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Matt Lauer is an idiot
By adamg on Fri, 04/17/2009 - 12:47pm
I know, I repeat myself, but still: He introduced a report on the Craigslist killer this morning like this:
And now a story that's going to terrify anyone who's ever placed a classified ad, especially online.
Props to reporter Jeff Rossen for emphasizing the victim was "a beautiful young woman," because that obviously makes a difference (nice touch, too, with the tracking shots up the victim's body in photos).
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Comments
Craigslist killer
Craigslist killer. Craigslist killer. Craigslist killer.
Is this the newspapers' way of getting back at their nemesis?
I'm sure there's no real
I'm sure there's no real outpouring of sympathy on Morrissey Blvd. for the service itself in this case.
Or at One Herald Square
where they publish the newspaper I first saw this phrase in.
An analogy ...
Before violent movies and violent video games, people got their mass-murder inspiration from The Bible.
Before Craigslist ... well ... Craigslist may be the new kid on the block, but violence is certainly no stranger to The Oldest Profession (as thathottness attests).
Dear Herald
Was this really necessary?
And can we expect glamor shots of the next 17-year-old black kid shot in Roxbury or Mattapan? Or do only bee-yu-tee-ful white women from New York warrant such attention?
So you missed the Globe
So you missed the Globe slide show?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/04/...
Actually, I did
But now that I have seen it, well, the Globe didn't take a glamor shot of her and stick it in an "illustration" with a page of Craigslist postings.
Herald's front page...
...was better than I would've expected.
http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/gal...
They had an interesting interview with a sex worker to push, so, blessedly, the "EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS OF VICTIM SLAIN IN HUB ROOM" was relegated to smaller type.
That interesting interview
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?...
But now that I have seen it,
And that makes all the difference. So much for black murder victims from Roxbury. When you've dug yourself a hole, Adam, put down the shovel.
Globe galleries are a special beast
The Globe sometimes uses its galleries as dumps of images that really should have been culled to a much smaller number, IMHO.
In this case, a gallery of the security camera frame grabs from the police actually makes a lot of sense. They're not photojournalism; they're the police casting out for leads, and the Globe doesn't know which image has the crucial detail.
The photos of the woman, my first guess is that they threw in there because it was a convenient place to put them, if they were doing a gallery the security images anyway. Perhaps also they knew other outlets would be dumping piles of the photos of the woman, and they don't want to be the site that *doesn't* have the photos.
The Herald did something more selective with what Adam was referring to, which is good in that sense, but I think the Herald was conspicuously more sensational.
On Fark.com
On Fark (a website for snarky commentary of the "news"), such a photo is called "What a ______ might look like". They use it for just such an occasion when some sort of file photo is run just for ambiance rather than because it's directly related to the article's subject at all.
Let's just call the Herald's one "what a whore might look like".
Real journalists have been tactfully, and appropriately,
avoiding the labeling of the victim, especially in such ungenerous terms as you employ here. Kind of an asshole comment, to tell you the truth, Kaz.
Really?
Because she's dead she wasn't a whore?
Victim of murder, yes. Prostitute, also yes. Sure, the guy who did this is slime and should be caught, convicted, and put away if not killed...but it doesn't change what she was and neither does the fact that she ended up selling herself to the wrong john.
"Real journalists" (of which I'm not) aren't allowed to say "whore" in print. But I'm just saying what she was "to tell you the truth".
Doncha know
she had a heart of gold?
I think that word is loaded with value judgement
I thought it was effective in your crisp interpretation of Herald subtext.
I think the followup spoiled it.
When going for accuracy in labeling her work, "sex worker," "escort," and "prostitute" sound to me more objective and less judgmental.
Look around
This isn't exactly the Globe's city desk in here. Hell, it's not even the Globe's editorial page. If I wanted to say "prostitute" I would have (and I did!). We all pass judgments on people all the time. Last time I checked, selling sex for money wasn't all that high up on my moral barometer. In fact, maybe she wouldn't be dead if she felt the same way. Just because she died while selling herself for sex on Craigslist doesn't somehow absolve her of her immoral and criminal acts. Prostitution's not murder, but in what warped way does it stop being prostitution just because she was a victim of a worse crime? And if it's prostitution and I think prostitutes are whores (and seriously, look it up, it just says "1. Prostitute" in the dictionary), then I stand by my choice of words.
Geez, you'd think I just advocated for the wholesale slaughter of immigrants or something in here.
Immoral?
If that's how you see it, then the loaded term makes more sense.
Sorta how Adam says "thug," although I think the value judgment implied by "thug" when speaking of a violent criminal is less controversial.
I'd be curious to see a poll of Bostonians, to gauge perceptions of prostitutes. Among college-educated 20ish-30ish men and women, I wouldn't be surprised if concepts like "victim" and (due one popular notion of high-class escort) "empowered" rank much higher than "immoral" and "criminal." I would bet that "victim" would dominate.
This is ridiculous
Since when is it less of a value judgement to call one a thug instead of a whore? If this had been a 17-year old boy from Mattapan who tried to rob someone and got killed, would you be crying out if I called him a thug? Its NO DIFFERENT. A girl who sells sex on craigslist is a whore. This world has gone crazy if it is not ok to call her that. Just because she was a cute little white girl who "was getting her life on track" or whatever crap they feed you, doesn't change things for me. She was a whore. Its sad that she died, sure...but any death is sad. The double standard here is astounding.
Empowered
No, really, she was empowered. You must be really old if you think otherwise. You're just trying to disempower her post-mortem by calling her a whore. You tool of the patriarchy!
Enlightened men like Neil appreciate
whoressexual entrepreneurs because they want to support them on their journey of empowerment. It gives them a warm fuzzy feeling to contribute so much to a young woman's individuation.Reread
I was trying to get at prevailing cultural attitudes, not my own.
How about this?
In the case of the commonplace UH headline using the shorthand "thug" for an unknown assailant who attacked someone, I think that's less controversial than calling a prostitute murder victim a "whore." I even think it's less controversial than referring to a non-murder-victim prostitute as a "whore."
When I say controversial, I'm referring to my perception of attitudes of the population. There are people who consider the person who beats up, shoots, or stabs others to be morally equivalent to the person who performs sex acts for money, and who also believe that the terms are of equivalent vulgarity. I think that there is a larger number of Bostonians -- especially in the demographic I circumscribed -- who disagree with those equivalences.
And, personally, I probably have said "thug" a few times lately, especially when the identity of a criminal is unknown, but I doubt I'll find much use for saying "whore."
So perhaps
You could explain what the difference is between a prostitute and a whore, in your view (or your imagined view of those people not you, whose view you're imagining).
What is it that a whore is or does that is worse than what a prostitute is or does? Is there some way in which you could say "she was a prostitute, but she wasn't a whore?"
Is there a concrete difference between these apparent synonyms, or is it your concept that "whore" is a bad word for prostitute? Is it like the mean way to say prostitute? And we should instead try to say "prostitute" in a nice way?
Would that be helping anybody or anything?
I could be wrong
I expected the dictionary to show "whore" as vulgar, but they don't.
However, I would be very surprised to see the Globe say "whore," but not so much to say "prostitute."
Half the equation
So, Kaz and Anon-a-mouse, do you think women who sell sex for money for whatever reason - like, it pays enough to live on or to live well on or fund a heady drug habit - are whores and it's a moral bad on them and it isn't anything but their own problem?
I suppose that the men who buy sex are just being manly men doing what men do in your world? That they wouldn't continue to up the ante to make it worth a financially stressed woman's while or seek sex for hire if these fallen evile slatterns and Jezebels didn't tempt them into vice with their immoral habits? Or do you have a special derisive moral condemnation for them, too?
Last I checked, the sex-for-hire transaction took at least two people to conduct. If somebody didn't offer money, there wouldn't be a market.
I don't know what Kaz thinks
But I think a man who is comfortable paying for sex has something wrong with him. In many cases, it may be something harmless, a peccadillo or idiosyncrasy. But in other cases, it may be something with greater implications. It may be that no sane woman would want to be in a relationship with the man, and that's why he is driven to prostitutes.
A woman who sells sex puts herself at a greater probability of encountering such men. That is why, even if legalized, it would still be a bad thing to do. That is why I don't believe that ennobling the profession with circumlocutions and euphemisms does anybody any favors.
Pervert
is the only term that comes to mind which carries the same moral force and negative connotations as "whore". Using the term "pervert" to refer to male consumers of flesh-for-sale would be consistently contemptuous of both parties to the consensual transaction.
well there isnt a specific word
that we have developed for them, but loser, lowlife, whore, whatever floats your boat is fine with me. Folks who stoop to paying strangers for sex are even more pathetic and sick. I would have to say they are lower on my moral barometer only because I can see the desperation FOR money as a way for the young women (still a whore) to justify to herself that selling sex is ok. The guys who pay for it, I REALLY just don't get it.
there isn't a specific word?
Do you think that the word "john" does not convey sufficient moral condemnation?
Why, or why not?
lol
the term john cracks me up. I would imagine it is derived from the practice of protecting the identity of these creeps. no, that doesn't cut it ;)
Whoremonger
How about "whoremonger?"
Nice
I refuse to say "LOL" even when it's true, but now I can leave UH for the rest of the day on a high note.
I like that too
I cracked up at that one too. If I mattered or cared enough, I would try to make it catch on. It will be my term of choice from now on.
Good point about etymology
I no longer have an OED, but the etymonline.com entry for "john" says:
Your theory also sounds plausible to me. Perhaps it's both.
Normally, if cultural attitudes are with you well enough, you could increase the negative associations with a term already in use. In this case, however, I think the popularity of the name "John" complicates.
You're always welcome to coin a new term and see if people pick it up. Labeling stereotypical bad Massachusetts drivers as "Massholes" is one neologism that stuck.
Active imagination
Last time I checked, they're both criminals and also both equally accountable for the transaction. Good of you to suppose the dumbest possible argument and then try and hold me up to it. That's a hell of a way to make your case for...well, whatever you were trying to prove. You should also put the thesaurus down before you hurt someone.
Pretty schmucky attitude
And you don't, in fact, know exactly what services the unfortunate young woman was providing.
Right.
And the woman in Rhode Island who was robbed by the same guy really only likes to dance for cash in hotel rooms. If she wasn't a prostitute, then why are all of her friends bending over backwards to make sure people know that she was "trying to do better"? (Guilt.) Why would she advertise "massage services" in the "erotic" section of Craigslist? (Because she knew her clientele.) She was getting good money to perform sex acts during "massages" and she needed the money because she had money problems. Even one of her friends defending her said that her stories never made sense. She wasn't a licensed massage therapist. She was a "model" with aspirations of being an actress. She would take $1000 gigs to walk around parties half naked.
Does being judgmental about a dead person....
...really make you feel better about yourself? You seem very invested in trashing the victim.
Nope
You're not new here, so I would have thought you might have noticed me giving my opinion on the day's news here before. Sometimes more than once a story! In this case, I just don't see the point in overly coddling the victim who put herself in a bad situation just for some cash. It's an absolute shame that she's dead. It's also a shame she chose to behave the way she did. Not addressing the incorrect behavior simply because she's dead now doesn't benefit anything. Does ignoring her disposition make you feel better about her?
What I am seeing more and more here
Is the ever-increasing predominance of self-important loudmouths. Too bad. I had hoped Universal Hub would not go the way of the Wicked Good conference.
Whatever
You could always do us the favor of reducing the number of self-important loudmouths by one all by yourself.
It's funny, when you were in agreement with my posts I didn't hear anything about my self-importance ruining the site.
Yeah, Kaz
You know the cuisine, but do you know the menu? Hah?
More useful, perhaps, would have been to release
the entire video clips of the alleged perpetrator, along with the still photos we've already seen. Might not make that much difference, but it could help.
By the way, who said she was white? She looks sorta Latino to me.
"a beautiful young woman"
I thought Bostonist did a really good job putting the media coverage in perspective yesterday:
"Brisman's death, no doubt tragic, is just the worst case scenario for a Boston sex worker. Brisman's murder was linked to an earlier robbery at the Westin Copley, and cops investigating the case have opened a flood gate of unreported robberies among Boston's escorts. It happens all the time.
Violence against women, which goes unreported even within marriages and other legal relationships, is a daily reality for sex workers and one that they can do little to combat."
http://bostonist.com/2009/04/16/boston_blotter_more_details_on_crai.php
Here's an idea to combat it:
Here's an idea to combat it: LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION! This happens because prostitutes have to operate in the shadows and are afraid to call the police...
Should we legalize cocaine
Should we legalize cocaine and sell it in stores near the candy aisle?
Come on kid, we live in a city where schmuck bike riders can't even obey a red traffic light and you want to complicate the law on moral issues?
Just because you have to pay for it doesn't mean everyone wants to. Just buy a girl 10 drinks at Joshua Tree and show them your triple decker like Neuman does.
Hmm
I wonder what would happen if they did something like they did with pot. It's not legal, but you just get a ticket. But, just as dealers are still hit with criminal charges, so would pimps.
pimps
The pimp would actually be safer for a lot of these women because if the guy who picked up the prostitute knew there might be a pimp around....he might think again about hurting/killing the prostitute....
drivers
My understanding from reviewing the listings is that some of the women have a "driver" who performs much the same security function as a pimp.
Some of the women (foolishly?) advertise that they do not have a driver, as a selling point.
right
"driver"/"pimp" same thing. I would say most of the women on craigs list are drug dependent and have a male "partner" who does drive them to these "appointments" to make sure that money for drugs is secured for the both of them.
The more expensive the "appointment" is, the less likely drugs are involved, and the .....er how should I put this.....better the product is.
Husbands
In the case of the "private dancer" in RI, the husband performed the role of a
pimpdriver.Is this a product of the economic downturn? It seems really strange to me.
Security for whom?
Who is to say the pimp always cares about the prostitute? In many cases, the prostitute is effectively the pimp's captive. She often owes him money for drugs, and he threatens her into prostitution.
Women and girls being kidnapped and being forced into prostitution by pimps isn't as common here as in other parts of the world, but I wouldn't say this country is immune to that problem either.
Bleeding heart crap
Look, if you want to focus on the problems that cause a woman to decide that selling herself for sex so that they don't have to feel like it's a way out of their problems, then that's a valid concern.
Acting like we, as a society, didn't do enough to "protect" sex workers from violence...get off it. By that standard, we don't do enough to "protect" crackheads from getting beaten by their dealers and mob lackeys from getting whacked. Sex CRIMES are just that. A higher proportion of the clientele are going to be scum because they can't get sex normally from a relationship. If the prostitutes want to combat the daily reality of violence against women, then they could start by getting out of a life of sex crimes to begin with.
Prostitutes don't deserve to be beaten or killed by any means, but I also don't have a lot of compassion for someone who's ignoring the law and knowingly putting themselves in potentially dangerous situations regularly, just hoping their number doesn't come up.
I nearly choked on my coffee
I nearly choked on my coffee when I heard him say that this morning - somehow, I don't think this guy's going after people selling furniture. Is it really that taboo to just call a spade a spade and say that he's targeting prostitutes advertising on Craigslist?
Nah- call him whatever it takes to make sure
that the cops can actually catch him. Remember how, in "The Wire", McNulty had to "invent" a particularly gruesome serial killer in order to get the resources to effectively target Marlo's murderous gang? Although not exactly the same, the psychology seems a bit similar here. The more media hype, the more attention paid by the mayor, police commissioner, etc. Serial killers "targeting prostitutes", dating back to Jack the Ripper, have perhaps, historically, been more likely to get away with their crimes because their victims are social outcasts. If more people being afraid means that more police will be assigned to the case, I'm all for calling him the Craigslist Killer.
Also, I wonder if "Craig" or whoever actually maintains Craigslist is cooperating with police?
It's disturbing that he was able to, apparently, set up another meeting just last night.
They use phones
The media make a huge deal out of it either because it's a sensational story that everyone knows the audience eats up like crazy, or because it's for the public good. (Oh, and it doesn't hurt to cast aspersions on revenue-stealing CL, as someone pointed out, though the more respectable media will be careful about the conflict of interest they have there.)
It appears that the sex workers who advertise on CL almost universally provide phone numbers in their ads. It also appears that there are pretty common practices they mention to at least verify a personal phone number, which would thwart all but the most savvy bad guys if the encounter turns into a criminal investigation. CL generally has no means of tracking who contacts the workers. I'm sure the authorities were pursuing the various phone records immediately.
Well, there is a Numb3rs-ish thing that might be done with the help of some information CL might have, but it's highly speculative and work-intensive, and in the end probably wouldn't give any information not already plain in the phone records.
yes there really is a craig...
craig newmark is the founder of craigslist, he's a real dude, and a nice dude at that. he just posted a comment about craigslist and crime on his blog.
craig and jim buckmaster (the current CEO of CL, and another very nice dude) both cooperate with the police in situations like this. while they may not be shouting from the roof tops, i can vouch for the fact that they care and will do everything they can to help.
THANK YOU (about Matt Lauer,
THANK YOU (about Matt Lauer, or his writers, being total buffoons)!
I also found it odd that she was portrayed as "innocent" and that it happened "in her own room". Also odd that the fact that she was a prostitute was never brought up, just that she was advertising as a "message therapist". Granted, I believe that prostitution should be decriminalized, and to each his/her own and all that, but the Bostonist reference sums it up. Prostituting yourself on Craigslist to random people (and inviting them to "your own hotel room") is not the safest practice...
simple solution
Craigslist requires the person advertising these sort services to provide a valid phone number and pay a nominal fee with a credit card. Why not require the same for people responding to the ads?
Unnecessary and a liability
I think that doesn't give significant security beyond what workers already have, and it put CL closer to being a pimp.
I think the whole anonymous style...
is what makes criaglist criaglist...
yes
For a short period in Boston, CL was mostly warm-fuzzy Bay Area sensibility, for people who knew of CL due to having Bay Area connections.
Then every sketchy person ever born discovered the CL anonymous forums and reputed hookup opportunities, and CL became what it is today.
You can still see the warm-fuzzy side of CL in select people on CL, such as when roommate-hunting, trading furniture, or dating. But it's still a minefield on those lists.
I myself am currently scared of encountering crazy people on CL, after an incredibly bad experience, even though in the past CL has introduced me to a few absolutely wonderful people (including the woman I should've married).
Meanwhile ...
Some of us simply use the search engines to buy and sell kayaks, swap an older 12 speed touring bike for some kids bikes, unload an outgrown swingset or dollhouse, purchase tickets to an event, sell the outgrown kids bikes and venture into the seamier classifications for the sake of amusement only.
Almost forgot
CL forsale lists paid for my groceries this week. :)
Recently sold some used tires on CL
Had a Russian guy with a phony c-note try to pull the old "write me a check for the balance" scam. If CL was ever "SF flowers in your hair", it sure isn't any more, at least in Boston.
The CL forsale lists have been quite bad for years
I now only sell things on CL that cannot be sold on eBay because they're not practical to ship.
SwirlyGrrl might have had better luck due to dealing in children's items.
Most times I try to sell something on CL, the responses are overwhelmingly from druggies, crazies, scammers, and flakes (and that's putting it charitably).
I have an ongoing joke with a friend of mine about this. I announce that I'm about to post something for sale on CL, and that it won't be as bad this time. Of course, the audience sees it coming when the mindbogglingly imbecilic responses start rolling in. Then I work up a great, bug-eyed, spittle-spraying rant.
I now like to explicitly write in my CL forsale ads something to the effect that crazy people need not respond, and to ask them to please say in their response when they can pick up the item. That, and aggressively deleting responses from people who sound like typical CL crazies, makes it tolerable.
Another favorite CL trick of mine is, if I have something that I want to give away for free, rather than posting it in the "free" list, I post it under a topical forsale list, and only mention the free part in the description. My theory is that's more likely to get it to a good home, and weed (pun) out lots of the crazy people scouring the free lists, who generally waste lots of your time and never show. Asking a nominal amount of money also helps: crazy people might not take time and transportation costs into account when they're committing to pick something up, so $5 is infinitely more expensive to them.
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