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Boston a walking city? Visiting Brit says 'hah!'
By adamg on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 11:03am
Also, he's disappointed he couldn't get into Cheers and says it isn't marketed enough. Makes some good points about our insane intersections, but one of his points is how there's almost no parkland along the Charles - somehow he missed the entire Esplanade. Also, the Freedom Trail is confusing. Hmm, maybe he was just cranky because of jet lag or something.
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Comments
He also apparently missed
He also apparently missed Cambridge!
Yeah, not much of a walkable place
And not much of a college town, either.
Oh, hey
I got that one!
Hours of operation
From the Cheers Web site:
"Open Daily at 11:00 a.m."
If someone's going to be disappointed in a city because they can't start drinking at breakfast time, then I could see why they'd find Boston to be a letdown.
If someone's going to Cheers
If someone's going to Cheers to get a Boston experience, also, that would be a letdown.
Two birds, one stone
Hard to get from "Cheers" to the Museum of Science ... and no way to walk along the river?
Looks like he could have killed two birds with one stone there... along the river is the way to walk from "Cheers" to the Museum of Science. I guess he never thought of using a footbridge.
But then again "footbridge" probably means something different in England, like a traditional stags-horn tool for cleaning toe jam.
Charles River Park
I'm guessing he was following a map that didn't show the footbridges, and in an attempt to cut through to the Museum of Science he probably got lost in the former West End. That area is legitimately pedestrian unfriendly.
What's next...
Complain about all the people with straight teeth? Food is too good?
Missing out on Cheers is a blessing, guv'ner. Take your silly constipated arse back across the pond.
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who and the what now?
Boston an Unfriendly City?
What a pathetic response.
I have the audacity to praise your city for everything except the signage for pedestrians and you launch into personal attack.
It was one of Boston's finest who directed us along past the eye hospital and over the footbridge, because I stopped him and asked. Perhaps he wasn't local enough for you and you should call him constipated too.
Bandying around pathetic national stereotypes is no good for anyone. I called you city as I saw it - and I loved it. You're resorting to aged stereotypes. good work. Intelligent comments.
I guess you don't work in tourism.
Read the article, before you go slagging people off, or you'll soon find you have no tourists at all.
Boston is as tourist-indifferent...
...as any tourist destination I've encountered.
But the lack of adequate signage affects lots of residents (when they get into less familiar areas of the city) as muc as it does visitors.
Oh, it's more than that
As Johnny Lyle notes, Boston is beautiful city -- at least in certain parts. (Sorry, just can't let go of my ongoing rant about City Hall and the rest of that butt-ugly 'hood.)
More broadly, however, Boston is one of the unfriendliest cities towards newcomers and visitors that I've ever seen. In addition, there is a culture of meanness, insularity, corruption, and deep insecurity here that prevents the city from being truly great.
A few years ago, around the time of the Democratic Convention and the Red Sox series win, I thought this city was primed to be America's great "mid-major" city of the 21st century. There was a buzz about it that I'd never seen before.
I don't feel that way any more. Greater Boston's historical significance, colleges & universities, and high tech & health care sectors should always give it a boost. But the fundamental civic culture absolutely sucks, and I don't think it will be changing any time soon.
Everything went downhill on Oct 27, 2004
Everything was fine until October 27, 2004. Following that, smugness and self-righteousness became acceptable.
As did douchebaggery.
October 27, 2004?
What was that, the day Curt Schilling endorsed Bush?
Now that was cryptic
WTF was that supposed to mean.
he's referring to...
... the 2004 world series.
and i believe implying that boston went to hell after that.
clearly not a die-hard sox fan ;)
Oh -- I assumed it was baseball-related....
..but did not see what it had to do with the presence (or absence) of real civic pride and general civility. ;~}
I have no problems with Government Plaza
...as it is (ignoring the way it was created -- and all the associated damage to the West End -- which is a whole different issue).
There is also a general lack of civic pride (people throwing trash on sidewalks (even when 5 feet away from a garbage can), tossing trash out car windows, etc.
I wonder why Boston -- unlike it sister city Kyoto (for instance) has never developed any sort of culture of "make your city look its best" and "treat visitors nice"?
(There was a historic preservation conference a few weeks ago focused on Kyoto and Boston -- which I can't report on because I missed it -- due to a doctor's appointment).
To be fair we are nice to
To be fair we are nice to tourists to their FACES. As for the anti-tourist talk after hours I think the only people who notice are new comers who stay here long enough for the locals to let their hair down around them. Also honestly the fancy part of Boston is now more newcomer and tourist then natives anyway.
As for trash I believe this to be an American problem. I have friends from other large cities and they comment on how clean the streets are even in poor areas. I've never had a friend, from an urban area originally, visit and comment on how bad Boston is compared to X in America.
I have....
I have had a friend say that once, but their credibility went flying out the window faster than the words out their mouth, because they're from Filth-a-delphia!
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who and the what now?
Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco are Urban Areas
So is San Diego. Boston is pretty grungy and dirty by comparison.
My whole organization went to Portland and people commented on how clean it was, even in dim corners and non-commercial areas and neighborhoods (I led a bike tour - and it wasn't a tourist approved bike tour, either!). Moreover, a person with some mobility issues was thrilled at how well maintained and safe the sidewalks were.
If you never have visitors from outside of the Northeast, of course they wouldn't notice the dirt. Boston may be wayyyyy cleaner than it was when I got here in 1984, but it is still very grungy and run-down compared to similarly-sized or larger Canadian cities and many west coast cities.
San Francisco?
Outside of a couple of tourist neighborhoods, San Francisco is a rotting pigsty, and its infrastructure is possibly even worse off than Boston's. Portland and Seattle are lovely, it's true, but San Francisco is a mess.
I see you love your high
I see you love your high class WHITE cities, with Seattle and Portland being 70 and 75 percent white. Would you care to direct me to the poor areas of these cities as I did a search for Seattle bad areas in google and the first thing I found was a forum where the writer said Seattle has no real Ghettos but pockets of this little area are a little rough.
Whats that Cambridge has a great school system? Well I would hope so spending 23,000 a year on the students!
Monaco is a delight you say? Well I guess it's the money oozing out of every pore.
Oh your single 45 year old lawyer friend has a new fancy car while your other friend who is a single mother of two who works as a paralegal is driving a minivan?
Sure is easy when you get rid of the poor people huh? Imagine what Boston and NYC city would be like with no poor people. Oh thats right they would look like Seattle and Portland.
Strawman Alert!
So you are saying that people of color mean trash? That's mighty white of you Shady.
Again, explain how the Canadian cities of similar vintage are so much cleaner than Boston, eh? The eastern ones.
Portland does have poverty. I know because I fucking grew up in it! I fucking worked in a dangerous neighborhood during the summer - but you think it must have been clean and safe because it was impoverished white people, I guess. You know what though? Even trailer courts and slums are cleaner when people don't throw shit out their windows and bellow about how it is their god given right. When the city actually picks shit up, rather than send out narcissist politicians to grandstand about it and disappear, and civil servants actually do their jobs.
Seattle had Tongs - and I don't mean the kitchen type. Look it up.
Also, easier to have fewer poor people when you have jobs and transportation and urban planning and development. Which is why the western cities and Canadian cities fare better - people can afford housing, get around, etc.
As for "lawyer friend": BWAHAHAHAHAH! Most of the people I hung out with in high school who are still around are working class people - cops, firefighters, teachers, auto mechanics, bookeepers, homemakers, etc. They can afford houses NOT because they are wealthy professionals, but because the city PLANNED TO KEEP HOUSING AFFORDABLE.
Gee - imagine that - controlling zoning and density to keep prices down. What a radical upscale idea - not. So much more sensible to permit a situation where only the elderly (who bought long ago and don't need jobs) and wealthy can afford to live. Get rid of that pesky middle class and you can have a political dynasty.
Your views of these areas
Your views of these areas and those that I find online are quite different. The records on demographics all seem to point away from your personal experiences...
As for your comments involving race I think that is a low blow. I was just pointing out that the cities you seem to love so much are very very very very white. It is amusing that your answer to my calling you out on your choice of white cities is Canada.
Who do you think does most of the posting online?
I went to a high school in Seattle where there were frequent shootings and gang fights. Our graduation rate was about 30%. This didn't get much coverage in the media. I always wished I could go to one of those schools I read about in the newspapers where kids were winning awards and putting on plays and things.
It's the same now that stuff is online. People going to schools like mine aren't writing about how much it sucks. People also aren't writing about how crappy their neighborhood is.
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http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Yet were here and ya'll are
Yet were here and ya'll are complaining about how much the schools suck here and how crappy the neighberhoods are.
You Upper West Coast People are very confusing because it seems like you want it both ways. Its clean but the city is a shit hole is what Im hearing between the two of you.
Um what?
No, it has shitty parts, just like every city.
What.
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http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Statler
Statler:
Waldorf: Yes, and that's just in one comment thread!
Tough choice
Choice A: we could read Johnny Lyle's blog. Choice B: we might soon have no tourists at all.
Unfortunately, it's not terribly credible. I don't think one whingeing pom more or less is really going to cause a trend.
One whingeing Pom
Hi Sock-puppet... Johnny was one of six (I am one of the others)... And we are doing a report for our local Regional Development Agency. And the local City Council. There is a lot of interest here back home in what we are doing. You are right - one pom won't cause a trend but surely you must have realised that the damage done by one disgruntled customer outweighs the good done by ten? We were complimentary about your City - I think after a period of mature reflection and perhaps reading Johnnys blog again - you will realise that your take on this is a bit off beam? TG
Disgruntled customers
Oy Timmy me boy. I am pleased as punch to hear that the report on Boston to the Regional Development Agency of Stumpswich-on-Chesstwiddle won't be entirely negative. Perhaps, based on your sympathy and appreciation of our crooked bricks, you will consider investing your City Council retirement fund with Fidelity. That would be more relevant to the business of Boston than "Cheers."
I think that one of the misconceptions you came here with is that tourism is of vital interest to Boston. Yes it's true that Boston is one of the top ten tourist destinations in the US. This is one of the oldest cities in the country, with many interesting historical sites. But as compared to the rest of the economy of the city and the region, tourism is simply not that important. Very few of us work in tourism or directly benefit from tourism. Tourists in Boston mostly go places that few actual Bostonians would ever go - even places that are entirely fictional, such as "Cheers." Mostly the people who deal with tourists are low-rent losers who couldn't get real jobs, fleecing the gawkers on behalf of huge multinational corporations.
You aren't my customer. You aren't our customer. If none of you come back all it will do to me is improve traffic and shut down some of the city's worst restaurants.
Among the things that are much more important than tourism to Boston and Bostonians are high technology, health services, education, manufacturing, and financial services. All of these are much more important to the economy and culture of our city and state than traipsing hordes of rubberneckers. If you want to hurt us, you could threaten to stop using our hospitals, universities, and financial services. That would be more relevant.
I think it's fabulous you've gotten your local agency to pay for your junket. More power to you. Do you have any real industries in Stottingham-under-Wiltswhistle besides tourism? Footbridge whittling, perhaps? I do hope you'll report back.
Oh man, now I really do not
Oh man, now I really do not want to read this report, you just screwed up the grade for the rest of us!
I think you are wrong about tourism though. If tourism was not important to the economy we would simply stop doing it. The truth of the matter is that tourists are crazy people who spend lots of money and expect little in return. 40 dollars for a little jaunt around the city in a bus? Why not! Crappy food and drink at a place that was the basis of a tv show? Yessir! Tourism creates that steady boost of traffic to many parts of the city that may otherwise not be of much use if only locals used them. Tourism also bolsters local institutions, history and allows the preservation of areas and buildings that make Boston Boston. While all those other things you mentioned may rake in big dollars the concept of "Boston" itself is very helpful in bringing people into the city to work, go to school and spend money. Take tourism out of the mix and people will forget we are here, it keeps us on the map which is good for every other aspect of our economy and culture.
Also I realize you disdain these "low rent losers" but just because you did not go to BC, BU or Harvard does not mean you should not have a job. These people need to be employed and fleecing tourists is better then flipping burgers in Somerville. If they were not fleecing tourists and had no job they would be robbing you to make ends meet, I prefer it this way.
The embodiment of "true Boston spirit"
Unfortunately.
I wonder what percentage of (life-long) Boston residents actually thinks like this?
Boy, do we look petty by comparison
Indeed, this is unfortunate and -- in the context of how this makes all of us look -- mortifying.
Many years ago, I spent my final semester of college in an overseas study program in England. Short on cash but eager to be adventurous, I decided to hitch a ride for my first trip into London, holding up a "USA student to London" sign. After a bit of standing on the motorway, a fellow pulled over and said he wasn't going all the way to London but could get me several towns closer. Tired of waiting by the road, I hopped in.
We started to talk about history and such, and he explained to me that his late father had been helped in some way by U.S. soldiers during WWII. So he took me to the U.S. military cemetary and gave me a short tour. He then treated me to tea with his family and -- in very touching gesture -- took me to the train station, paid for my ticket to London, and bid me adieu.
I've been to Britain many times since then, and I have always been welcomed as a visitor. I know many others who have felt the same way.
Too bad, via this exchange, we are not reciprocating. At least our visitors can say they have experienced a part of the real Boston...
When my wife and I visited England and Wales way back in 1979...
...we were treated wonderfully everywhere we went (except London -- where we were pretty inconspicuous -- and weren't treated any differently from anyone else).
London is woefully mis-marked for pedestrian access
Every time you try to follow the sign for "Subway," you just end up on the other side of the road.
They've got a lot of nerve complaining about our signage! Johnny Pom probably thought "esplanade" was Spanish for 'information booth.'
Petty
No David - not all of you.
I found Bostonians to be a friendly lot whilst we were in town. I guess you always get some muppet who can't follow the plot.
We were a bit taken aback at some of the hostility here, but I guess its the guys who have nothing better to do...
Glad the UK was welcoming - and we know that it is just a couple of folks who are having a pop!
Regards!
Nothing better to do
See, Timmy, it's not our job to cater to you. If we were the dismal denizens of a long-failed empire whose only other option was the dole and beans on toast for tea in the council flats, then we'd be happy to bow and grin for you. But actually we have jobs. We have industries. These things take a lot of time. So we'd be happy to answer a question if you need to ask now and then, but when it comes to rearranging our city to suit your fancy, or keeping fictional businesses open longer for your benefit, no, we really do have better things to do.
Disgruntled?
Sock_puppet - don't flatter yourself!
Our report isn't about your City! It is to look at world class attractions across the world - and the USA was the first part of that! We saw attractions in LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Boston, Plymouth and New York.
31 attractions in 8 days and a report to write is not really a Junket.
I think you miss the point about tourism. Someone wiser than me said 'treat all visitors as angels...you never know'. Pretty good advice I think.
You all seem a bit hung up on the Cheers Bar - two out of six of the group went there! They were fans of the show! Johnny was making a point about signage - they weren't looking for beer at 10.00am! Honest!
I have not heard of footbridge whittling - I assume this is a local delicacy in Boston? We do have some great businesses here thanks.
You could learn a lot from the very nice folks at Plymouth - who (despite their close proximity to you seem a million miles from you culturally and intellectually?
And remember the angels!
All in good fun Johnny
Johnny, I'm just a wiseass, don't mind me.
I truly appreciate anyone who visits our city, honestly. And I'm glad that you did.
While I personally don't care for the Cheers Bar, I don't have any problem who really wants to visit it. But it doesn't measure up to a true British pub, I"m sure.
Thanks for visiting, writing, and responding.
Sam
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who and the what now?
Brits love that Cheers show
Though not this Brit, apparently. So why'd he walk a mile and a half to visit it, of all the things there are to see in Boston?
I always try to talk visitors out of the Bull & Finch Cheeahs Bah, as they're inevitably disappointed that the interior looks nothing like the TV set, and that it sucks hard like the idiot tourist attraction it is.
If you're going to do the Moron's Guidebook Tour, hit the Quincy Market Cheers, which at least mimics the look of the TV show. Then you can go shopping at the same 25 national chain stores found in every American mall, which I'm guessing, since you wanted to see the Cheers Bar, will also be "right up your street".
I have to agree from what I
I have to agree from what I understand the Bull and Finch was a great place 30 years ago before Cheers made it famous. Now it is just dreadful. It is a tourist dive but does not look like the bar on the show. I have been there twice due to friends insisting on going and have since refused to pacify any future guests with the request to go back. I insist that if they want to go to "Cheers" that we hit up Quincy Market since at least it looks like the show would.
True, that
I find the Freedom Trail more boring than the Cheers bar, with all its historic buildings and such.
Adam, I'm not sure whether he was criticizing the lack of marketing at the Bull & Finch or a bar in Nottingham.
And he was right about the Massacre site
Which is almost as boring as Plymouth Rock, but even less visible.
But I love the Freedom Trail, so don't you go dissin' my favorite red line!
it happenened in the middle of the street...
so... that's where the "monument" is.
i guess it makes sense but it is kind of stupid.
and plymouth rock is totally overrated. boring. snoozefest.
I read his blog and
I read his blog and didn't have a problem with his comments (except for missing the Esplanade). There's a reason he didn't know the best route to the Museum of Science. Signage in US cities -- especially for pedestrians -- is pretty bad and Boston is no exception. Can't fault him for that. As for Cheers ... though it's easy to ignore as a resident, this is what most tourists look for on Beacon Hill. My advice for tourists is to check out The Sevens instead of Bull & Finch. It's Beacon Hill, very friendly, good beer selection.
My advice for tourists
Stop somebody and ask a question. If he asked "How do I get to the Charles River," somebody surely could have told him.
I ask for directions all the
I ask for directions all the time when I am walking around Boston as I am quasi suburbanite who does not walk the city often. This results in ironic situations where I am standing there with a Boston accent getting directions from a girl with a southern twang who seems to know where everything is. Most people will help, I do not know how we got the label "unfriendly".
Or be even more proactive
If I'm in one of the more tourist-heavy parts of town, or in a T station, and I see someone staring at a map with a look of utter confusion, I almost always stop and as if they need any help finding something. Most of the time, they're grateful for the assist.
Grateful
I try to do the same, and most do express their thanks with a smile and sometimes a pleasant word.
The one exception I've run into happened a few years ago, walking past a man-woman-two-kids family unit in the "Theatre" District who were displaying the classic disoriented-tourist symptoms. "May I help you find something?" I offered. The woman shrank back with fear in her eyes and shouted "NO!"
I wondered where the hell they were from, but I wasn't about to ask...
i do too
I live north of the city, near NH but know my way around pretty well. You can spot the confused very easily and often times i will stop and offer assistance. Sometimes it's a big mistake because then the person will presume you to automatically be their tour guide for the day and ask 10,000 questions. Sometimes you get away quickly with a "thanks!" at the end. and only once have i had someone tell me to "feck off".
musta beena brit. ;-)
Anyway -- johnny probably could have had a better tour of the city from people who know their way around really well and know the footbridges, the esplanade, and all the cool hip un-touristy non-"Cheers" kinds of places.
perhaps before your next visit to our commonwealth and crown jewel, dear heart, you will drop us a line and announce you're coming.
I am positive the anglo-fans (jo? me? sure!) will step up to show you around town, to all the great stuff to see, and show you the best walking from point A to point B there is to be found.
The offer stands, sir. I also work in Salem, MA... so if you're ever up this way, I'd be glad to show you around this burgh.
cheers,
cg
Just a fair warning, if you
Just a fair warning, if you do visit Salem and were offended by the commercial ventures of the MOS please PLEASE for the love of god do not go to Salem between late September and Early November. I love Salem but the place goes all plastic and commercial during that time period to suck in the tourist dollars.
Yeah, seriously. Signage in
Yeah, seriously.
Signage in Boston does suck, but people will help. I was running the other day, and some Germans were walking up and down the wrong side of the river looking for Harvard. I pointed them over the bridge and hopefully they were good. People really are helpful.
He also thought the Duck
He also thought the Duck tours were hop on and off, which they aren't at all.
No, it's true!
It's quite pedestrian.
Esplanade, yes
But there's an 8-lane superhighway cutting it off from the city.
Depends where you are
If you're at North Station, yes.
Beacon Hill? They've got footbridges.
agreed
yeah, us locals know all about the Esplanade, but it's not exactly attached to much else in the city. Storrow cuts it off with the exception of a few footbridges, and it's really not visible from any of the major tourist areas.
So if you know what you're looking for and how to get there, yes the Esplanade is wonderful. But otherwise it's rather hidden to outsiders.
Yes
Yes, and our snooty neighbors in the Back Bay would like to keep it that way ...
In this particular case
In this case, the guy was at the Bull & Finch/Cheers Bar and wanted to walk to the Science Center while also seeing the river.
Instead of turning left and going to the footbridge that you can see from SPACE, he turned right and wandered through the city complaining about the lack of attractive views of the river. Sorry that the Esplanade doesn't abut Fanueil Hall or the Old North Church, but if you want to see the river on your stroll to the Science Center, it's possible and doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Here in the New World...
...Boston is about as walkable a "mid-major" city as you'll get. Okay, so a comparable Old World city may be more walkable, and more picturesque than, say, anything around our hideous Govt Center/City Hall fiasco (unless, of course, WWII bombed it out). But on this side of the pond, Boston does okay for us hoofers.