it. They will play Northeast for the Division 4A State championship this Saturday at Curry College.
And Madison Park lost in the first round
to Shawsheen last night in the division 4 semifinal. They finished at 8-2.
another thought on neighborhood schools
I walked by White Stadium on Thanksgiving morning while the Eastie-Southie game was going on. It's always nice to hear activity coming from the stadium, but I was sad to see how few spectators were there watching and cheering. I know it's a haul, but it just made me wonder--was there more neighborhood pride when the schools drew kids from the neighborhood? Or is it just that the football programs aren't that good? It just bums me out that these big urban schools don't even have decent sports programs or extracurriculars.
Yes there was Sally
Boston English used to get thousands of people at their home football games. Southie would have parades and also have good crowds.
But football crowds have been very bad since the 1970s from when I first started to watch them.
My thought was to just make certain schools big on certain sports. Even this English/Latin series has become a joke. Latin people would never change that tradition though (And Latin people have the biggest say in the BPS), but I think they should get rid of 5 football programs and tell kids if you want to play football, you have to go to 2-4 schools (Madison Park, East Boston, West Roxbury, etc). Then those schools can put a real focus on the sport and put these kids on the same playing field as their surburban counterparts. You would also probably end up saving money in the long run.
Did I say I did?
I just think it's hilarious that someone with such fervent opinions on education is so conspicuous in his own lack thereof.
Busing memories.
I was six, in 1975- I think the year the busing started. The "news" was a big thing back then every night and I watched it with my parents and brothers in the family room before or after dinner depending. I have dim memories of images of trouble. Later- when I was a bit older- I heard stories of caravans of cars from the neighborhoods effected by busing passing through Wellesley (where I grew up) to go honk their horns while passing Judge Garrity's house. Never saw this or heard the horns myself- just heard it happened. At about that time we got the first METCO kids from Boston bused in to Wellesley and I remember trouble at the high school- couple big fights based on race- again- heard about them from older kids on the block in High School only- didn't see them. One time- when I was Junior High (now middle school)- the Metco Kids had to be put in the auditorium and bused home early because a "Rumble" had been planned between black and white after school that day. But mostly- there was little trouble. Amazing how many METCO students I still know today (Facebook helps with that).
The opinion of my parents was basically that these neighborhoods were being given a raw deal and that it was an awful plan.
And I guess the images of rocks being thrown at buses sorta got into our heads as kids- because throwing rocks at buses- became something you just did- got caught doing it once myself with my friends- I must have been like 8 or 9. I don't think we even knew what we doing or why we were throwing rocks at buses- we just did.
It's really as simple as this
Neither I, nor my partner, are willing to put our child's educational future in the hands of a lottery. I've dreamed of moving back to JP or Roslindale from Brookline, but that will only happen if we make enough to send the kids to private school. Otherwise, it's Brookline or the south suburbs. Just being honest.
Forgive my forwardness, but
Forgive my forwardness, but that's a bit short-sighted, for at least a couple reasons.
The first is that the BPS early-grade school assignment process is not a "lottery", even though people insist on calling it that. The only truly random element is the order in which the individual forms are processed. When run correctly it's fair and efficient, and almost always gets young children into one of the schools their parents have asked for. Is it always "run correctly" (ie without interference or incompetence by the district administration)? That's an open question, and I'm actually someone who has raised my voice about the BPS's lack of transparency and how it unduly feeds Bostonians' fears about patronage or other tom-foolery. However, I have been paying close attention to the evolution of the assignment process for the last decade, and would say that on the whole it has seen ongoing improvement. It's far fairer than the assignment processes of other major cities with which I have familiarized myself.
But more specifically for you Glibertarian, or any JP/Rosi parent, is that almost every West Zone school your young child would be eligible to attend is good to excellent, with most falling near the higher rating. My wife and I both went to MIT and value education extremely highly. We too were concerned with the quality of BPS early-grade education. After doing a lot of research it became clear that in this part of the city, elementary schools with excellent staff, good programs and engaged parents were the norm, not the exception.
(Btw, joining the West Zone Parents Group was essential to this discovery. I highly recommend this volunteer-run group to any parent of a prospective BPS student living in the West Zone (WRox, Rosi, JP, Rox, parts of Hyde Park and Mattapan). And try to go to at least a couple live mtgs - actual face-to-face social interaction with other peer-parents has an amazing effect on your confidence to make the right call for your child - whether it's BPS or other. It's also a real lift to meet so many people who care deeply about the future of their children and by extension all the children of our city.
sorry to burst your bubble, but...
Brookline is no Nirvana. I know plenty of kids in BHS and it's a very mixed bag, both vis a vis the quality of education and the social goings-on. Those kids party hard--lots of drugs, lots of drinking and all of the other treats that come with a comfy, suburban lifestyle.
I'm guessing your kids are pretty young. There's a "lottery" element to a lot of parenting and certainly to a lot of the K-12 experience. No matter where you are, your kid will have some good teachers, some bad teachers, some great friends, some bullies. Thinking you can control all of this is just deluding yourself.
Woah!
Wow. Three plus years blogging at http://www.DadToday.com and I doubt I've sparked 50+ comments total, much less for a single post. This clearly strikes a nerve. What's also clear is lots of parents loving their kids deeply and full of bright hopes and high expectations for their educations, which means a lot of WORK no matter what kind of school or where to transform those expectations into schools delivering the best they can for kids; still no easy answers, but lots of reasons to STAY; and in the swirl of possibilities and strong opinions and experiences on all sides of the discussion, a mental note that first above all will be to come to place of agreement with my wife about what path to choose for our kids. Thanks to all for the thoughts and reflections on your experiences a few steps ahead of us.
FYI last West Zone Parents Group for 2010
From the WZPG mailing list: