Yeah, some of the linking here bothers me too. It's one thing to have balance, and there definitely are posters and linkees here who disagree with one another on a number of issues.
I agree on the "rubbish" bit. Boston Maggie is illogical and makes her extremist points by picking and choosing which facts she'll acknowledge. Similarly, there's that Pundit Review person whose posts make racist and homophobic hate speech show up in the UH sidebar. Ew.
What have I not counted from his actual record that should be counted? Resolutions? I wouldn't count anyone's. Amendments? That's on someone else's work. Stuff that never sees the light of day? To me that's like when people don't want little league games to have scores.
What is extremist about the view that I think John Kerry doesn't work hard enough as a Senator? I haven't heard anyone offer anything concrete as to his accomplishments.
Not for nothing as the saying goes.....but it is hard being a Republican in Massachusetts, lol.
I think your criteria need revision if what you wrote above is true (sorry, but I haven't looked at your original post to read all of the criteria yet, I just saw your comments here so far and took exception below to the way in which I saw the scientific method being abused). To whit, you don't include amendments. I think we all understand that our legislative process is fraught with substantial delay and therefore moves at an agonizingly slow pace. Imagine if Senators were not able to adapt current legislation to something amenable to all. If you don't agree with a current bill, then you would have to introduce a brand new one with all of the committee assignments and unacceptable sections that would require others to fail it and submit their own new bill, in perpetuum.
Amendments are as important, if not more important, than the generation of new bills. A successful amendment often stands as the cornerstone of bipartisan decision making. While the majority may have dropped an audacious hack of a bill on the minority's desk knowing it will pass as is, the minority may be able to rein in some of the wilder charges within the bill with an amendment that both can agree to, likely under threat of filibuster by the minority. Thus, the minority Senator who is able to have amendments passed has accomplished as much as the bill's originator, especially in light of the two-party strategics our government is trapped within.
Furthermore, I believe there are politics that a "bill count" method will not encompass. How many bills did Kerry come up with, but Kennedy was allowed to bring to the chamber? Kennedy's seniority and considerable clout with the Republicans would have given those bills a much better chance than if a recently failed presidential candidate (who spent months hammering on the ugly side of Republican policy makers) had brought the issue up instead. Kerry would end up as a cosponsor that you have ignored and there's little way for you or I to know which, if any, these bills were as well. For you, that means you have accepted to not only lose them from Kerry's list of contributions, but doubly in error, ascribe them to Kennedy thus driving further the difference by which you measure the two Senators' usefulness. Conjointly, in the past 9.5 years that you are measuring, Kerry was a presidential candidate for a good portion of that time. This means time was spent away from legislation and on the campaign trail (for example, by my account, I can only find 1 sponsored bill introduced by John McCain in 2008 and it was a campaign ploy to remove the gas tax). I find his participation in the 2004 campaign to be meaningful politically, even though it may have taken away from his participation legislatively. Either way, that time lost from his role in the Senate is attributed by your conclusion to a lack of "hard work as a Senator" as opposed to substantial hard work as a Presidential Nominee.
From what is discussed here, anyways, I don't believe your criteria accurately reflect what it takes to be a "hard-working" Senator and they certainly don't reflect what it takes to be a "hard working" politician.
My post pointed out that in the last nine years John Kerry sponsored just 8 bills that resulted in true legislation.
Charly on the MTA came out and challenged that. He demanded that I go to Thomas.loc.gov and see all the great bills John Kerry has sponsored.
So I did. I read all the legislation that can be properly attributed to John Kerry. I took all the bills he sponsored (not co-sponsored). I dropped everything that was fluff and everything that went into limbo.
Guess what? Charly was right. I was wrong. It was 7 bills, not 8, in 9 and half years not 9 years.
How does saying that make me a political flack? How does pointing out that people getting riled about the TMZ pics is just nonsense make me a political flack? How does stating that it's sad that more people know John Kerry spent the weekend on Nantucket than know the name of their own State rep make me a political flack?
I think people just don't like to admit that Kerry is a loser so they become peeved with those who point it out.
It's true I am a Republican. So what? Does that mean it's less tragic that our junior Senator is a useless barnacle on the Commonwealth because a Republican points it out?
As far as rightwing.........that one always makes me laugh. It's all in your perspective! People from outside Massachusetts see me as too liberal. People in Massachusetts on the left see me as too conservative. It's just a label, I could care less. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I do object to your use of the term to dismiss facts.
I have never lied about Senator Kerry. He has sat before committees and dimished the service of his fellow servicemen. I gave a link to his own acknowledged testimony.
How does that make me a hypocrite.
No, I have never served in the military. Does that mean I am not entitled to look at his Winter Soldier testimony and have an opinion on it?
Don't tell me you are going to be the next Elaine Donnelly here are you? Someone who very much likes to talk about DEFENDING SERVICE MEMBERS but has absolutely no dog in any dogfight whatsoever.
I comment on John Kerry's self acknowledged testimony about the service of others in the military during Vietnam and I am compared to a woman who thinks gay people are waiting to take pics of people in showers?
How about just despising him because he is an incredible liar? How about abhoring him because he is a cheat and a buffoon who diminishes the service of others?
So it isn't extreme for someone who has never served and appears to never have had anything to do with military or veterans to out and out accuse a Senator who served with distinction and an earlier meaningless quagmire for the sake of our country - who could have dodged that service like so many of his wealthy peers - of attacking people in uniform?
Where were you when the Republicans were slashing benefits for those same soldiers? Oh, lalalalalalalala.
I would have to agree. Attacking Kerry's military service so extremely and disingenuously was about a dirty as politics gets. They maligned him.
Kerry service record and was an officer. He did his duty. They cast aspersions on all of the medals he recieved including three purple hearts and they questioned his patriotism for questioning the war policy when he got home. Apparently, the Republicans beleive questioning war policy is anti-patriotic but they have it exactly backwards.
Bush chided, "You're with us or against us." I'm sorry to say that I and 71% percent of the country have decided "against us" where "us" is Bush and Cheney policy but probably just because of the Iraq war, torture, surveillance, executive power grab, Katrina response and lack of accountability but beside that, "One heck of a job Bushie."
Now if you want to get all annoyed with Kerry's legislative productivity and dismiss his voting record because to you it counts for nothing, let's talk about the problems this country is facing and how we got here.
You can only have an opinion, especially supportive of the war, or critical of the war's critics if you served.
Unless you have a critical opinion of the war, or it's supporters, regardless of any "dogs in the fight," in which case your opinion is authentic.
Or, in its most extreme parsing - even if you served in the past, unless you are actually serving/have served in this war, right now, well, then you're still a chickenhawk because you support a fight wherein "you don't have a dog."
I love the logic. Especially the last bit (which I'm not accusing Ms. Grrl of having, since she's signing herself as *formerly* USNR, so I assume that for her, past service is a qualifier.
I'm a retired soldier, with 24 years of wearing tye-dyed green. I got shot at, but nothing hit. I'm the son of a retired soldier, one with 5 Purple Hearts from Vietnam and 2 more from Korea - a soldier who did not use a rule (3 PH and you can go home) intended for an enlisted force fed by draftees. Of course, he was a professional officer. Lieutenant Kerry was an officer. Who had to volunteer multiple times to get where he finally ended up... and then left early.
That's my issue with Senator Kerry's service. I couldn't imagine using a rule intended for enlisted personnel to remove myself from harm's way early while leaving the soldiers for whom I was responsible still manning the ramparts.
Obviously, mileage can vary on this issue.
As for Senator Kerry's legislative accomplishments, I'd just as soon they all (his fellow travelers in the Congress) have small numbers of bills to their credit. They cause less mischief that way, and give judges fewer reasons to legislate from the bench.
I'd rather they urge the Administrations of either party enforce the laws they've already in place, rather than gin up a whole new set of snares for an unwary public, or rob Peter to give Paul something cool because he's one of their donors.
Yeah, government has its role and its utility - ask post-Union Scots who benefitted from the professionalization of local governance over clan/Kirk-bred autocracy.
But you can have too much meddlesome interference in everyday life - and that's a disease from both sides of the aisle.
I've blathered myself way off topic here - I just wanted to point out that every citizen has a dog in the fight, some simply more of them than others, and SwirlyGrrl's filter is inapt in a democratic society. It's very Heinleinian, though, in a Starship Trooperish way.
You preach beliefs you do not follow; that is hypocrisy. If you believe it is wrong to diminish the service of servicemen, then you should not diminish the service of Lieutenant Junior Grade Kerry.
Lt Kerry was called before Congress, sworn to tell the truth, and asked questions. He answered those questions truthfully and served his country honorably in doing so, yet you question that.
Do you hate all the servicemen who came home from Vietnam, or just the ones who told the truth about what happened there?
You pointed out that Kerry had only sponsored bills you choose to acknowledge he sponsored. Wow. Look, you're picking and choosing what counts so you can narrow down his accomplishments. Also, in the last 9 and a half years, Kerry was in the minority party for most of that time. And a minority unusually disenfranchised in the history of the Senate. Dismissing bills swallowed up by the majority party is just as unfair as dismissing bills he co-sponsored. YOU are introducing your biases against Kerry to turn 588 bills he worked on into 7. I think its fair to say who thinks "less of John Kerry" than anyone else might not be impartial observer of his legislative record. By only acknowledging 1/84 of the bills he's worked on in 9 years, I think that's been shown quite clearly.
I laid out how I was measuring his legislative ability and I used thomas.loc.gov which is comprehensive and impartial.
I can't imagine comparing anyone's record in a different fashion. Did you follow the links and look at the nonsense that counts on his record,or any Senator's record - they all do it.
I think very little of John Kerry as a person. I think less of Ted Kennedy as a person.. Yet I will freely acknowledge that Kennedy is a very effective Senator. Now if I were to say Kennedy was useless, then you could argue that it's sour grapes.
Your distillation of it, however, was not. You manufactured your complaint. You crafted it by going through his legislative record and applying your own arbitrary criteria on what work counted so as to create the impression of an objective proof of your subjective opinion of John Kerry. But your criteria was purely subjective so all you proved as that you don't much like John Kerry. Fine. You're allowed to. The people of the Commonwealth have shown a number of times that they disagree. Which they are allowed to, as well. They key is that you can't prop up your subjective opinion by claiming it is an objective fact. Your review of Kerry's legislative record was dripping in bias and all it does is show how you feel about John Kerry. It doesn't show anything objectively about John Kerry's actual service in the Senate.
if you use the definition "depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law".
However, I have laid out the criteria and would apply it uniformly when judging any Senator's record. So I feel it's fair and "not existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will"
So I fail to see what the problem is. I have judged him in the way I feel gets to the heart of the matter.
I would not give credit for any Senator's resolutions. It wasn't that I didn't agree with the resolutions....Jackie Robinson and Rosa Parks were great Americans. But acknowledging that is not legislation and shouldn't count in your record. I too am upset about the situation in Burma. Stating that should not count as legislation.
I would judge everyone by the same rules. What is unfair about that?
There are 100 Senators, you've already covered 1; 99 to go. Use the exact same rules and post a blog entry detailing what your criteria example as the "best performer" and the "worst performer". Give an average number of "meaningful bills" per Senator. Without a set of metrics that your capricious rules generate, you can't come to any conclusions on whether Kerry's seven bills in 9.5 years is meaningful or not. Context is extremely important in a study such as this. Otherwise, your conclusion is just bad science/statistics.
What if every other Senator subjected to your same line of scrutiny comes up with only 3 bills in 9.5 years? Kerry goes from "do-nothing" to Super Senator, man of Steel-y Resolve! I'm going to guess that this would be an unacceptable result for you and you will either not complete the required work to determine Kerry's actual place among his peers or you will continue to alter your criteria until the result suits your predetermined outcome. I await the answer, but I won't be holding my breath.
It won't be this week or next. But I have no problem with it. Of course, anyone else is free to do it too, lol. that was the point of setting out the criteria.
I think you will find Kennedy out-performs Kerry by a ridiculous margin.
To be fair, you have one thing wrong, it was 7 bills in 9.5 not 3. Let's not shortchange him.
If you are correct and Kerry is above average, then I would be depressed. If that's all the Senate were capable of? Yikes.
I didn't say that Kerry had 3 in 9.5. If you look, I said Kerry had 7 in 9.5, my comment about 3 in 9.5 was a juxtaposition to use as a "what if".
I'll state it again in slightly different language: What if you test all 100 Senators and find that every single one has only 3 meaningful acts in 9.5 years, EXCEPT for Kerry who is already determined to have 7 in 9.5 years?
See, that's subjective. YOU created a standard to judge his accomplishments. You exclude valid achievements and genuine work because it doesn't serve your opinion. You're just dressing up your subjectivity and calling it objective truth.
In just the current legislative session, I count 88 bills sponsored by John Kerry, including one as recently as Tuesday. Those are BILLS. Not resolutions, not even amendments. He's gotten 19 of those passed so far this session.
By YOUR standards, John McCain has done absolutely nothing for a year and a half. He's only even sponsored 21 bills this session and the only one to pass I'm pretty sure would fail your fluff test since it was a bill to study sites associated with the farm labor movement.
But hey, McCain's been busy. Lets check out Susan Collins. Another New England senator up for election. That should be a good comparison. Well, golly, she's only sponsored 38 bills this session. That's 50 behind John Kerry. Only one became law, but it was just about visitor services for Acadia National Park. Not sure the meets your standards for serious work. She did get approval for less than half of the amendments John Kerry got passed, but we're not counting those anyway.
Well, what about John Senunu in New Hampshire. What's he done this session. Ouch, he's only sponsored 12 bills. Less than 14% of John Kerry's work. Two be fair, though, he did get two bills passed. Both naming post offices. Oh, bother.
I made no such suggestion in my post. I noted that 19 of John Kerry's proposed amendments passed. 21 was the grand total of bills sponsored by one Senator John McCain. Just one bill to study sites related Cesar Chavez and the FLM passed.
You say you would apply your criteria uniformly, but when offered an opportunity to do so when it would round counter to your ideaological purpose, you decline. That's ample proof that facade of objectivity is just a facade. You can claim that you'd apply your standard uniformly all you want. You're not, though. You used it for a singular purpose.
...you selectively pick numbers -- and then imply that the man is a goof off.
You don't seem to consider the work he did in trying to pass legislation that your favored party was dedicated to blocking. (How many Democratic-initiated bills got passed by the prior GOP-dominated Congress or the current GOP-gridlock-causing one?) You also don't consider the possibility that some of his work got rolled into (or co-opted) by other bills.
BTW -- I've lived in Oklahoma and Georgia -- and you don't even count as a liberal in either of those places.
Kerry has ticked me off on a number of important issues -- but your piece is a sleazy and duplicitous hatchet job.
I said I personally had never been in the military. I don't see why one must have military credentials to have an opinion on John Kerry's Winter soldier testimony.
I don't know who Elaine Donnelly is. I'll follow the link later.
I think very little of John Kerry as a person. I think less of Ted Kennedy as a person..
Then its a good thing you don't care about politics because you must find yourself in the company of a lot of people who completely disagree with you.
Why don't you tell us what you think of George Bush as a person? You know the guy that got his cocaine record expunged and his girlfriend an illegal abortion, and skipped out on his Air Force Reserve obligation, and started a war using fraudulent justifications that has killed millions of innocent people and been financed with .7 billion in debt for political purpose, authorized torture, illegally surveilled US citizens throughout the US without a warrant and without FISA court authorization, and whose ideological blindness to the purpose of banking regulation has put us in the worst recession since the 20's.
Republicans put on a good show when it comes to 'character', judging everybody harshly except themselves.
Take Sen. Diaper Dave Vitter, whose diaper wearing cat house visits in DC and New Orleans ought to be enough to get Senate Republicans to ask him to step down, nope.
Take Larry "tap tap tap" Craig, who loves man-on-man sex but claims "I am not gay. I was not gay and I never will be gay" Good trick. Did Senate Republicans insist he step down? No.
So what we have here are hypocrite who judge others harshly using puritanical values as a measure that they themselves neither live up to nor hold each other accountable for.
Then there's Sen. Stevens, indicted for corruption, one of only ten in the history of the Senate to be indicted while in office.
Republicans used to have character. Now it just a campaign strategy.
John Kerry's biggest problem in my book is that he thinks with his mouth open. The answers he gives to a question include all the considerations he thinks of along the way. Like a teacher, no a politician. His patrician airs are a bit annoying but no more obnoxious that George Bush's folksy and inarticulate manufactured Texan patter - not bad for a kid who lived in CT, went to Andover and Yale. I digress. I don't think Kerry works as hard or effectively as Kennedy but he votes the right way for me so that's some consolation.
Conservatives hate Kennedy because he's so effective. No one has been more productive in the Senate since he took the seat in 1962.
Maybe you can tell us why you don't think much of Ted Kennedy as a person, or Jimmy Carter another conservative whipping boy. Republicans have become the party that preaches hate.
of that particular quote was that how I feel about Kerry's record had nothing to do with how I feel about him as a person. You took the quote out of context. The rest of it was an acknowledgement of the fact that Kennedy is an effective legislator.
This discussion keeps going off in tangents.
The point of the post was that it is shameful that so much press goes to fluff issues.
My methods are being questioned, but no one has offered a reasonable alternative.
My conclusions are not to the liking of some, so I am being personally attacked. Whatever. Try coming up with a ration, germane response.
But it's a fact that you feel that way about both Senators. And you don't think that informs your opinion about their performance?
What if Kerry had been wildly productive passing progressive legislation? Then you'd complain about his politics. The real point is that you don't like his politics. You just thought you could get a bunch of Democrats to turn on him by portraying him as unproductive.
If you're interested, answer the charges I levied about Republicans judgmental politicking, how they don't live up to their own standards for character and how they don;t hold their colleagues accountable for them either, which tells you, it's pretty much an empty promise.
By the way, I agree completely about how corporate media is not covering the truth. They were complicit taking us to war and they repeat factually incorrect and misleading talking points faxed from the White House to Fox, endlessly and breathlessly. No, we're in a bad way when it comes to the fourth estate.
admitted that I think Kennedy is very productive. At no point have I commented on the content of the actual legislation, proposed or passed. I said point blank that while I don't like either, I believe Kennedy is far more productive.
Comments
Why link to rubbish like this?
By Michael Kerpan
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:14am
BostonMaggie is a right-wing political flack.
Why I linked to her post
By adamg
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 8:53am
She's a local blogger writing about one of our senators.
Agreed
By eeka
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:27am
Yeah, some of the linking here bothers me too. It's one thing to have balance, and there definitely are posters and linkees here who disagree with one another on a number of issues.
I agree on the "rubbish" bit. Boston Maggie is illogical and makes her extremist points by picking and choosing which facts she'll acknowledge. Similarly, there's that Pundit Review person whose posts make racist and homophobic hate speech show up in the UH sidebar. Ew.
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Illogical?
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:06pm
How?
What have I not counted from his actual record that should be counted? Resolutions? I wouldn't count anyone's. Amendments? That's on someone else's work. Stuff that never sees the light of day? To me that's like when people don't want little league games to have scores.
What is extremist about the view that I think John Kerry doesn't work hard enough as a Senator? I haven't heard anyone offer anything concrete as to his accomplishments.
Not for nothing as the saying goes.....but it is hard being a Republican in Massachusetts, lol.
Poor criteria
By Kaz
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 2:16pm
I think your criteria need revision if what you wrote above is true (sorry, but I haven't looked at your original post to read all of the criteria yet, I just saw your comments here so far and took exception below to the way in which I saw the scientific method being abused). To whit, you don't include amendments. I think we all understand that our legislative process is fraught with substantial delay and therefore moves at an agonizingly slow pace. Imagine if Senators were not able to adapt current legislation to something amenable to all. If you don't agree with a current bill, then you would have to introduce a brand new one with all of the committee assignments and unacceptable sections that would require others to fail it and submit their own new bill, in perpetuum.
Amendments are as important, if not more important, than the generation of new bills. A successful amendment often stands as the cornerstone of bipartisan decision making. While the majority may have dropped an audacious hack of a bill on the minority's desk knowing it will pass as is, the minority may be able to rein in some of the wilder charges within the bill with an amendment that both can agree to, likely under threat of filibuster by the minority. Thus, the minority Senator who is able to have amendments passed has accomplished as much as the bill's originator, especially in light of the two-party strategics our government is trapped within.
Furthermore, I believe there are politics that a "bill count" method will not encompass. How many bills did Kerry come up with, but Kennedy was allowed to bring to the chamber? Kennedy's seniority and considerable clout with the Republicans would have given those bills a much better chance than if a recently failed presidential candidate (who spent months hammering on the ugly side of Republican policy makers) had brought the issue up instead. Kerry would end up as a cosponsor that you have ignored and there's little way for you or I to know which, if any, these bills were as well. For you, that means you have accepted to not only lose them from Kerry's list of contributions, but doubly in error, ascribe them to Kennedy thus driving further the difference by which you measure the two Senators' usefulness. Conjointly, in the past 9.5 years that you are measuring, Kerry was a presidential candidate for a good portion of that time. This means time was spent away from legislation and on the campaign trail (for example, by my account, I can only find 1 sponsored bill introduced by John McCain in 2008 and it was a campaign ploy to remove the gas tax). I find his participation in the 2004 campaign to be meaningful politically, even though it may have taken away from his participation legislatively. Either way, that time lost from his role in the Senate is attributed by your conclusion to a lack of "hard work as a Senator" as opposed to substantial hard work as a Presidential Nominee.
From what is discussed here, anyways, I don't believe your criteria accurately reflect what it takes to be a "hard-working" Senator and they certainly don't reflect what it takes to be a "hard working" politician.
Here's an idea
By merlinmurph
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:46pm
Don't follow any links that go to her blog. Pretty simple, huh?
Define "political flack" please
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:42am
My post pointed out that in the last nine years John Kerry sponsored just 8 bills that resulted in true legislation.
Charly on the MTA came out and challenged that. He demanded that I go to Thomas.loc.gov and see all the great bills John Kerry has sponsored.
So I did. I read all the legislation that can be properly attributed to John Kerry. I took all the bills he sponsored (not co-sponsored). I dropped everything that was fluff and everything that went into limbo.
Guess what? Charly was right. I was wrong. It was 7 bills, not 8, in 9 and half years not 9 years.
How does saying that make me a political flack? How does pointing out that people getting riled about the TMZ pics is just nonsense make me a political flack? How does stating that it's sad that more people know John Kerry spent the weekend on Nantucket than know the name of their own State rep make me a political flack?
I think people just don't like to admit that Kerry is a loser so they become peeved with those who point it out.
It's true I am a Republican. So what? Does that mean it's less tragic that our junior Senator is a useless barnacle on the Commonwealth because a Republican points it out?
As far as rightwing.........that one always makes me laugh. It's all in your perspective! People from outside Massachusetts see me as too liberal. People in Massachusetts on the left see me as too conservative. It's just a label, I could care less. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I do object to your use of the term to dismiss facts.
A fact or opinion? "Kerry is a loser."
By Anonymous
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:53am
Discuss.
Opinion
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:14am
It's an opinion and it's my opinion.
And yet
By Gareth
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:04am
You say Kerry is "an incredible liar... a cheat and a buffoon who diminishes the service of others"
And yet here you are doing the same. Shall we add hypocrite to your inventory?
Have you ever served your country in any fashion?
I have never lied about
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:17am
I have never lied about Senator Kerry. He has sat before committees and dimished the service of his fellow servicemen. I gave a link to his own acknowledged testimony.
How does that make me a hypocrite.
No, I have never served in the military. Does that mean I am not entitled to look at his Winter Soldier testimony and have an opinion on it?
Name Rank Serial Number
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:27am
Don't tell me you are going to be the next Elaine Donnelly here are you? Someone who very much likes to talk about DEFENDING SERVICE MEMBERS but has absolutely no dog in any dogfight whatsoever.
SwirlyGrrl, formerly USNR
Elaine Donnelly
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:33pm
I comment on John Kerry's self acknowledged testimony about the service of others in the military during Vietnam and I am compared to a woman who thinks gay people are waiting to take pics of people in showers?
I think that's a little extreme.
Welcome
By merlinmurph
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:48pm
Welcome to SwirlyWorld
What is extreme
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 2:06pm
So it isn't extreme for someone who has never served and appears to never have had anything to do with military or veterans to out and out accuse a Senator who served with distinction and an earlier meaningless quagmire for the sake of our country - who could have dodged that service like so many of his wealthy peers - of attacking people in uniform?
Where were you when the Republicans were slashing benefits for those same soldiers? Oh, lalalalalalalala.
I have to agree, attacking Kerry's military service...
By Anonymous
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 2:20pm
I would have to agree. Attacking Kerry's military service so extremely and disingenuously was about a dirty as politics gets. They maligned him.
Kerry service record and was an officer. He did his duty. They cast aspersions on all of the medals he recieved including three purple hearts and they questioned his patriotism for questioning the war policy when he got home. Apparently, the Republicans beleive questioning war policy is anti-patriotic but they have it exactly backwards.
Bush chided, "You're with us or against us." I'm sorry to say that I and 71% percent of the country have decided "against us" where "us" is Bush and Cheney policy but probably just because of the Iraq war, torture, surveillance, executive power grab, Katrina response and lack of accountability but beside that, "One heck of a job Bushie."
Now if you want to get all annoyed with Kerry's legislative productivity and dismiss his voting record because to you it counts for nothing, let's talk about the problems this country is facing and how we got here.
Hmmmm. No dog in the fight, eh?
By John_of_Argghhh
Fri, 08/01/2008 - 10:16am
Ah, yes, the chickenhawk meme.
You can only have an opinion, especially supportive of the war, or critical of the war's critics if you served.
Unless you have a critical opinion of the war, or it's supporters, regardless of any "dogs in the fight," in which case your opinion is authentic.
Or, in its most extreme parsing - even if you served in the past, unless you are actually serving/have served in this war, right now, well, then you're still a chickenhawk because you support a fight wherein "you don't have a dog."
I love the logic. Especially the last bit (which I'm not accusing Ms. Grrl of having, since she's signing herself as *formerly* USNR, so I assume that for her, past service is a qualifier.
I'm a retired soldier, with 24 years of wearing tye-dyed green. I got shot at, but nothing hit. I'm the son of a retired soldier, one with 5 Purple Hearts from Vietnam and 2 more from Korea - a soldier who did not use a rule (3 PH and you can go home) intended for an enlisted force fed by draftees. Of course, he was a professional officer. Lieutenant Kerry was an officer. Who had to volunteer multiple times to get where he finally ended up... and then left early.
That's my issue with Senator Kerry's service. I couldn't imagine using a rule intended for enlisted personnel to remove myself from harm's way early while leaving the soldiers for whom I was responsible still manning the ramparts.
Obviously, mileage can vary on this issue.
As for Senator Kerry's legislative accomplishments, I'd just as soon they all (his fellow travelers in the Congress) have small numbers of bills to their credit. They cause less mischief that way, and give judges fewer reasons to legislate from the bench.
I'd rather they urge the Administrations of either party enforce the laws they've already in place, rather than gin up a whole new set of snares for an unwary public, or rob Peter to give Paul something cool because he's one of their donors.
Yeah, government has its role and its utility - ask post-Union Scots who benefitted from the professionalization of local governance over clan/Kirk-bred autocracy.
But you can have too much meddlesome interference in everyday life - and that's a disease from both sides of the aisle.
I've blathered myself way off topic here - I just wanted to point out that every citizen has a dog in the fight, some simply more of them than others, and SwirlyGrrl's filter is inapt in a democratic society. It's very Heinleinian, though, in a Starship Trooperish way.
How it makes you a hypocrite
By Gareth
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 2:03pm
You preach beliefs you do not follow; that is hypocrisy. If you believe it is wrong to diminish the service of servicemen, then you should not diminish the service of Lieutenant Junior Grade Kerry.
Lt Kerry was called before Congress, sworn to tell the truth, and asked questions. He answered those questions truthfully and served his country honorably in doing so, yet you question that.
Do you hate all the servicemen who came home from Vietnam, or just the ones who told the truth about what happened there?
You pointed out that Kerry
By BStu
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:15am
You pointed out that Kerry had only sponsored bills you choose to acknowledge he sponsored. Wow. Look, you're picking and choosing what counts so you can narrow down his accomplishments. Also, in the last 9 and a half years, Kerry was in the minority party for most of that time. And a minority unusually disenfranchised in the history of the Senate. Dismissing bills swallowed up by the majority party is just as unfair as dismissing bills he co-sponsored. YOU are introducing your biases against Kerry to turn 588 bills he worked on into 7. I think its fair to say who thinks "less of John Kerry" than anyone else might not be impartial observer of his legislative record. By only acknowledging 1/84 of the bills he's worked on in 9 years, I think that's been shown quite clearly.
I Did Have A Set of Criteria
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:24am
I laid out how I was measuring his legislative ability and I used thomas.loc.gov which is comprehensive and impartial.
I can't imagine comparing anyone's record in a different fashion. Did you follow the links and look at the nonsense that counts on his record,or any Senator's record - they all do it.
I think very little of John Kerry as a person. I think less of Ted Kennedy as a person.. Yet I will freely acknowledge that Kennedy is a very effective Senator. Now if I were to say Kennedy was useless, then you could argue that it's sour grapes.
IT was comprehensive and impartial
By BStu
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:53am
Your distillation of it, however, was not. You manufactured your complaint. You crafted it by going through his legislative record and applying your own arbitrary criteria on what work counted so as to create the impression of an objective proof of your subjective opinion of John Kerry. But your criteria was purely subjective so all you proved as that you don't much like John Kerry. Fine. You're allowed to. The people of the Commonwealth have shown a number of times that they disagree. Which they are allowed to, as well. They key is that you can't prop up your subjective opinion by claiming it is an objective fact. Your review of Kerry's legislative record was dripping in bias and all it does is show how you feel about John Kerry. It doesn't show anything objectively about John Kerry's actual service in the Senate.
It Is Arbitrary
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 11:59am
if you use the definition "depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law".
However, I have laid out the criteria and would apply it uniformly when judging any Senator's record. So I feel it's fair and "not existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will"
So I fail to see what the problem is. I have judged him in the way I feel gets to the heart of the matter.
I would not give credit for any Senator's resolutions. It wasn't that I didn't agree with the resolutions....Jackie Robinson and Rosa Parks were great Americans. But acknowledging that is not legislation and shouldn't count in your record. I too am upset about the situation in Burma. Stating that should not count as legislation.
I would judge everyone by the same rules. What is unfair about that?
Put your money where your mouth is
By Kaz
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:28pm
There are 100 Senators, you've already covered 1; 99 to go. Use the exact same rules and post a blog entry detailing what your criteria example as the "best performer" and the "worst performer". Give an average number of "meaningful bills" per Senator. Without a set of metrics that your capricious rules generate, you can't come to any conclusions on whether Kerry's seven bills in 9.5 years is meaningful or not. Context is extremely important in a study such as this. Otherwise, your conclusion is just bad science/statistics.
What if every other Senator subjected to your same line of scrutiny comes up with only 3 bills in 9.5 years? Kerry goes from "do-nothing" to Super Senator, man of Steel-y Resolve! I'm going to guess that this would be an unacceptable result for you and you will either not complete the required work to determine Kerry's actual place among his peers or you will continue to alter your criteria until the result suits your predetermined outcome. I await the answer, but I won't be holding my breath.
That Would Actually Be Interesting
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:52pm
It won't be this week or next. But I have no problem with it. Of course, anyone else is free to do it too, lol. that was the point of setting out the criteria.
I think you will find Kennedy out-performs Kerry by a ridiculous margin.
To be fair, you have one thing wrong, it was 7 bills in 9.5 not 3. Let's not shortchange him.
If you are correct and Kerry is above average, then I would be depressed. If that's all the Senate were capable of? Yikes.
Misread
By Kaz
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:43pm
I didn't say that Kerry had 3 in 9.5. If you look, I said Kerry had 7 in 9.5, my comment about 3 in 9.5 was a juxtaposition to use as a "what if".
I'll state it again in slightly different language: What if you test all 100 Senators and find that every single one has only 3 meaningful acts in 9.5 years, EXCEPT for Kerry who is already determined to have 7 in 9.5 years?
Gotcha
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 3:29pm
point taken
YOU have judged him in the way YOU feel...
By BStu
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:59pm
See, that's subjective. YOU created a standard to judge his accomplishments. You exclude valid achievements and genuine work because it doesn't serve your opinion. You're just dressing up your subjectivity and calling it objective truth.
In just the current legislative session, I count 88 bills sponsored by John Kerry, including one as recently as Tuesday. Those are BILLS. Not resolutions, not even amendments. He's gotten 19 of those passed so far this session.
By YOUR standards, John McCain has done absolutely nothing for a year and a half. He's only even sponsored 21 bills this session and the only one to pass I'm pretty sure would fail your fluff test since it was a bill to study sites associated with the farm labor movement.
But hey, McCain's been busy. Lets check out Susan Collins. Another New England senator up for election. That should be a good comparison. Well, golly, she's only sponsored 38 bills this session. That's 50 behind John Kerry. Only one became law, but it was just about visitor services for Acadia National Park. Not sure the meets your standards for serious work. She did get approval for less than half of the amendments John Kerry got passed, but we're not counting those anyway.
Well, what about John Senunu in New Hampshire. What's he done this session. Ouch, he's only sponsored 12 bills. Less than 14% of John Kerry's work. Two be fair, though, he did get two bills passed. Both naming post offices. Oh, bother.
Can You Name Some Of Them
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:19pm
The 21 that passed, I mean. I did not see them in Thomas.loc.gov
Are you using a different source?
I am comfortable with my criteria as long as I apply it uniformly.
I haven't looked at anyone else, so I wouldn't comment on them.
However, I will say that I would not count naming a post office for a Senator on either side of the aisle.
21 that passed?
By BStu
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 3:16pm
I made no such suggestion in my post. I noted that 19 of John Kerry's proposed amendments passed. 21 was the grand total of bills sponsored by one Senator John McCain. Just one bill to study sites related Cesar Chavez and the FLM passed.
You say you would apply your criteria uniformly, but when offered an opportunity to do so when it would round counter to your ideaological purpose, you decline. That's ample proof that facade of objectivity is just a facade. You can claim that you'd apply your standard uniformly all you want. You're not, though. You used it for a singular purpose.
Ok, to be clear
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 3:35pm
I don't think amendments should count for anyone. I think that's someone else's work. But if you would like to count them.....that's your perogative.
I based my opinion a certain set of criteria and would apply it across the board. I can't comment on any other Senator because I haven't looked.
Once I did or saw that someone else did, then I could agree or disagree.
If I saw Kerry passed 7 bills in 9.5 years and you bring up amendments, that's fine. I am just saying it's apples and oranges.
When I do look at the others, and I will at some point in time, everyone will be judged on bills that passed only.
If you want to look at his record from a different angle, feel free.
It doesn't make my opinion wrong, it makes it different.
Your post is utterly dishonest because....
By Michael Kerpan
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:08am
...you selectively pick numbers -- and then imply that the man is a goof off.
You don't seem to consider the work he did in trying to pass legislation that your favored party was dedicated to blocking. (How many Democratic-initiated bills got passed by the prior GOP-dominated Congress or the current GOP-gridlock-causing one?) You also don't consider the possibility that some of his work got rolled into (or co-opted) by other bills.
BTW -- I've lived in Oklahoma and Georgia -- and you don't even count as a liberal in either of those places.
Kerry has ticked me off on a number of important issues -- but your piece is a sleazy and duplicitous hatchet job.
I Didn't Say I Had No Dog in the Fight
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 11:49am
I said I personally had never been in the military. I don't see why one must have military credentials to have an opinion on John Kerry's Winter soldier testimony.
I don't know who Elaine Donnelly is. I'll follow the link later.
character
By Anonymous
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:01pm
Then its a good thing you don't care about politics because you must find yourself in the company of a lot of people who completely disagree with you.
Why don't you tell us what you think of George Bush as a person? You know the guy that got his cocaine record expunged and his girlfriend an illegal abortion, and skipped out on his Air Force Reserve obligation, and started a war using fraudulent justifications that has killed millions of innocent people and been financed with .7 billion in debt for political purpose, authorized torture, illegally surveilled US citizens throughout the US without a warrant and without FISA court authorization, and whose ideological blindness to the purpose of banking regulation has put us in the worst recession since the 20's.
Republicans put on a good show when it comes to 'character', judging everybody harshly except themselves.
Take Sen. Diaper Dave Vitter, whose diaper wearing cat house visits in DC and New Orleans ought to be enough to get Senate Republicans to ask him to step down, nope.
Take Larry "tap tap tap" Craig, who loves man-on-man sex but claims "I am not gay. I was not gay and I never will be gay" Good trick. Did Senate Republicans insist he step down? No.
So what we have here are hypocrite who judge others harshly using puritanical values as a measure that they themselves neither live up to nor hold each other accountable for.
Then there's Sen. Stevens, indicted for corruption, one of only ten in the history of the Senate to be indicted while in office.
Republicans used to have character. Now it just a campaign strategy.
John Kerry's biggest problem in my book is that he thinks with his mouth open. The answers he gives to a question include all the considerations he thinks of along the way. Like a teacher, no a politician. His patrician airs are a bit annoying but no more obnoxious that George Bush's folksy and inarticulate manufactured Texan patter - not bad for a kid who lived in CT, went to Andover and Yale. I digress. I don't think Kerry works as hard or effectively as Kennedy but he votes the right way for me so that's some consolation.
Conservatives hate Kennedy because he's so effective. No one has been more productive in the Senate since he took the seat in 1962.
Maybe you can tell us why you don't think much of Ted Kennedy as a person, or Jimmy Carter another conservative whipping boy. Republicans have become the party that preaches hate.
The Point
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 12:46pm
of that particular quote was that how I feel about Kerry's record had nothing to do with how I feel about him as a person. You took the quote out of context. The rest of it was an acknowledgement of the fact that Kennedy is an effective legislator.
This discussion keeps going off in tangents.
The point of the post was that it is shameful that so much press goes to fluff issues.
My methods are being questioned, but no one has offered a reasonable alternative.
My conclusions are not to the liking of some, so I am being personally attacked. Whatever. Try coming up with a ration, germane response.
But it's a fact that you
By Anonymous
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:03pm
But it's a fact that you feel that way about both Senators. And you don't think that informs your opinion about their performance?
What if Kerry had been wildly productive passing progressive legislation? Then you'd complain about his politics. The real point is that you don't like his politics. You just thought you could get a bunch of Democrats to turn on him by portraying him as unproductive.
If you're interested, answer the charges I levied about Republicans judgmental politicking, how they don't live up to their own standards for character and how they don;t hold their colleagues accountable for them either, which tells you, it's pretty much an empty promise.
By the way, I agree completely about how corporate media is not covering the truth. They were complicit taking us to war and they repeat factually incorrect and misleading talking points faxed from the White House to Fox, endlessly and breathlessly. No, we're in a bad way when it comes to the fourth estate.
But I Have Already
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:09pm
admitted that I think Kennedy is very productive. At no point have I commented on the content of the actual legislation, proposed or passed. I said point blank that while I don't like either, I believe Kennedy is far more productive.
Ha ha ha
By Gareth
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:01pm
"how I feel about Kerry's record had nothing to do with how I feel about him as a person."
Now say that again, with a straight face. It's so funny!
Do you even know that you're lying?
To Quote George Costanza
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:14pm
"It's not a lie if you believe it!"
Kidding aside you either aren't reading my comments in full or you just want to pick.
I don't like either Senator.
I think Kerry is not productive.
I think Kennedy is productive.
There are plenty of issues that are not right or left, they are only pro-Massachusetts or not. On those issues, Kennedy does more for Massachusetts.
I can separate how I feel about both men personally otherwise I would not be able to acknowledge anything positive about Kennedy's record.
OK, I've Got To Go Work
By Bostonmaggie
Thu, 07/31/2008 - 1:20pm
I'm not ignoring you, I've just run out of time for this.