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Comments
Counterproposal
Announce that you're going to do it, then keep pushing the target date back a few months at a time until people start to assume they're going to live the rest of their lives and die without ever seeing it come to pass
BEST COMMENT
Uhub is gonna see all day...
SHUT HER DOWN FOLKS
Mass Turnpike?
Presumably the Mass Turnpike fares, and motor vehicle registration fees have gone up by equal or greater % over the years in parallel with MBTA increases??
Would love to see a comparison...
The MBTA should set goals for
The MBTA should set goals for each year in terms of bettering the MBTA rider experience and rate of expansion, and should only get the rate hikes in year 2 and 3 if they meet those goals. Because it sure seems like they don't know how to manage money, and we shouldn't have to pay the price for their incompetence.
But how can they make the
But how can they make the MBTA better without the money from a fare hike?
It's kinda chicken-eggish
Which comes first?
Improving the MBTA
or
Raising more revenue
They can pay for it with
They can pay for it with taxes like a normal country. Do you think highways and roads are funded by user fees? Because they are not.
Good luck getting the
Good luck getting the legislature to raise taxes and/or find a way to give the MBTA more money.
Raising fares, unfortunately, is more politically doable.
Ever heard of the "gas tax"?
Ever heard of the "gas tax"? It's actually a user fee, because it's paid for only by the people who use the roads, and on a per-gallon basis.
And before anyone points out that the gas tax only covers about 67% of road costs (with the rest covered by actual taxes), the MBTA fares only cover about half.
The time to ask that question?
Was four "promises and ponies" fare hikes ago.
We need to completely revamp the entire transportation system for all modes and decarbonize transportation before it is too late.
That doesn't happen with electric cars. It happens with better mass transit and multimodal capabilities and denser buildouts of close in areas.
This is bullshit.
This is bullshit.
How much has the MA gas tax been raised in the last 25 years? THREE CENTS! How much has the federal gas tax been raised in the last 25 years? ZERO! Drivers are paying less and less every year because of this and inflation.
On the other hand MBTA riders are getting completely screwed. In 2003 the subway fare was $1. Now its going to be $2.40! What a ridiculous percentage increase in just 16 years.
Why are the people who are brutally killing people in the streets and ruining our planet getting rewarded for their terrible choices and behavior? Why are responsible people who hurt no one being punished? Enough if enough.
This is a war against middle and lower class people who are making the Boston area a better and safer place. There should be protests blocking main streets until this fare hike is cancelled and the gas tax is raised. I would happily participate.
Keep voting for people who don't use the T nor advocate for it
But then if we had educated voters, maybe we wouldn't have the issues with global warming, public corruption, public education, and public transportation, unending wars.
I vote every time. I ask hard questions. I'm not impressed that we have leaders in this country who truly want to address the real issues. I don't blame the politicians...they've got a good gig. We need to look in the mirror.
I see clowns everywhere....
Nah its selective activism/liberalism/whatever you wanna call it
Speak about removing min. parking requirements to get more housing units, congestion pricing to address traffic or upzoning to get more housing density and watch the most progressive liberal turn conservative for a cause.
These are the same people that push for plastic bag and straw bans but will roll along in their SUV to pick up a gallon of milk half a mile away. Same people that oppose affordable housing due to fears of it impacting their investment property.
And yes, the same people that'll fight meaningful bike infrastructure but this post isn't about bike, its about equitable mobility, which in turn impacts equitable housing, which is something that progressives claim to be about addressing, unless it inconveniences them.
Bingo!
The new podcast The War on Cars covered this disconnect in their latest episode, "The Liberal Blind Spot for Cars": https://thewaroncars.org/2019/01/21/whoops-the-liberal-blind-spot-for-cars/
This is a weird, almost straw man.
Because the people I see who advocate for better transit and bike infrastructure tend to be rather liberal or to the left in general.
Um, okay
Something titled "the war on cars" is going to be a real objective source of factual information, I'm sure!
I agree with much of what you say
The hypocrisy runs deep. Which is why you won't see me writing "Vote for the Whigs they have all the answers" or "Vote for the No Nothings they have all the answers".
We need smart objective fact based decisions on all facets of government. Not people who say..."I agree with you, but my party leader says I can't bring that up to the floor for a vote because his cousin makes a bundle off of some corrupt side deal".
I agree taxes and costs should be increased to encourage public transportation. Economics is the dismal science for a reason.
lol
while i don't disagree that the gas tax should be raised and tolls are too low, by ignoring the revenues the state collects in sales tax and excise taxes on cars you kind of discredit yourself.
Underrated observation.
Underrated observation.
Thank you!
Inaccurate observation
That still doesn't pay for roads, particularly local roads.
Check out the Tax Foundation stats on the subject. MA comes closer than most states, but 59% of costs that don't even include externalities like the considerable health and safety impacts of driving isn't close to paying for driving.
I think you can make a better argument.....
Take away the fare costs, and public transportation is still more expensive than driving because it costs so much to live near Boston and get from place A to place B while working 40 hours. It is cheaper to live in Milford and drive a car in to Boston to work than to live in Hyde Park and take the T. (And sometimes quicker and more convenient per commute)
Your point about middle and lower class people making Boston a better and safer place is silly and isn't going to help get funding for the T.
Yeah
That's why the state should be putting a lot more resources towards commuter rail projects. Make it quicker & cheaper to take the train from the suburbs than to drive and you'll help a lot of people.
Or from Hyde Park to the South End.
It should help everyone.
Who is rewarded?
I no longer commute by car (praise jebus), but it is an awful and expensive experience to do so in this city. Boston has of the worst traffic and commuting time by car in the USA, and most of the city streets are getting even tighter for things like bike lanes. Cars are also often the spot where people who don't have access to good transit (the poor) like the expensive housing around our subway stops. I don't know why you think drivers are so "rewarded" when most of them are crawling in painful traffic because they have little choice, and then have to pay high prices for city parking. Congestion pricing is needed, but its not like it's a party for drivers.
Maybe if the MBTA wasn't only $1 in 2003 (the price of the NYC or Chicago subways in 1986) it might not be the shitshow it is today. It has had of the slowest fare increases in the country, if not the slowest. Believe it or not that has an impact. I don't even think that keeps up with inflation.
Additionally, depending on the gas tax is not a solution to the T's problems, particularly as we push for more fuel efficient cars. The T should be self-sustaining, and ideally privatized so it's not beholden to politicians and inflexible unions -- and riders have someone to actually hold accountable when it goes poorly like any normal business. Maybe then we'd have a subway that apologizes for being 1 minute early like in Tokyo.
This is the weird part
There is a cycle of people not wanting to pay for the T, which leads to less money going to the T, which leads to poor infrastructure/quality of service, which leads to people not wanting to pay for the T.
If someone can come up with a fair, politically viable idea of how to get money to public transit outside of fare increases, I am all ears. Otherwise, as long as we are not paying the highest fares, how much can we complain?
Public transit should be free
More cities are looking to implement measures like this, with our own Michelle Wu recently speaking on the subject. And keep in mind free doesn't mean free for all, we can and should adjust pricing so its more equitable.
But if you want to start speaking about this self-sustaining libertarian fantasy, you need to take the blinders off. The gas tax hasn't been increased, the highway trust fund is no longer keeping up, and parking in Boston is woefully underpriced for the property value it represents. We need higher usage costs for motorist to discourage what causes traffic and fund public transit. Also you haven't even begun to address the external cost impacts on the environment and healthcare.
We've prioritized the movement of single occupancy metal boxes over regional mass transit, thats why we don't have trains like in Tokyo. And because of that, we want to charge more and more of a commuter rail line and act as if its regional rail that we should be greatful for. Oh and all the suburban NIMBYS that have fought against meaningful expansion of the T over the years.
There's no such thing as free
But I can't wait to Wu to show how to pay for it.
There certainly is such thing as free
From a user perspective of course. Yes someone has to fund that and its a pretty easy argument that making transit more affordable and free to some is benefit to society. We know where to get the funding so lets just do it.
Is it perfect and tested elswhere? Not really, as evidenced by this line below but it doesn't mean we throw our hands up and stick with the status quo. Why can't the Hub take a bold approach to solving our traffic woes?
We need to fund and provide meaningful access to good reliable public transit and for some, that will mean its free. For others, it'll mean tax and usage fee increases for the alternative modes. Hell, I'll pay a bike tax if means that transit improves for everyone.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/free-public-transport-to-combat-a...
I blame soccer
Free T, free healthcare free, college, free housing, free food. Everything should be free. The dems can make the rich pay for it and the republicans can make the Mexicans pay for it.
My foorball coach used to call soccer a communist plot to undermine the youth of america. Apparently it worked.
Tomorrow, everything is free. And we all.play soccer on the common.
That's nice, grandpa.
Tell us again about how many commies you shot in Korea. That story is almost as exciting as the tirades against soccer, which you've apparently decided to make in a public forum.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will be over here in grounded reality, talking about how all the major infrastructure projects of the 20th century were built because the tax rate on top earners was north of 90%.
Trust you are joking
Like I was. Since nobody actually ever paid that 90% tax, or anything close to it.
Government revenue as a percent of GDP is at or near records. If we cant afford things, it's not for lack of income. It's because we spend it on other stuff.
Joe Lewis Did. https://en
Joe Lewis Did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Louis#Taxes_and_financial_troubles
Its somewhat interesting to note that I would suspect that the top 1% if W2 earners is much more diverse than the top 1% of "All Income" earners. The "Real Rich" make there money through Capital Gains or by getting loans against things that increase in value to avoid payroll taxes.
Nope
Well he either didn't or he shouldn't have. Do some homework beyond Wikipedia and you'll figure out why.
The real crook wasn't the government, it was his manager
Shocking.
1.3 trillion dollars
went to the rich in tax cuts that, surprise surprise, research is now showing made ZERO impact on the economy, ZERO improvements for the middle class, and went almost entirely to stock buybacks for the already super rich to horde like fucking dragons.
1.3 trillion dollars would buy a lot of transit passes for the poor, leaving them with more money to pump into the economy, spend at local businesses, save for their kids' education, etc.
but ok sure communism
Fake news
girst, I've stated out here more than once that the new tax laws are ridiculous. However, there are enormous assumptions behind that 1.2 trillion, which is a 10 year projection I believe from the CBO.
Go add up ALL state local and federal taxes, graph it against GDP, and it will stillnbe at or close to record highs.
Money isn't the problem. How we spend it is.
Additionally
You can't know the impact of a giant change in tax law in a years time. To think that is remotely possible is to fundamentally mis-understand the spontaneous bottom-up order that makes a market economy.
1. The wealthy should not have gotten a tax cut
2. The corporate tax cut was very good for US competitiveness and long overdue
3. The biggest proportional cut actually went to the lower and middle class.
Still, the only way the tax systems in Nordic nations that people here seem to long for is by high taxes on a wide base. The US has the most progressive tax system in the world, but the wealthy still don't have enough money to carry what you want on their backs alone. The money simply doesn't exist, and if the government could even confiscate all of it, it would burn through it in a year.
The cries to only soak the rich won't make this work, you have to have high taxes on everyone, which is all the more important that the money is well spent which we currently do not do at all. We spend the most on the wealthiest segment of the population (the elderly) and this is only increasing.
We could cut the military budget in half, and we are going to be spending half the savings on debt interest alone. All the leftists crying about the rich all the time need to get serious about taxes and the debt.
And yes, the marginal tax rates today are already over 70% for many people, particularly in states like CA and NY. It's simply not a serious position to think everything would be fixed if we only taxed the wealthiest a little more.
There's no such thing as a free lunch
It's gotta get paid by something, and the roads are already in shambles. The gas tax should go up to pay for actually fixing the abysmal roads in this state. The T fares (and probably property taxes around the stations) should go up to make the T solvent.
Yes, raise parking prices.
Add congestion pricing.
Lobby for a US carbon tax.
Oppose NIMBYs
All that aside, it's still the T's job to sustain itself.
The Tokyo subway is privatized, and definitely not free: https://www.universalhub.com/comment/711311#comment-711311
Exactly
The gas tax or other per mile tax should pay for the entire cost of roads.
There is no free lunch. Drivers ate all of it.
The Tokyo Metro Co is owned
The Tokyo Metro Co is owned by the Japanese and Tokyo governments. The Toei Subway is owned by the Tokyo government. Unions are way more common in Japan than the US. Japan's gas tax is about four times higher than in the US.
Who is being rewarded? Drivers! How much is a parking permit in Boston? $0. Who pays for paving, painting and plowing streets? Non drivers like myself via the property tax. Who pays for the medical bills when someone gets lung cancer from auto emissions? Not the drivers, that is for sure.
Ever live in japan?
I did. It's crazy expensive to get around. And have you seen their economic numbers the last few decades? Not something you want to copy.
What? Japanese Transit is privatized, and profitable
https://sf.streetsblog.org/2018/11/01/spur-talk-the-japanese-model-for-s...
The important thing is selling infrastructure, which US politicians are resistant to do because we have such a free market or some drivel that people seem to believe but is not actually true half the time anymore because politics has killed it.
But it's a demonstration that the market is much better at managing and discovering the optimal way to run the system and get the most people moving at highest satisfaction.
"Privatization" should not be a triggering event in your brain, at least when your public system is struggling spectacularly for so long, maybe it's time to rethink your assumptions.
ideally privatized
A privately-run T will charge what the market will bear. That's okay if you think that two and a half bucks is what the market will bear.
Narrator:
[Ron Howard]: $2.50 was not what the market would bear
Let's privatize highways then
And hear the screaming when they are not only NOT subsidized heavily but costs include a profit margin!
They should
There are private highways in LA now, and they are a godsend to traffic. Similarly w/ congestion pricing. It's a far better and more fair system than politics. User fees should cover most things in society, not an unlimited and unaccountable tax flow.
Maybe if we privatized more roads, then Cambridge wouldn't feel like we're driving on the moon. And when a company needed to fill potholes they could invest in long term cost saving self-healing bio concrete https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0950061817313752
or other new materials https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/4/15544156/potholes-self-healing-materia...
Rather than being beholden to contract unions that don't want to invest in new technology (hell, we've had better paving tech since the 70s that nobody uses) or have an incentive to not just have more potholes instantly.
Markets find ways to serve
Markets find ways to serve people at every appropriate price point -- that's what they're good at. Our current system clearly fails at this. There's no reason to believe that a company whose sole focus was optimizing transit could not manage things better and maintain broad access. By and large, we should be charging more for the T generally, and considering subsidizing those with financial needs. It's not like we don't price discriminate today w/ seniors, students, and Charlie cards.
Yeah, they will charge what the market will handle, but it also means the system isn't a flaming wreck.
Buy a fucking bike you lazy
Buy a fucking bike you lazy piece of shit!
Train fare <> Tax
Stop equating the fee you pay for the privilege of riding on a train to that of a tax that increases the expense of a mode of transportation. Feel free to compare it to the average cost of a taxi fare or now Uber/Lyft, which has probably decreased relative to inflation (especially with Pool options).
Ah yes
I'm being punished by taxes that don't even cover the cost of my favored mode of transit so IT IS DIFFERENT.
You have a lot to learn about the direct costs of driving. When you figure those out, start examining the externalized costs.
Driving costs all of us a lot of money, and you piddly little taxes don't even begin to cover the costs of your highly subsidized entitlement to drive.
The real reason ridership is down
Is because fare jumping is out of control with little or no enforcement. Raise the fares and more passengers will refuse to pay the tax on honest passengers.
Raise it 50%
People that ride the T regularly go to work and go home. They lose in general. They have little representation and just about zero recourse other than posting on the internet.
Corporations and government are the ones that stand to lose profit margin from a gas tax. They organize with other drivers, lobby, and will pull out all stops. If they do increase the tax, it will be a small increase and they will be like, "that sucks but alright, just no more for the next 25 years."
Now is a genius time to raise the gas tax
With gas prices in the $1.20's, they could easily add 10¢ to the tax tomorrow and hardly anyone would even notice. That's money that could immediately be put to use fixing bridges and roads and yes, The T. Just do it !
It won't happen
Gary C, isn't it funny how you can predict the outcome based upon the parties involved? Make no mistake, people who ride the T are losers. Some may have higher incomes but they are not in charge of anything. They get kicked around and humiliated by the upper castes of society on a regular basis. They're lives suck, pretty much.
Society's upper castes (winners) don't care because they drive nice cars, get driven around, or some take the water taxi. They control which taxes get raised. I mean really... would someone with the ability to prevail in a local election ever be the type of person that would ride the T everyday. Would you even vote for a leader who rides the T? I wouldn't.
The point is, the losers on the T will pay more because they lose. The upper castes will pay less, not because they want to save money so much as they want to humiliate.
You seem nice.
2-week-old account, exclusively shitposting alt-right talking points in high-volume threads.
You are TrophyWifeLinda, and I claim my five pounds.
TrophyWifeLinda?
That poster is terrible. At least confuse me with someone a little better like Kinopio.
I think you forgot something
Your bizarre ramblings require one of these:
No
I already have one.
I do too
I use it for biking to work and when doing bike errands.
.
.
Are people really complaining
Are people really complaining about a 2.1% increase per year increase. That barely keeps up with inflation. It sounds like a bargain.
People complain any time prices are raised
And that's true for anything.
Now, if you look at how much some of the monthly passes are going up in the higher zones, I'd say those people might have a reason for griping. That the link pass is going up $5.50 a month is something I can handle.
Imagine how much drivers
Imagine how much drivers would cry if the gas tax was raised $1.40 over 18 years. They complained when it was raised 3 cents over 30 years! MBTA riders have a right to complain, drivers obviously do not.
What a broken alalgy analogy
Drivers also pay excise tax and maintain their own vehicles.
Gas Tax is not the sole tax paid by drivers.
what a broken thing to say, anon
Get used to this place and you will find plenty in the archives that explains that your "oh soooo expensive payments!" are really only about 60% of the actual cost of your driving.
The rest is payed by everyone in income taxes, property taxes, etc. regardless of their car ownership status.
Same can be said of the T.
It also uses tax dollars and a majority of the state doesn't use it. Just sayin....
Want to talk the real costs?
It isn't just the MBTA that Charlie strangled but transit throughout the state.
There are also these things called "externalities" - costs of driving that are often not accounted for that add to the entire societal cost burden of maintaining roadways for automobile travel. Costs like climate damage. Health damage. Obesity epidemic. Damage to people and their families due to the high death toll caused by driving. Public employees killed by drivers in the line of duty. Etc.
Add it all up and you will quickly figure out which mode costs society the most - hint: it ain't transit.
Except...
Most people's jobs aren't paying them more in adjustment for inflation...so in the end, people will complain because wage stagnation is starting to overwhelm more and more people.
Drivers freaked out when the
Drivers freaked out when the legislature (not just the governor like in this case) voted to raise the gas tax to keep up with inflation, and voted to abolish it. But we keep getting new roads (and a billion dollar improvement to the pike and storrow coming up). While the T continues to crash and burn, expansions get delayed or cancelled, and hours have been reduced. I get it, while states like Colorado are shifting towards blue, we are shifting towards purple.
Here would be my counter
How would T riders feel if, by law, raises in fares were tied to inflation?
The T is allowed a 7%
The T is allowed a 7% increase every 24 months and has pretty much taken full advantage of that each time they're allowed. (Oh, sorry, this time they're "only" doing a 6.5% increase). Broken down, that's actually beating inflation each year. So, yeah, your counterargument sucks.
Probably ok with it IF...
Probably ok with it IF wages were also tied to inflation. Be a nice old world, wouldn't it?
But here's the thing
When they tried tying the gas tax to inflation, there was no tying wages to inflation, either.
I gotta admit that I did a 180 on the issue. I think the gas tax is too low, but tying it to CPI was a coward's way of dealing with it.
Here's another thing
Gas tax is only a fraction of the direct cost of providing roads.
Then they should raise the gas tax
It’s the indexing part that tripped them up.
Once again, the T needs revenue to keep the trains, buses, and whatnot running, just like MassDOT needs revenue to keep the roads in good shape. That said, would the average driver or T rider be okay with automatic increases based on the CPI or other metric?
"Then they should raise the gas tax"
That has to be the most "let them eat cake" statement in the context of this topic. Are you unfamiliar with MA politics?
If the argument could be made
I think the voters would not oppose a moderate increase. Right now it is at $0.24 a gallon. If we were to increase it 6%, which is what is causing bellyaching here, that would be about $0.02 a gallon. I think they could handle a full 6 cents, spaced over a period of time.
Authorities
Have a pretty sketchy History around this town. Def a good book....anyways, you’ll pick up the tab...won’t you Bubb?
Put it down
Either put down the bath salts or the computer keyboard. You choose.
The people here complaining are the same fools
Who vote for "free education" and "free healthcare".
I take the T everyday, and am fine with this modest increase.
That's nice dear
You probably have a leaky rowboat fetish, too.