City Councilors Tim McCarthy (Hyde Park, Roslindale and Mattapan) and Michelle Wu (at large) hope to hold a hearing at which MBTA officials can explain the differing fares for commuter-rail stations within Boston city limits - in particular at stations south of Forest Hills.
In a request to the entire council for permission to hold a hearing, the two point to differences in fares between Roslindale Village and Forest Hills, even though the two are just a quarter-mile apart, and between Fairmount and Readville stations.
The cheaper fares at some stations are causing issues with parking they say - commuters are flooding the Fairmount-station area, unfairly burdening nearby residents, while the Readville parking lots remain largely empty. They add the Forest Hills parking lots are swamped by people looking to avoid the higher fares at stations such as Roslindale Village.
"The zone fares in southwest Boston are screwy, at best," McCarthy said.
The council considers their hearing request at its regular Wednesday meeting, which starts today at noon in the council's fifth-floor chambers in City Hall.
Like the job UHub is doing? Consider a contribution. Thanks!
Ad:
Comments
Roslindale Vill --> Forest Hills, only 1/4 mile?
By knit picker (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:07am
That seems suspect - looks to me to be a bit over a mile.
A quarter mile
By Ari O
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:37am
After the first mile.
The city council has zero
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:26am
The city council has zero control over MBCR fares, so this is an entirely meaningless gesture. It's something, though, and up until this point McCarthy has been getting a reputation for doing nothing, especially among his many constituents who rely on the train.
If this is enough of an issue
By but (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:51am
If this is enough of an issue the city council can petition the legislature and the MBTA to create a special fare zone; or mandate that within a MBTA served city/town CR fares should be designated the same zone. I.E. all stops in Boston would be the same fare, all stops in Newton be the same, all stops in Wellesley be the same, etc.
It mostly does...
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 5:35pm
Station & Miles
Melrose:
Zone 1
Melrose Highlands 7.5
Melrose/Cedar Pk 6.7
Wyoming Hill 6.2
Wellesley:
Zone 3
Wellesley Farms 12.5
Wellesley Hills 13.5
Wellesley Sq 14.7
Needham
Zone 2
Hersey 10.9
Needham Ctr 12.7
Needham Heights 13.7
Needham Jct 12
Newton
Zone 1
Newtonville 8.1
Zone 2
West Newton 9.1
Auburndale 10.2
Then you get to Boston...
Zone 1A
Back Bay 1.2
Rugggles 2.2
Newmarket 2.3
Uphams Cnr 2.9
Four Cnrs/Geneva 3.9
Talbot Ave 4.8
Forest Hills 5
Morton St 5.7
Fairmount 8.2
Zone 1
Bellevue 7.2
Highland 7.6
West Roxbury 8
Hyde Park 8.4
Zone 2
Readville 9.5
Endicott 10.9
So if you are ib Hyde Park Square, and walk one way (Hyde Park), it will cost you $4.10 round trip. Go the other direction (Fairmont), it will cost you $11.50 round trip.
But if you have to park your car? And drive a mile to Readville? It will cost you $12.50 round trip plus parking. Crazy right?
Thanks for starting to pull
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 5:44pm
Thanks for starting to pull these numbers together. I wanted to, but had to do some actual work. I'd point out, however, that Endicott is in Dedham.
Forgot to remove it!
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 6:07pm
Forgot to remove it!
Good catch!
Not Meaningless
By Rob Not Verified
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:14am
While obviously the city and Council have no direct control over fares, at least calling in the MBTA officials to explain their rationale on the fare differences is worth it, imo. This is another step in pushing this issue with the T as many residents have already been doing. This brings more attention to it so worthwhile as I see it.
When they dropped the
By Francesca Piccirilli (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:49pm
When they dropped the Fairmont fare to $2.50 I was appalled. I wrote directly to the MBTA. The answer I received was that, "Cleary Square was a hub for bus lines therefore they dropped the fare to $2.50. I wrote back to them and said Readville had the 33 and 32 bus route and it was only 3 minutes down the track to Fairmont not Cleary Sq., they responded that "they needed to increase ridership on the Fairmont Line." I tried to get commuters on the Fairmont train at Readville to sign a petition they either looked at me like I was insane. Turned their faces pretending to be asleep or told me their employees are paying for their monthly passes and didn't care about the cost. The MBTA did increase ridership on the Fairmont line. Most of Readville went and picked the train up in Fairmont. Good job MBTA.
The relevant fare information
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:52am
The relevant fare information isn't in the story, so:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/i5BS7Zd.png[/img]
As a Readville resident, it's frustrating to be paying the same fare in the city of Boston that people in Lynn, Reading, or Weymouth pay. (source)
Are Lynn, Reading & Weymouth further from the Boston term. sta.?
By issacg
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:23am
If not, I don't think I understand the angle - unless you're making the argument that Boston contributes more to the MBTA per capita than those towns, or something along those lines. Is that the source of the frustration?
Wow, that is ridiculous. And
By Kinopio
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:25am
Wow, that is ridiculous. And isn't parking at Reading free for Reading residents?
For pay
By ElizaLeila
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 6:46pm
It's almost free.
I think Reading was being overrun by non-Readingites for parking needs at the Depot so they started the permitting system in the mid-90's.
http://www.readingma.gov/parks-and-forestry-divisi...
The point of a transportation
By anon (not verified)
Thu, 10/01/2015 - 3:41pm
The point of a transportation system is to take you to places where you don't live. So limiting it based on residence makes no sense.
This needs to be redisplayed by distance
By SwirlyGrrl
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:31am
You might be surprised at how the picture looks different.
Also, Readville isn't any closer to South Station than Wegemere or Winchester are to North Station, and those stations are Zone 1.
Lynn? Could actually be closer than Readville.
The point being: just because it is still in the city limits doesn't mean that it isn't as far out as some "suburban" stations in other directions. All the same, it still seems like too much of a jump.
All the same, it still seems
By Rob Not Verified
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:44am
I'd be curious to know why the jump is so steep from 1A to 1.
Actually,
By roadman
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 1:35pm
Zone 1A pricing has nothing to do with distance from North or South Station. Rather, the original Zone 1A stations provide direct connections into the rapid transit system, they are priced the same as a rapid transit fare for inbound passengers originating from, or outbound passengers exiting at, that station. Don't know about the additional stations added since - probably to please some political hacks.
Also note that the fares for CR passengers coming inbound to a Zone 1A station are the same as if they were to travel all the way into North or South Station (i.e. you can't get a lower "interzone' fare to or from Zone 1A from outlying zones).
BS
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:48pm
Then explain West Medford, Malden, Chelsea and Fairmount?
http://www.mbta.com/fares_and_passes/rail/#zonechart
I was talking about original Zone 1A
By roadman
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 1:37pm
stations, of which Malden - with the Orange Line connection - was one of. Was not aware that other stations without rapid transit connections have since been designated zone 1A. I've revised my posting to reflect this.
Zone 1A stations provide
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:52pm
That doesn't explain how EVERY STATION on the Fairmount line (or "indigo line" as some want to call it) is Zone 1A except Readville, which has just as many bus connections as Fairmount or Upham's or whatever, but languishes in Zone 2.
Zone 1A pricing has nothing
By Rob Not Verified
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 1:14pm
That explains the 1A pricing and makes sense. Doesn't explain the significant price jump between 1A to 1 though.
Then why price Quincy Ctr at
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 6:05pm
Then why price Quincy Ctr at Zone 1 and Braintree as Zone 2?
Zone 1A is the subway
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:39pm
And as such equates to the subway fare. Those unfortunate souls who dare to want a reusable charlie card with their monthly pass on it aside, a "paper" monthly ticket for the subway is also good on the commuter rail for Zone 1A.
If the two fares were completely decoupled instead of only mostly decoupled, then Zone 1A fares would likely jump to $5.
I doubt that's true about
By roadman
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 2:35pm
a CharlieTicket being good on CR trains for Zone 1A stations. For one thing, how can the conductor verify that there's sufficent value on the ticket and then deduct the cost of the fare? For another thing, I ocassionally see people going to Malden from North Station on Reading/Haverhill trains try to pay with a CharlieTicket, and be told by the conductor "No, that's not valid."
a MONTHLY CharlieTicket.
By anon (not verified)
Thu, 10/01/2015 - 3:43pm
a MONTHLY CharlieTicket.
Wrong Conclusion
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:47pm
The real question is why are the zone lines drawn where they are? Braintree is Zone 2, which is a great cost saving mechanism for anyone willing to spend time transferring off of the train there as they can avoid the huge fare jump involved in entering the city zone 1A yet pay no more for their subway ride as one who gets on in South Station. Guaranteed seat, too.
In the year 2175 we'll have the same problem in Lynn with riders jumping off at Zone 2 and getting the Blue Line. The question isn't why Zone 2 is $6.25, it's why Zone 1A doesn't end at 128 and everything and everyone inside of it pay Zone 1A (subway) fare.
Sorted by Distance
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 5:18pm
I think that the South Side trains get disorted by the extra 1.4 miles from South Station to Back Bay. (Framingham, Worcester, Needham, Franklin, Providence & Stoughton Lines).
Example if you get on at Roslindale and get off at Back Bay, it is only 5 miles. About half the train gets off at Back Bay not South Station.
(Info comes from MBTA.com - Distance, Zone and number of buses per station)
Station Distance Zone Cost Subway #Buses
Back Bay 1.2 1A $2.10 Y 2
Rugggles 2.2 1A $2.10 Y 13
JFK/Umass 2.3 1A $2.10 Y 3
Newmarket 2.3 1A $2.10 N -
Yawkey Station 2.5 1A $2.10 N -
Uphams Cnr 2.9 1A $2.10 N 1
Porter Square 3.4 1A $2.10 Y 5
Four Cnrs/Geneva 3.9 1A $2.10 N -
Malden Ctr 4.5 1A $2.10 Y 14
Chelsea 4.6 1A $2.10 N 5
Talbot Ave 4.8 1A $2.10 N -
Forest Hills 5 1A $2.10 Y 16
Morton St 5.7 1A $2.10 N 2
Wyoming Hill 6.2 1 $5.75 N 4
Belmont 6.4 1 $5.75 N 3
Roslindale Village 6.4 1 $5.75 N 6
Melrose/Cedar Pk 6.7 1 $5.75 N -
Bellevue 7.2 1 $5.75 N 4
Waverley 7.4 1 $5.75 N 2
Melrose Highlands 7.5 1 $5.75 N 1
Highland 7.6 1 $5.75 N 4
Quincy Ctr 7.9 1 $5.75 Y 14
West Roxbury 8 1 $5.75 N 3
Newtonville 8.1 1 $5.75 N 4
Fairmount 8.2 1A $2.10 N 1
Hyde Park 8.4 1 $5.75 N 3
West Newton 9.1 2 $6.25 N 2
Readville 9.5 2 $6.25 N 2
Waltham 9.9 2 $6.25 N 8
Auburndale 10.2 2 $6.25 N 2
Braintree 10.9 2 $6.25 Y 2
Endicott 10.9 2 $6.25 N -
Hersey 10.9 2 $6.25 N -
Lynn 11.5 2 $6.25 N 10
Dedham Corp. Ctr 11.8 2 $6.25 N -
Needham Jct 12 2 $6.25 N 1
Wellesley Farms 12.5 3 $7.00 N -
Needham Ctr 12.7 2 $6.25 N 1
Wellesley Hills 13.5 3 $7.00 N -
Needham Heights 13.7 2 $6.25 N 1
Wellesley Sq 14.7 3 $7.00 N -
Holbrook/Randolph 15 3 $7.00 N 2
Natick 17.7 4 $7.50 N -
Framingham 21.4 5 $8.50 N -
Ashland 25.2 6 $9.25 N -
The message I just sent to my city councilors
By Ben Quahog (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:56am
Dear Councilor,
I read this morning that Councilors McCarthy and Wu hope to hold a hearing on Commuter Rail prices, including those in Roslindale. This issue is very important to me: I have previously asked my state representatives to look into it. I hope that you will join Councilors McCarthy and Wu in trying to address it in the City Council.
I live near Roslindale Village and commute to work at Boston University. I normally bike, but during inclement weather I ride the Needham Line to Ruggles and transfer to an MBTA bus. The total round-trip cost is $14.70. I believe this is far too expensive.
The fare system is especially unfair for residents of Roslindale, Hyde Park, and West Roxbury. These communities are in Zone 1, where the fare is $5.75. All other Commuter Rail stops within the City of Boston are Zone 1A, with a fare of $2.10. Several other communities outside of Boston are categorized as Zone 1A, including Cambridge, Malden, and Chelsea.
I've never understood why I pay such a higher fare than other residents of Boston, or those in certain suburban communities, just to travel a few miles within the city limits. I also don't understand why there is no free transfer to the bus or subway when riding the Commuter Rail. My fiance and several of my neighbors choose to drive and park on city streets because it is significantly less expensive than the T.
All Commuter Rail stops within the city of Boston should be Zone 1, with a fare of $2.10. In order to decrease traffic, improve air quality, and reduce carbon emissions, public transportation should be incentivized with lower fares (and ideally better service).
Right on!
By Rob Not Verified
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:18am
n/t
Well said!
By BostonBria (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:37pm
i am a senior and I would love to take the Needham line into Boston. Oftentimes, i just need to get to Ruggles, but because of the expense, I drive rather than take public transportation. Other times, if I return to Roslindale around 8:00 I will also drive, as etaking the mbta from Forest Hills and bus, I feel ulnerable waiting at Forest Hills for buses that are irregular and often delayed in the evening. Roslindale is one of the most diverse in the city, among ages, ethnicities, and incomes. Reasonable public transportaion options for the Roslindale area is really quite limited.
Some of this, however, I understand.
By issacg
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:32am
W/r/t to my comment above, some of these concerns are a little different, particularly with respect to extra $$ for the transfer. That's absurd (and I thought that transfers used to be included - am I not remembering the pre-Charlie days correctly?).
I cannot agree with the last paragraph, however, for a couple of reasons having to do with the cost of operating commuter rail vs. subways/trolleys and some of the CR stops in Boston being significantly further away from the downtown core than stops in other municipalities, etc.
Why not ask Rep Sanchez?
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:47am
After all the state legislature has much more power over the MBTA.
The answer of course is that the State Legislature does a piss poor job of representing its constituents, Sanchez included.
Tried that last year
By Ben Quahog (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 1:29pm
Emailed Rep. Sanchez and my forgettable Senator last year. Received generic form letters from both.
Sanchez has never shown his
By Fitz (not verified)
Thu, 10/01/2015 - 9:11am
Sanchez has never shown his face in Roslindale despite representing part of it.
Great letter! I so want the
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:58am
Great letter! I so want the commuter rail to be a viable transit option -- but between the crappy frequency on the needham line and the fact it's SO EXPENSIVE to take from the square, I stick with busses. Which are totally awful in their own right, but at least include free transfers.
Great letter!
By Rockie
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:58am
I've wondered about this inequity too. In general, our public transportation serves some communities better than others. . . equalizing the fares would help at least in this instance. As for the rest of Roslindale, if you don't live near the Washington St or Belgrade bus lines the MBTA basically doesn't serve you. Justice for Roslindale transit!
Not true:
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:51pm
Not true:
Readville Station in Hyde Park is Zone 2, at $6.25.
Thanks for pointing this out
By Ben Quahog (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 1:30pm
I thought Readville was Dedham
Insiders and outsiders
By ckollett
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:01pm
The commuter rail fares are set up so that there is a big jump in price for any trip that crosses the invisible line between zone 1A and zone 1. If you stay entirely within zone 1A, the trip is inexpensive. If you stay entirely outside of zone 1A, the trip is inexpensive. If you cross that invisible line, the trip suddenly gets much more expensive (although if you take a long trip into the city you still pay a low fare per mile traveled). Some examples:
On the Needham Line, adding 1.4 miles to the trip more than doubles the cost per mile.
On the Providence Line, crossing into zone 1A instead of stopping at Hyde Park increases your cost by about 83% and your cost per mile by 50%. Hyde Park to South Station costs the same fare as Providence to Hyde Park.
I get that there's no reason to expect cost per mile to be the same for every trip - longer trips are presumably less expensive per mile to operate, and zone 1A is a special case because it is the same area that the subway covers. But if you put it all together, it's frustrating to live in zone 1, where the cost jumps so quickly over such a short distance, and I can see why some people might be tempted to drive either all the way into the city or just the short distance needed to see the huge fare reduction.
One solution would be to just make more stations zone 1A. That doesn't really solve the problem fully, though, it just moves the invisible line farther out and makes another area the unfortunate ones who live just outside of zone 1A. It seems like a more comprehensive solution would be to find a new fare structure that doesn't impose such a sudden cost increase as you move a small distance further from downtown.
Fairmount versus Roslindale Sq
By Bob P (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:57am
Fairmount is 1A 2.10
Roslindale zone 1 5.75
Which one is father away from Forest Hills? South Station?
Ever since they bumped up the fares and parking at the commuter rail, the Forest Hills lots are much more full. And right now with construction it make sit worse. No Way it should cost $182 a month to take the commuter rail from West Roxbury or Roslindale.
Fairmount is farther
By ckollett
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:20pm
According to the data on page 75 of this report, Fairmount is 8.2 miles from South Station and Roslindale Village is 6.4. The Fairmount line is a special case, though, and I'm sure there are people here who know more about that than I do.
Fairmount's fairs were reduced in late 2013
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:31pm
After a community group demanded the rates be drop because it served minority neighborhoods.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/06/24/fairm...
Fairmount Line was reduced to
By anon (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:38pm
Fairmount Line was reduced to subway fare as a trial basis to build up ridership on an underutilized line and to promote use of the new stations. It was only a matter of time before other neighborhoods would want the same fare treatment
fare treatment
By chaosjake
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 2:04pm
I see what you did there!
Wouldn't the most fair
By Ryan Meador (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:10pm
Wouldn't the most fair solution be to decide on a metric for cost and then price every station individually using that formula? I vote for "per mile". And then the pricing structure should probably be reconciled with the tolls on the pike, or if the pike is already considered fair, maybe we just use that formula for the CR.
Need to decide if CR is RT or not
By eddiil (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 12:36pm
I think the simplest thing to do is to dump the 1A zone, or at least reprice it so that it's something like $4. CR is not rapid transit, so there should be no expectation that it should be priced the same (just like how we don't expect buses and RT to have equivalent fare structures for similar distances). Many 1A rides present fare collection problems as well--travel during rush hour and it often winds up being free. Frequent boarding/alighting also increases station dwell time.
Maybe this will also motivate a push to turn Fairmont into RT-like service. That way you can call it Indigo (not CR) and charge $2.10 or something without people griping about inequity.
The whole question of how to price public transit is so fraud with competing interests (increase revenue, increase ridership, decrease traffic congestion, etc) that coming up with a self-consistent fare policy is almost impossible.
Zone 1A
By Bob P (not verified)
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 2:47pm
It is wasteful that the large parking area at Roslindale Village commuter rail is nearly empty when the lots aT Forest Hills a mile away are full at 7:30 AM. Why? Cost $182 a month an $4 a day to park at the Commuter Rail. $75 a month and $6 a day at the Hills. Simple economics
It's wasteful
By Sock_Puppet
Wed, 09/30/2015 - 3:08pm
That the parking lot is not a full-on Orange Line station.
+10000 !!!!!
By anon (not verified)
Thu, 10/01/2015 - 7:45am
+10000 !!!!!
West Roxbury managed to kill
By leviramsey (not verified)
Fri, 10/02/2015 - 12:11pm
West Roxbury managed to kill the Orange Line extension past Forest Hills, but within 25 years, we'll see the Orange Line to 128 along the Needham Line. With the level of traffic on the three tracks from Forest Hills to Back Bay between MBTA to Providence/Stoughton/Franklin, South Coast trains to Fall River/New Bedford (no matter whether anybody actually wants them or not), and Amtrak's plans for trains to New York, there's not going to be slots available for the Needham line.
Pages