I ask because of some of the comments in the armed mall shopper discussion. Disagree with what he says, sure, but, honestly, are obscenity and "nut job" comments really necessary? Would you say stuff like that in a face-to-face discussion?
Like the job UHub is doing? Consider a contribution. Thanks!
Ad:
Comments
I'd hate to say it, but a
By Accountability
Mon, 12/10/2007 - 8:38pm
I'd hate to say it, but a lot of people out there feel very uncomfortable knowing that there's a guy running around carrying, who seems very paranoid on all the horrible things that could happen to him, while talking about how he just waits for the day he can go all Rambo on some "bad guy".
I don't care what you think, but that reeks of hick gun nut, not of responsible gun owner. I mean the guy is breaking posted rules and bringing a concealed weapon on private property and is itching to start a shoot out if he hears a shot fired.
That makes a lot of people really really uncomfortable, and while trolling and name calling isn't in order, I don't find his ramblings and disregard of "rules" he doesn't deem necessary as the model of a upright citizen practicing the 2nd amendment in good faith.
Huh???
By BrucemB
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 1:00am
...while talking about how he just waits for the day he can go all Rambo on some "bad guy".
I'll buy you a steak dinner if you can show me one instance where Jay has ever said anything remotely close to that.
Way to make stuff up just to make other people look bad. Did your parents raise you up to act that way? Or is it something you figured out on your own?
I won't hold my breath waiting for your apology for such a gross distortion of a man's character. Jay is a good friend of mine and I would trust him with my children's lives, without a moment's hesitation. You likely will never meet a more caring person and loving parent in your lifetimes.
So, say what you will. Your words are of little significance in the grand scheme of things. But, know this. If you were in a mall where some crazed loner was opening up with a rifle into a crowd of shoppers, and you saw Jay there drawing a handgun and shuttling his kids to a safe location, you would be right there with them, knowing full well that the "paranoid" "hick gun nut" was your best ticket to survival.
If we're playing "suppose"...
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 2:57am
...then I'm guessing Jay pulls out his gun and yells for the "crazed loner" to drop his weapon before blowing him away, right?
...or would he actually fire first when he sees the "crazed loner" firing? Only, he finds out later he killed the undercover cop/security guard/armed citizen who he didn't see/hear identify himself and *that* person was actually firing at the real "crazed loner".
...OR after dropping the "crazed loner", some other cop/guard/armed citizen kills Jay because he doesn't see/hear Jay identify himself...just sees him firing away as the crowd is running the other way.
...OR hey, any one of these armed people doesn't hit their target and ends up putting a round or two into an innocent bystander.
This isn't the Wild West and the good guys don't always wear white hats. This isn't the woods where the deer stand alone and you can't misidentify them very easily.
One or two gunmen in the entire U.S. have killed less than a dozen people in the past few days. To say that you can't go to any other mall without feeling unsafe as an unarmed citizen is absurd. It's like wearing a parachute to fly commercial jets because every now and then one of them has a safety failure and you could have jumped out if only you'd had your parachute on...except it's worse than that, because even if you had your parachute on, someone else isn't going to injure you just because they also decided to have their parachute on (or it's their job to have a parachute).
Every gun owner who shoots at the range and takes a few classes thinks they know everything there is to discharging their firearm in a high-pressure, crowded situation...so if that day ever comes, they're damn sure they're going to be armed and ready. Hell, there are guys in active military duty who aren't even properly trained in firing in highly public areas. You're willing to trust your kids with this guy as he draws and fires in a shopping mall, but the majority of the rest of us aren't...and we shouldn't have to put up with his abrogation of the mall's rules just because he needs to feel safe or prove himself.
Actually...
By BrucemB
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:33am
I'd wager that Jay's response in such a situation would be similar to mine, in that our first obligation is to the protection of ourselves and our families. The first thing I'd do is assume a defensive covered position. I carry my weapon to protect my family, not to be a hero and take out a psychopath with a rifle.
As long as my family is safe, I can live with my decision not to engage a shooter in that type of scenario. Now, if he were to close in on my position, and I had to choose between killing him and having my family slaughtered, I would not hesitate to empty my gun into his torso.
I love my kids more than I love adhering to liberal doctrine and walking around in a defenseless condition, wholly reliant on the mercy of some deranged lunatic (or the police who could be upwards of 20 minutes away) for my safety.
Rambo Day at the Mall?
By Gareth
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:43am
Maybe the mall could just have a Rambo Day when they encourage all the gun nuts to come to the mall "armed to the teeth."
All those folks who feel "defenseless" and terrified without guns can cover themselves with ammo belts and go growl at and/or hide from each other behind the watch kiosks while they play fantasy shooter scenarios through their heads.
And the rest of us could just stay away that day.
How about it, Bruce? You could bring all your sock puppets.
Comparitive Risks
By SwirlyGrrl Not ...
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:47am
I think we are all far more at risk of automobile related mayhem from people who simply can't or wont learn how to drive or pay attention than from random gunmen in the Mall. Vastly more children and families die in car accidents than in gunfire incidents, and infinitely more than in hostile stranger gunfire incidents in particular. Similarly, there are risks when our neighbors don't clear their sidewalks of ice, illegally, and leave us to walk in the street or risk serious injury.
Put bluntly, any given child is at more risk of dying from playing with an improperly stored gun than falling victim to stranger gunfire and dying because the parent wasn't armed. I'm sure Bruce puts his guns safely out of reach and out of range of older kids who wish to show them off to other kids. Unfortunatately, most deaths from guns among children come from guns left around loaded and not because their parent couldn't out fire an intruder. That is the aggregate experience of the population.
I'm involved in Risk Assessment and Health Impact Assessment, so I tend to throw aside "conventional wisdom" and filter out all of these freakshow risks that bedevil many parents because they are sensational and awful, but nearly ficticious. I'm always the one who lets my kids roam more than others as I know that "stranger abduction" is extremely rare. I own a gun and know how to use a gun, I just don't see any point in having one on hand. I think we could make our lives far safer if the state showed more interest in making sure that automobile drivers were as qualified, knowledgeable, and competent to drive as handgun owners are to have their guns.
that's COMPARATIVE. note to
By SwirlyGrrl Not ...
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:48am
that's COMPARATIVE.
note to self - lern to spel
Really, Brucemb,
By independentminded
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 1:22pm
I tend to disagree with you there. Gun violence simply begets more gun violence.
reeks of hick gun nut
By Anon-o-mus
Mon, 12/10/2007 - 9:34pm
So the answer is no
By adamg
Mon, 12/10/2007 - 9:37pm
And what would people think of being required to register. I realize that invites sock-puppetry, but then again, this isn't much better.
I register
By alyssa
Mon, 12/10/2007 - 10:00pm
But I own up to my incivility. And frankly, I don't think you get much in the way of civility if you don't expect people to take a very low level of ownership of their words. At least in a place like this.
I'd like to think otherwise...
I noticed today that Ken Levine is dealing with a similar issue.
www.thebigredblog.com
If I were running a list or
By Anonymous
Mon, 12/10/2007 - 10:04pm
If I were running a list or blog, I would not allow anonymous posting. This isn't a tip line or whistle-blower report where anonymity is needed. Responsibility for one's words and actions used to be part of our lives. I wish it still was.
No need to register
By Brian
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 7:54am
I have a registered account, so I guess it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, but I don't think you really need to force people to register. Its not as if this is an ongoing problem. I suspect that even if people had registered accounts the line may be crossed from time to time.
myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!
bad attitude
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 7:31am
The original poster's description of himself:
"Dad, gun nut, motorhead, shaved-head biker with a foul mouth and a bad attitude."
Bad attitude? Sorry, but when someone who is self-described 'gun nut' with a 'bad attitude' claims he is going to be 'armed to the teeth' while shopping in a crowded mall full of children, families, innocent people and a few not so innocent teens, I think it is legitimate for people to express concern.
Fortunately, the poster recognized his extreme language and corrected himself. There's nothing light-hearted about carrying a concealed gun to the mall and then bragging about it online.
i know jay...
By amusings
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 8:18am
personally. and the one thing you're missing is in the middle of "gun nut" and "bad attitude" is "wicked funny sense of humor" and "jokes around a lot" and "caring, compassionate, fun loving guy".
I posted in his blog that unfortunately the timing of his post coincided with a mall shooting, so joking around about it in his blog a couple days after was kind of a disconnect on his part.
but i've blogged about french toast snow warnings and how i'm barricading my doors with the bodies of my dead neighbors who dare to come to the house to try and steal my milk and toilet paper because they didn't have the sense to buy enough at the market before civilization falls. does that mean i'm killing my neighbors and piling their bodies up? no. it doesn't.
and how many of you out there have said things like "i'd love to run that guy over with my car" or something... do we take away your license? no. do we lock you in a room and take away your keys forbidding you to drive? no.
unfortunately, jay made a joke with particularly, incredibly bad bad bad timing. had he said it the week before or last year this discussion wouldn't even be happening. he is one of the nicest guys i've met in this town, i trust him implicitly. he'd save your life in a heartbeat if need be. he'd throw you to the ground and take a bullet while trying to dig out his own sidearm. he'd do that for anyone. he's that kind of guy.
that is all.
Maybe Jay brings it on himself
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:03am
Consider that his blog actually calls himself a "gun nut". Consider that his opening image is a clip-fed rifle. Consider that he acts as if he's "marooned", "stuck", carries a "bad attitude" and that he is "ranting and raving". Consider that the rest of us must be communists since he's trapped here in the "volksrepublik" keeping him hostage under a "perpetual nanny".
Consider all of those contextual clues the rest of us have been given by Jay (we don't even have to go out of our way to incorrectly assume these things!). Now, given the great mound of context, insinuation, and false attribution he places on the rest of us...I think most of these responses were pretty valid.
What we know
By SwirlyGrrl Not ...
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 12:10pm
is that a couple of guys keep posting here as if their next OK Corral shootout is hours away and potentially anywhere, and thus they have to be ready.
It is too easy, without "knowing Jay" to think, from what he wrote, that he is just hoping and praying for an opportunity to show his gunman prowess and be a hero.
So I'll own up to the Red Ryder comments, and add that it was "just a parody" of the juvenile tone evinced by the original posting.
I don't mind logging in to say it either - except that I can't always get to from our work system.
Apologies and excuses
By bob
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 9:33am
Alright, I'll cop to the crime of online
incivility. Mea Culpa.
But isn't throwing an image of an assault rifle up and
announcing plans to be "armed to the teeth" in a local
mall an invitation to reaction? My reaction was
incivil, but the provocation was a bit much.
Let me say it in a more civil fashion. Jay, I don't
know you. I do know that I don't want to be near
you while you are firing your gun at anything or
anybody, in anyplace. Whatever the reason. OK?
You betcha
By FlyingToaster
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 11:02am
Would you say stuff like that in a face-to-face discussion?
Yes. And I've done so for upwards of 30 years (one of the main reasons I no longer live in the Midwest, mind you).
Now, I actually assumed the "armed to the teeth" (or whatever exactly Jay said) was tongue-in-cheek. But if I did know him personally, I'd have asked how much he wanted to be compared to the gun-totin'-fools I grew up with, anyway? And probably started doing one-to-one comparisons with said fools. And noting that the likelihood of gun violence at a suburban MA mall was rather lower than lightning strikes while walking from-n-to the car parked in the mall's lot.
I don't think registration will solve offensive speech, but you could do like Slashdot and call all anon posters "Anonymous Coward".
Not registered only out of laziness...
"Anonymous" Tags Speak For Themselves
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 12:40pm
If someone goes so far as to insult another poster anonymously, why does anyone here even pay attention? The fact that he/she is posting anonymously negates any serious consideration of his/her opinions. Just ignore it.
Not only is it cowardly, it's lazy, too. Anybody can at least take the time to type in a first name.
Suldog
(James Shawn Sullivan, that is. Took me all of three seconds to type that.)
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
registering
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 1:11pm
If I log in, registered as 'mocha-polka-dots', would that make my comments more legitimate?
I suppose I could do that, but I'd still essentially be Anonymous.
Anonymous is the default
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 1:12pm
Give me a break. I don't doubt the veracity of your claim to be a Mr. James Shawn Sullivan, but really what do I know from dirt that a Mr. James Shawn Sullivan is even a real person?
The internet is anonymous by default. Unless you have some level of fame/infamy AND part of that stems from your online activities, then how is anyone else to know that you are who you say you are? Wikipedia is anonymous if you want it to be. IPs are assigned the blame of problems and things. The only thing an account does is localize accountability...but it does nothing to start civility/etc. It's the overt policing of IP bans and timeouts that actually keeps things civil (and even then, people will go out of their way to avoid those things too). Leave it alone unless you want to deal with all the extra policing that goes with it or you want to make it so restrictive to comment that you quash all discussion to the 3 people interested enough in commenting that they sign up, etc...and even then, you won't know that they are who they say they are.
My name is Jason Whitman Forrester. Believe me?
You shouldn't. I totally made it up just now...or did I?
Howdy, Mr. Forrester!
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 2:05pm
Well, see, you can (if you want to) go to my blog - a handy link is provided under my "Suldog" signature - where you can find my profile, which states my actual name and where I live. It even gives my profession.
Now, if you were so inclined, you could look me up in my local phone book, and verify that such a person exists. You might even search Google, under "Suldog" or "James Shawn Sullivan", and you could use qualifiers, such as "voice" or "Libertarian" or whatever other clues I may have given at one time or another (or even "stupid asshole" - you never know.)
(I'll save you time - google.com...James+Shawn+Sullivan%22+%22stupid+asshole%22)
Now, while that requires some legwork, the point is that I am not afraid of giving my opinions connected with an actual honest-to-God name. If someone else is, they may have reasons for it. That's fine. But, by so doing, they lose credibility in my eyes. That's all I'm saying.
If all opinions are equal for you, more power to you. They're not for me.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Great, then I'm Curt Schilling...
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 2:31pm
You can go to my blog here: http://www.38pitches.com
On it you'll find my profile. I'm in Medfield and my profession is MLB Pitcher.
If you were so inclined, you could even google search for me..I think there are a few pages with my name on it.
Now while all that might require some legwork, the point is that I'm not afraid to give my opinions connected with someone else's actual honest-to-God name. That might lose credibility in your eyes...but if I were to choose a less famous persona then, well, good luck knowing if I'm telling the truth or not about who I am. That's all I'm saying.
Also, you'll find that even in this day and age, many people are capable of keeping their name off the internet...so just because you google someone to try and figure out if they exist, a null answer is not necessarily a true negative result.
If you have to put assumption or faith into what I tell you as being true, such as my name or account info, then you're really only 1 step removed from just calling me anonymous anyways and 1 step away from not considering my opinion to be a credible one. Really, though, the same could be said for how much I have to trust you to also be telling the truth here.
Instead, I just choose to value each opinion that comes in based on the message and not on the messenger.
Okee-Dokee
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 2:51pm
"I just choose to value each opinion that comes in based on the message and not on the messenger."
If you do, that's all well and good. No problem.
I don't. If someone expresses an opinion here anonymously, I tend to devalue it almost immediately.
I don't believe we'll resolve this difference. However, we have had a fairly civil conversation about it, so I guess that proves something...
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Suldog is a known person
By Ron Newman
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 3:24pm
Every time Suldog posts, he posts as Suldog. He has a blog where he calls himself Suldog. There's a reasonable continuity between his posts. He has a reputation. That's worth something. People who post as "Anonymous" mean less to me than people who post with a consistent pseudonym.
If someone here started posting as Curt Schilling, the real person with that name would have quite reasonable grounds for complaint, and I'm sure Adam would take care of the problem before that even became an issue.
Thanks, Ron (I Think)
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 3:53pm
"Every time Suldog posts, he posts as Suldog... He has a reputation."
Hmmmmm. That could be taken two ways. I'll just continue on blithely, assuming that I haven't been dissed :-)
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
LOL
By Ron Newman
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 3:56pm
Never assume the worst. ;-)
And, Combining Two Of Today's Threads...
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 4:32pm
Here's my home, via Google Maps.
maps.google.com/maps?f=...1,360,,0,5
(It's the brick one. I cleverly planted that tree in front of it to maintain its anonymity.)
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
You live at Berklee College of Music?
By Ron Newman
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 4:48pm
That's what it says on the front of the building, anyway.
I'm Not So Good At This...
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 5:17pm
That's what I get for trying to be a smartass. Oh, well.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Please don't take my point so literally
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 4:58pm
Sure, Curt Schilling draws a little too much attention to start calling myself Curt Schilling.
But nothing keeps me from just making up a name, a blog, and going with it just to still be fully anonymous and yet you'd be calling me by whatever chosen name I put on the account? And would you be willing to credit my post with more meaning than if I hadn't signed in?
What if Hart Brachen (h.b.) who runs Soxaholix started posting here under the name h.b.? What if *I'm* h.b.? I'm not, but still, you wouldn't know the difference for the most part if I just started a free blog somewhere and posted under a complete pseudonym and then registered that pseudonym here. Reputation? Continuity? Who cares, given that it's all under an assumed alias anyways?
Isn't the message what's important?
Message Is Important
By Suldog
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 5:06pm
Yes, of course, the message is important. However, the reliability and/or accountability of the messenger can be of help.
If it never mattered who was delivering a message, then journalists wouldn't quote sources.
Of course, much of what is discussed here is hardly of great import, and sometimes it doesn't matter at all who the source is; I'll grant you that. But, if it's an opinion being expressed, I'm better able to weigh the accuracy of that opinion if I know who it's coming from and what their previous track record has been.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
What about?
By Anonymous
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 5:44pm
Why let their previous track record prejudice or bias your reading of their words? If there was no authorship to any of these comments (full anonymity), I'd imagine we could all still have a good conversation.
Not Prejudice Or Bias - It's Trustworthiness
By Suldog
Wed, 12/12/2007 - 9:03am
Sure, we're having a decent discussion here. There's just a bit of snideness on both of our parts, but it's fairly good-natured and fun. Conversations are had all of the time by strangers and no affidavits are needed, of course.
What I'm trying to get across is this: after I've read the words, if a judgment is called for concerning the value of the statements made, it is helpful to know that the person speaking those words is at least ONE of the following...
A) Someone I already know and trust.
B) Someone who I recognize as an authority on the subject being discussed.
C) Someone not unwilling to associate their name with their words, thus letting any consequences associated with those words redound to either their credit or shame.
It is entirely possible that an anonymous poster might say stunningly profound things, providing tremendous insight into whatever is being discussed. I'm not arguing against that. All I'm saying is that the identity of a speaker CAN be of great import in deciding upon the validity and/or sincerity of what that person is saying.
For example...
“As a Christian... I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice!”
Now, if someone I knew to be an actual follower of Christian beliefs said that, I might be inclined to say something along the lines of "Yay, Brother! Fight the good fight!"
However, knowing that the speaker was Adolf Hitler, the statement comes across in an entirely different light.
And, if I had no idea whatsoever who the speaker was, the statement would hold neither passion or fear. It would just be words strung together to little effect.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
It's the Headlines
By MattL
Tue, 12/11/2007 - 1:25pm
I don't think you'll solve your problem by requiring registration. Your headlines are purposfully snarky/sarcastic/designed-to-rile, so I think you're gonna have to deal with the occasional crazy comment, no matter what. Personally, I love the crazy comments!