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Could Acela possibly be too fast?
By adamg on Fri, 12/18/2009 - 10:26am
I know, I know, sounds silly for a train that, at best, only gets to top speed on small sections of track in Rhode Island. But that's exactly the problem, Paul Levy recently reported the driver of the 4 p.m. Boston-bound train always seems to go too fast on that stretch:
... Last week, when I took it (Dec 1), you could actually smell the asbestos in the back car as he had to jam on the brakes before going over one of the bridges. ...
Levy isn't one of those bloggers who just sits at his keyboard and whines, so he actually fired off a complaint to Amtrak, which said it would get back to him in a month or so:
Four weeks = 28 trains. Thousands of passengers. A potential safety hazard.
Four weeks?
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Comments
Hmmm...
This actually might be more indicative of a more serious issue with the braking system in the Acela trainsets or this particular one he happened to be riding. These trainsets are reaching the 10-year-old mark and will be due for a mid-life overhaul soon, so it's likely that what he's smelling isn't all that unusual. Amtrak should check nonetheless.
Also, it was my understanding that the stretch between Rte 128 and Providence and then the track south of Providence are the zones in which Acela is allowed to run the fastest (up to 150MPH). It's up to Amtrak to actually check the computer logs of the train to see if the train was indeed speeding, but I'd be surprised if FRA regulations didn't require speed limiters to prevent it from going above 150MPH.
Further, not having any other ground transportation that travels at 150MPH for reference makes it difficult for one to definitively say that a train is necessarily speeding. The only way to know is to clock the train using a GPS device on board, but even then, GPS signal can be pretty crappy from inside those aluminum/steel Faraday cages and can provide an inaccurate reading - I discovered this on a recent trip a couple of months ago when I tried to clock Acela on that stretch of track since it was my first (and likely only time for the next few months) ride on that train.
Northeast Corridor actually
Northeast Corridor actually uses a signal system that, besides making sure the trains don't hit each other, also automatically slows the trains down for things like curves or bridges with speed restrictions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACSES
The engineer might not have good skills to keep the ride comfortable for passengers, but the ACSES system makes sure they are not going too fast for the curves.
Train control
The train control system will also stop the train if the engineer exceeds the speed limit.
Also applying the brakes doesn't mean he was speeding. Areas can have unexpected speed restrictions. For example, if he's going 150 and knows there's a 10mph section coming up, he can slow down with advanced notice. But if it's an unusual restriction, he'll get notice in his cab that speed is now 100mph and he has X second to comply before the train will automatically stop, so he may be breaking sooner and quicker than expected.
But again, they can't really 'speed' because they feel like it.
"smell the asbestos"
Asbestos is odorless. Mr. Levy's statement that that he can smell it is without merit. While he may (or may not) know something about how fast an Acela train can safely slow down, he does not state that. His implication that it is too fast because he can "smell the asbestos" is reckless.
Citation: http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/main/faq.html
I know the smell of burning brakes
I always assumed that was the asbestos in brake pads or calipers. Maybe it is some other compound. But you know it when you smell it. The porter was very clear that it was the smell of the brakes being applied hard.
And, please don't call me reckless for bringing forth a potential safety concern, especially when the staff on the train are making jokes about how fast the guy is going.
(BTW, at one point in my life, I actually was in charge of railway safety in the state...)
asbestos
Mr Levy is obviously uninformed on mechanical systems.
What he is smelling is the brakes heating up when slowing, which can be smelled on all trains (even regional service), as well as on automobiles after hard braking.
(a non-issue)
Obviously?
Maybe it is that I am uniformed on mechanical systems. But thanks for confirming that the smell occurs after hard braking.
But, boy, are you missing the point.
As a good citizen (and loyal customer), I send a note to Amtrak on what appears to be a safety concern, and they say they they will get back in four weeks. If it is not a concern, wouldn't you want to let your customer know that before four weeks have gone by. If it is a concern, wouldn't you want to thank the customer for bringing it to you attention.
Maybe amtrak doesnt give a
Maybe amtrak doesnt give a crap (nor should they) about back seat engineers that think they have any idea what the speed limit is on every section of track and if the train is exceeding it.
Did this incident happen during the fall, during leaf season? If so, you have a lot more to learn about trains and how they stop.
I wouldn't have said anything . . .
if the porters on the train had not indicated that they notice the same thing -- regularly on this particular train.
But, dear J, this isn't about me.
Leaves?
But now you have me curious. Please explain about leaves . . . .
I think J is on a slippery rail
Funny how your "advisors" here didn't bother to read the bit about what you were in charge of before you started running a hospital ...
This is also the same line where in 2002 or 2003 my MIL and a couple dozen other passengers were trying to get off the train at 128 and it just took off! They had to back it up to the platform to get everybody off - and pick up the conductors who weren't able to get back on!
But, hey, making a correct but miniscule technical point that completely disregards the larger reality and declaring that the picky point defeats that larger reality is part and parcel of all forms of climate change denial and intelligent design "proofs".
He was Duke's DPU man, yes
He was Duke's DPU man, yes the DPU has oversight over rail bus/safety, but that hardly makes him an expert on train braking proceedures.
He had never heard of the ACES signal system, didn't know train brakes don't use asbestos, sorry Paul, but in this case you seem like a bit of a chicken little in your initial reaction.
It is not a safety issue, so if Amtrak takes 4 months to get back to you, its not the end of the world.
When the leaves fall on the
When the leaves fall on the tracks, and get crushed, they ooze leaf slime. That makes it very hard for trains to stop. The MBTA deploys a special train that powerwashes the rails, but until it gets everywhere, youll note that many commuter trains are delayed because they have to run slower, or, many times theyll overshoot a platform and have to reverse. Riding the commuter rail during October means the smell of train brakes is overpowering.
Amtrak faces the same issue. I know the Acela can drop sand on the tracks, but the ooze still causes the brakes to work overtime (hence the smell). Im not sure if amtrak washes their rails.
Basically, if your amtrak train has trouble stopping or overshoots a platform, it's the fault of the leaves, not the engineer.
Why the snotty attitude?
Seems a little excessive -- and out of place.
auto-response?
I suspect that the reply Mr. Levy received was an automatic one, set up so that customers at least realize that their message has been received. I do not know, but strongly suspect, that Amtrak's customer service is understaffed. As the budget has been squeezed, they've probably been on the losing end. It could be literally true that the people who read emails are days behind in plowing through the messages. As such, they may want to give the customer a brief reassurance that their email did not get lost, but not make any promises while doing so that would apply to all messages. Some of the messages they receive will almost certainly be assigned a low priority, and maybe those ones will only receive a response in a month.
I will be curious to see how long it takes for you to receive a follow-up. Until then, I would like to give Amtrak the benefit of the doubt.
Acela brake problems
Wasn't it brake problems that forced Amtrak to pull all of the Acela service in 2005?
Why, yes it was.
The public has a right
I don't know who anon is or why s/he feels it necessary to demonstrate superior mechanical knowledge relative to mine, but s/he misses the point entirely. People riding public conveyances are entitled to question safety issues. The piece I wrote on my blog was about responsiveness of Amtrak in response to one such issue -- when the train staff itself had indicated there was a pattern of behavior on the part of the engineer. It may be, as one person suggested, that there is an automatic email response to such inquiries. But if safety is raised, you would expect some triaging of the incoming mail.
The piece Adam wrote though
The piece Adam wrote though is titled "Could Acela possibly be too fast?", not "does Amtrak respond to e-mails about possible safety issues in a timely fashion". I think that set the tone for some of the responses here (that the signal system does not allow engineers to go as fast as they want, that the brakes don't have asbestos,etc).
If you felt strongly about a possible safety issue, perhaps you should have notified the DPU or FRA to ask them to investigate, or perhaps call the Amtrak Police to report the potential probelm immediatly. I don't know if I would assume that an e-mail sent to the customer relations department of a large nationwide operation would be the best way to report a safety problem be it imagined (as your's was) or real.
Acela brake problems
Why, no it was not, the problem with Acela at that time was cracked rotors. It had nothing to do with the brakes themselves. As a matter of fact, during that period the entire fleet underwent a complete overhaul of the braking system. That was at 5 years of service, as well as a fleetwide rotor exchange.
Speed Trains
It is actually impossible for the Acela to "speed" as the speed is regulated by the signals...the engineer (the person who "drives" the train) knows a head of time where the speed restrictions are (and there are plunty). He also has to flip a switch every 3 mins or so that shows that he is paying attn. it is actually pretty dump proof. If he does not slow the train down, the computer automatically stops the train.
Other than that, the speed is at the discretion of the engineer. If he wanted to slow down over a bridge, he could have. You probably smelled the breaks (try slowing down from 150 quickly). The trains are inspected before and after each trip so they are pretty safe but they will soon need an overhaul as they are getting "old"
Without knowing all the facts,
it seems to me that the smell of burning brakes is a red flag here. It sounds as if the brakes should be inspected and/or adjusted and repaired as necessary, and that trains should not be allowed to travel at excessive speeds, no matter what.