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Wal-Mart in Roxbury?
By adamg on Mon, 07/11/2011 - 8:52am
The ginormous chain is eying Roxbury for its first Boston store. The mayor is against; some residents are for.
Ed. question: Does a Wal-Mart in Roxbury cancel out a Whole Foods in JP? Also, why is the Target at South Bay so much cooler than Wal-Mart in, say, Crosstown?
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Comments
No No NO NO NO!
Come on, Menino. You wanted something to rage about (see NIKE, DIRT BIKES...), this is it. THIS could be your best work at the end of your career as mayor. You could be "The Mayor Who Told Mega-Chain Wal-Mart To Suck It"! It'd be a turning point for consumers versus consumerism!
Embroil and drag them down with the BRA. Force them to have to account for their own construction without all of the darling tax breaks that they ALWAYS get when they move in. Publicly turn their lobbyists away at the door (regardless of whether you entertain other lobbyists at the same time...we'll understand!). If they deem it necessary to move into Boston Proper, do everything in your power to make it the worst idea they ever had!
South Bay Shopping Mecca
Lowes and BJs Wholesale Club are looking at a site between South Bay and Boston Street. It would consist of several large parcels that are being aggregated, including the Verizon bldg/lot and the concrete plant.
Wal-Mart in Boston =
Wal-Mart in Boston = suburbanization of the city. No thanks!
Depends on how it's built
This is supposed to be a small-format store, so it could be designed 'urbanistically', either without parking or with parking hidden in back -- if the neighborhood and the city insist on it.
small format Walmart is still big
There's no way Walmart would build a store like the Coolidge Corner Trader Joe's. A "small" Walmart is still going to be a huge monstrosity -- it just means it will be smaller than a super Walmart.
...those super-sized
...those super-sized Wal-Marts eerily remind me of the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco, TX.
I hope to never see one.
Ever in Boston. Anyone in Boston wanting a Wal-Mart shopping trip can visit Quincy.
Not a government decision
Which law abiding businesses get to open up shop here should not be a decision of government. Government can set tax policy, building codes etc. but beyond that it is not the role of government to choose where we shop. If enough people say "I'm not going to Wal Mart" they will close and move elsewhere. If our government decides to keep out ALL big box stores like some areas (Vermont?) - that's one thing. But you can't let HD, Lowe's, Target, Best Buy etc. operate under one set of laws and force Wal Mart to obey a whole different set of rules.
Bubble bursting
Sorry, but Vermont is exactly the WRONG example to be using here.
They let in Wal-Mart...*invited* them (of course, they were lobbied heavily by their new guests to be inviting to them). Wally setup normal "Wal-Marts" in town after town...with help from Vermont in the form of tax breaks as trade-off for all the "new jobs". Workers weren't paid enough to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart and jobs weren't created so much as siphoned into the Wal-Mart. Little stores, quintessential Vermont, shut down around these warehouse-sized stores. However, something Vermont didn't calculate on when it generously gave Wal-Mart tax breaks: all the revenue goes to the home office in Arkansas!
Then, Wally had a new idea. Mega-Wal-Marts! But you only need ONE Mega-Wal-Mart where there were already 2-3 "normal" Wal-Marts...so what happened to the towns that tripped over themselves to bring in one of the original Wal-Marts in Vermont? They lost everything. The new Mega-Wal-Mart opened up down the road in the next town over. The "normal" Wal-Mart closed because it was overlapping with the new Mega-Wally's footprint (goodbye, extra jobs!) and the "normal" Wally's lot was designed for such a huge store that NOBODY wants/can afford to move into it...so now it's a blighted parking lot. And *still* the revenue funnels to Arkansas...but just from 1 store that left 2-3 gaping holes where the "normal" ones nearby used to be.
With a Wal-Mart in Quincy, Avon, Weymouth, and Walpole...say they open one in Roxbury...seems to me it'd only be a matter of time before they assume a Mega-Wally would be the perfect fit for Dedham or North Randolph...then they could compress and shutter everything in a 10 mile radius. It's what they do.
Where in VT did that happen?
I'm curious, where did this happen? I did a few quick searches and didn't find anything. The battles in VT with Walmart are legendary, but I didn't know about the second wave of stores. Where did this happen?
Thanks.
Mea culpa
I was conflating a few studies I'd read through previously in my haste to post today. Because of the trouble in Vermont, they built Wal-Marts in NH to draw customers across the border. They then are doing the compression to supercenters in New Hampshire (like in Derry) in the same manner that they've done in Iowa, Texas, and other places where the end result is vacant retail space that nobody else can move into due to the size/cost.
So, the impact that this move makes comes from studies done in Texas and Iowa. The evidence that they're doing it up here is in New Hampshire, not Vermont (VT has only 4 of the "normal" Wal-Marts at this time).
Again, sorry for the conflation.
Appreciate the honesty
Thanks. There's a lot of Walmart stuff going on, gets a bit confusing.
The only reason I asked was because I'm in VT fairly often, mostly in the winter, and really hadn't heard of anything like you had described.
No, no, Kaz, that's not what
No, no, Kaz, that's not what happened. I grew up in Vermont during this clusterfuck and the blame lies with anti-Wal-Mart advocates.
What happened is that Wal-Mart wanted to move into closed retail spaces in Vermont, since new construction in Vermont is pretty difficult compared to other states. For example, the town I lived in, Brattleboro, had an Ames close down on the shopping drag, far, far away from the downtown. Wal-Mart wanted to move in. They didn't even want to build a bigger building (in fact, they couldn't), just occupy the space.
Then the anti-Wal-Mart crowd showed up to whine about Wal-Mart either A) being a big nasty corporation (not that I'm arguing Wal-Mart is anything other than pure evil) or B) it spoiling their view because poor people wanted to buy things.
So, Wal-Mart instead moved into a space across the river from downtown. New Hampshire happily let them dynamite the side of a mountain to put it in, it put massive amounts of stress on infrastructure not prepared to handle it, and the town and state lost enormous amounts of tax revenue.
Oh, and that Ames? It stayed vacant for years. Then it became a Kohl's. VICTORY FOR SMALL BUSINESS! A year later, Bennington told the whiners to shut up and let Wal-Mart build a store in a strip mall.
In other words, what's happening in New Hampshire would never have happened if it hadn't been for anti-Wal-Mart advocates. So, something to consider.
Did you say Zoning?
WalMart met its match when it couldn't cow Multnomah County and the State of Oregon into "accepting" a store that was vastly beyond what the space they desired was zoned for.
They tried to buy their way in, and were told the proposal didn't fit the zoning. They then played the "NIMBYs just picking on poor ol' WalMart" card and got literally laughed out of court. This was no Whose Foods situation. Seems the zoning had been in place for several decades and other proposed stores (including a MegaKMart)had been turned down for that location as non-conforming.
So WalMart came up with a new "urban" smaller store concept to conform with the zoning, and now is trying that model in other locations.
That's a perfect example
The community sets the standards - and the store is compelled by the courts and otherwise to comply (and good for them for sticking to their policies).
The mayor's problem is that he thinks he somehow has the power to say Target=good/Walmart=Bad.
It's not his call.
more likely he's negotiating
more likely he's negotiating a bigger buy from walmart
Target . . .
. . . is at South Bay. I go there to get stuff once in while. A Walmart might not be a fit for Boston or that neighborhood- but- it wouldn't distress me particularly if one were to open up somewhere appropriate in town.
Anyone from the neighborhood out there?
I would like to hear the opinion of some of the folks living in close proximity to the proposed site(s). I have a feeling that the rage so eloquently expressed above might not be shared by a good number of the folks who would be most directly affected.
On a separate note, if the store is well located, I'm not so sure that you would need (or want) the acres of parking that usually accompany these behemoths. I also don't think that a Wal-Mart would worsen the violence plaguing some parts of those neighborhoods.
However, I don't think that there is any real chance of this happening. Honestly, what do you think the people at headquarters in Arkansas are going to think when they talk to the Whole Foods people (and they will)? Building a Wal-Mart in Boston would make whatever they went through in Vermont seem trivial.
Also, may I ask what the hell Mr. Small is talking about with the "settle for just any jobs" comment? What kind of jobs is he looking for? I imagine that there are a fair number of folks who would be happy to take any reasonable job they could get just now. However, I suppose it is possible that there is some huge untapped pool of supremely skilled workers for whom working at Wal-mart would be a huge step backwards.
Potential Neighbor for local development
I live about 2-3 blocks from the proposed site and I would not like to see WalMart built. I want to see the vacant parcels along Melnea Cass redeveloped but it should not look or feel like a suburban strip mall. I'm fine with Target, Best Buy and others at South Bay Mall (mall being the key word). I also agree with Horace that the community needs jobs that provide a living wage and offer quality health care. Most of WalMart's jobs do not provide such benefits. I also think a Walmart will negatively impact some of the local Dudley businesses such as the urban gardening store, and the recently opened Dudley Department store and Blanka's gift and flower shop.
Should Walmart be able to
Should Walmart be able to open in Roxbury?
See 'Whole Foods, Jamaica Plain.'
Come on, you free marketers - I know you're out there. You came out of the woodwork for WF.
I'm with you
Governments job is to foster a fair business environment, while keeping citizens best interests in mind.
There there to regulate, not central plan. I'm for them as long as they play by the rules, and get no state preferences, kickbacks, or subsidies (direct or indirect).
If you can't tell the difference between WF and WM
Then you have no business in the conversation.
Whole Foods buys much of its fresh stock locally (Wal-Mart doesn't buy anything locally...that's its whole point). Whole Foods pays its employees better than competitors and let me know when Wal-Mart has a benefits page for employees that looks anything like this one. Whole Foods isn't going to wipe out the surrounding retail by moving in (Wal-Mart always does).
Whole Foods is socially beneficial, environmentally beneficial, and has few downsides compared to Wal-Mart's effect on its surroundings when it moves in.
Older but interesting article on Walmart in Ithaca, NY from 1994
http://www.ithacahours.com/archive/9406.html
Not to mention
that Walmart also faced the largest sex discrimination lawsuit in our nation's history, until the Supreme Court tossed it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/business/21bizco...
While the manager of Whole Foods's entire North Atlantic region is a woman who has worked her way up the ranks after starting out working part-time at the salad bar.
Shopping at Walmart is great for industry in China. Shopping at Whole Foods isn't perfect, but it sure does a lot more to create jobs at decent wages and benefits and support our local economy.
Wal-mart is just like every
Wal-mart is just like every other big box retailer, most of whom already have stores in Boston. I see no reason to discriminate against one particular business when they have broken no laws and their business practices are no different than businesses already present in Boston.
Differences in business practices are irrelevant
It's a commercial enterprise and if they meet the zoning requirements, permits, etc. they should be able to open a store. They are not in the business of opening stores that will fail, so if they feel the local demographic will not shop or work there, they will not open the store. Clearly (just like WF) their market research determined there is a reasonable expectation of operating a profitable store in that location. If people boycott it and it loses money, they will close it. Wanna create a "Whose Mart" project to oppose it? Go for it. Expecting the government to pick and choose who is a "good fit" is wrong even when it's Wal-Mart.
Not true
No, they're just in the business of opening stores that eat a loss that they find sustainable due to their success elsewhere until all of the other businesses fold up because they can't compete pricewise...then they raise their prices back to profitable and you have little to no choice except to shop there anyways.
...so, actually, in a big way, they *are* in the business of opening stores that will fail...because they INTEND them to fail initially.
Also, one of the reasons it is so easy for them to open a ton of stores, then later close the less valuable ones (see Texas) is that they engineer sweetheart deals with the cities and states that they want to open in. Otherwise, my guess is that they would find much less of a case for opening there. Wal-Mart doesn't need to do consumer testing to decide if they want to open or not. Their pricing scheme and predatory tactics guarantee them a customer base anywhere they go. The only question for Wal-Mart is how cheaply they can open, how little they can pay the city/state, and how easily they can escape their deal when it becomes "better" for them to consolidate into supercenters instead of tons of single stores.
So what exactly are the
So what exactly are the "sweetheart deals" that Wal-Mart will get in Boston?
Why have they not done this at any other location in Massachusett?
We musta said the magic word!
Did you guys know that if you say "Wal-Mart" into a mirror three times, Rich appears?
I don't know, Rich. Why don't you tell the rest of us what kind of sweetheart deals you're trying to help Wal-Mart get in Boston. I mean it's not like the city or state has ever made dumb deals with industries before...
Before 2008, Wal-Mart was using an REIT to game the MA state tax laws to shuffle its profits out of the state without having them taxed as sales. They spent over $200k in lobbyists in 2008 to keep Deval from pushing through a means to closing that tax dodge...and fortunately they ended up losing. That worked for them for EVERY location in the state. They also push about 40% of their workforce onto the state subsidized healthcare rosters saving millions for them...but costing millions for us all. Yay, it's just as good as any subsidy!
Ad hominem attacks are the
Ad hominem attacks are the surest way to sink your credibility, Kaz.
Answer the questions. What "sweetheart deals" is Wal-mart trying to get? Why have they not closed any stores in Massachusetts?
If Wal-mart has broken any laws, prove it.
I'm not hungry...
...so stop putting words in my mouth.
What ad hominem? Reminding everyone that you only have an opinion on UHub when Wal-Mart is named and that your sole opinion is that Wal-Mart can do no wrong (even when provided evidence to the contrary)...that's not ad hominem...unless you subconsciously think that defending Wal-Mart is a disparaging trait, which is your hangup then, not mine.
Do I look like Wal-Mart lobbyists are knocking on my door? How would I know what deals they want from the city/state to open in Roxbury? I only stated that this is their modus operandi. Are you claiming they *don't* seek sweetheart deals to open stores anywhere?
Who said they were closing stores in MA?
Who said Wal-Mart broke any laws?
How do you know what my
How do you know what my opinion is?
I'll tell you what my opinion is... as long as Wal-mart follows the rules and laws that exist, neither you nor the mayor have any right to prevent any business or individual to start a business or shop where they want.
I'm sorry you have a problem with people making choices for themselves.
What else do you want to decide for all of us?
Cite your assertions please.
Cite your assertions please. If it was that easy, every big box chain would use that approach.
Sounds like we agree that government should be 100% neutral. Then there would be no "sweetheart deals". The idea that they do no market research before opening a store is laughable.
You stated:
"The only question for Wal-Mart is how cheaply they can open, how little they can pay the city/state, and how easily they can escape their deal when it becomes "better" for them..."
That's business 101 in a nutshell. Every company of every size tries to minimize their tax burden, operate at the lowest overhead and structure contracts to their advantage. That's hardly exclusive to Wal-Mart.
So which is it?
Either what I've described is so commonplace that it needs no citation or it's so radical that it's not business 101. You can't have my cake and eat it too.
You are good at dodging.
Citation for these assertions:
"No, they're just in the business of opening stores that eat a loss that they find sustainable due to their success elsewhere until all of the other businesses fold up because they can't compete pricewise...then they raise their prices back to profitable and you have little to no choice except to shop there anyways."
"Wal-Mart doesn't need to do consumer testing to decide if they want to open or not."
While the first comment may have some merit, the second is complete BS.
Don't worry yourself with it though. I'm done listening to your bleating on this subject.
That's a shame
If Wal-Mart did consumer testing or any research, then why would it open stores so close to each other that they cannibalize up to 20% of each others' business...then close one of the 2 later?
From Minnesota:
Who needs to test the market when the saturation strategy is to open everywhere and just close some later when they fail? Why do you think there are over 200 dead Wal-Marts across the country? Are they that bad at testing the markets?
Also
According to articles, when Walmart starts out with a new store, they have all sorts of sales and low prices. While they operate this way at a loss, competing stores go out of business. Then Walmart can change their prices again to whatever they want.
Airlines (and many other
Airlines (and many other businesses) do that all the time when they enter new markets. It's a way of getting attention and new business. Do you think it's wrong in those cases as well?
It could be.
I'm kind of playing devils advocate, but there is a reason why we have anti-trust laws here in the US. I'm not saying Walmart breaks the law, but they come close to that line when you can move prices around in a market that you would have the majority of the business in.
Right
Because if there's one thing Wal-Mart doesn't have is enough attention in new markets...
The reasoning for both airlines and Wal-Mart to have similar pricing strategies does not have to be the same for them both to decide to do it.
Witch doctors kill chickens to talk to the spirit world. Perdue kills chickens. Therefore, Perdue must do it in order to talk to the spirit world too!
Kaz, Whole Foods is a large
Kaz, Whole Foods is a large retail chain. You don't become a large retail chain without becoming an enormous asshole. Why, here's the CEO opposing Obamacare:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2009/08/th...
Here's Whole Foods shutting down a local organic store:
http://prettysmartrawfoodideas.wordpress.com/2010/...
Here's Whole Foods possibly lying about its environmental record:
http://news.worldwild.org/stop-whole-foods-greenwa...
Also, they're not unionized, and having been friends with Whole Foods employees before, they're pretty adamantly anti-union.
Granted, the whole JP controversy has nothing to do with any of this; my point is that your problem is not with Wal-Mart, but with capitalism and how it interacts with human nature.
Good post, one small typo...
fyp
Could care less.
We have Targets, Best Buy, Whole Foods, 7/11's, Tedeski's (bought up about every other market that isn't 7/11 a few years ago), Stop and Shops, ect.
Make sure they comply with zoning, pressure them to make heavy contributions to local community groups and charities, and make sure they're following proper Massachusetts wage and work laws.
Walmart typically stays away from cities, because they need to pay their workers more, so pay like the other places shouldn't be a huge problem. They won't find workers close by otherwise.
And lets face it, they sell the same cheap Chinese crap that Target does.
The lack of grocery and mart stores in Boston, at respectable distances, is a problem that needs a solution. I cringe every time I see poorer people buying the same sort of crap products marked up 300% at a CVS because it's the only store within distance. That's real money they could use.
/progressive card carrier
I feel sorry for you.
You could care less? That's awesome. Love people who don't care, don't bother to educate themselves, don't get involved, etc., etc. You must be really proud of yourself.
rephrased
Could care less about one Walmart coming to a city of 500,000 residents.
There's bigger fish to fry, and better fights worth having. Hippies need to learn to pick and choose their battles better.
'it's the economy, stupid'
Wal-Mart is not good for the local economy. Get your head out of the sand.
Walmart's low prices creates
Walmart's low prices creates a workforce utterly dependent on Walmart's low prices.
Big box stores can actually improve business at "Mom & Pops"
FWIW, I know a man who owns a suburban "Mom and Pop" hardware store. When a Home Depot was proposed about a half mile away, he fought vehemently against it, to the point of permanently straining friendships with some local officials who voted to approve it. Home Depot forced the small hardware store owner to sharpen his pencil, develop creative marketing and improve customer service. Almost 20 years later, the Mom and Pop store is busier than ever with many customers who prefer to spend a small percentage more for personalized service and a parking lot that allows you to be in the store in ten seconds instead of ten minutes. The man is now the first person to admit that Home Depot is the best thing that ever happened to his store. As the saying goes, "competition is the life of trade."
How about a link?
All we have is a good story, which doesn't even have anything to do with Wal-Mart. Home Depot isn't the one being looked at here.
Walmart in Roxbury
As a resident of the city Roxbury for some fifty years now I think the residents should have a say in the welcoming or denying a Wal-Mart in our community.
The question was asked why is Target accepted and Wal-Mart not. In my opinion Target was not welcomed by all. Target coming into the neighborhood was on the sneak tip. What I mean is 95% of the peopell in the area found out that Target was opening once the deal was final so to speak.
May residents of Dorchester, Roxbury, Mattapan and South Boston would if asked perfer a Wal-mart over a Target. Why? I am glad you asked. Target is ridiculously expensive. Targets clothing prices if compared are over 50% more in pricing then Wal-Mart.
Most families in the inner city are affected by the economy; loss of jobs. Running through savings to survive, going in debt, no job opportunities. The last thing one needs in a business in the community that makes it impossible to shop due to MOTE THEN NORMAL PRICES.
Is a Wal-Mart needed yes, why? I'm glad you asked. Not only will there be employment opportunities whether they carry benefits or not; very low income families will be able to afford the service offered by Wal-Mart. Not just the clothing, pampers, coats and shoes; families will be able to shop with ease not worrying about astronomical prices of Target and Stop and Shop.
Yes I do agree, several Mom and Pop shops will be affected; but honestly speaking how many of those shops still exist and what group of people are still benefiting from them.
The way I see it there are more Asian shops now set up in a community that should be given an opportunity for its small business minded residents to be given a chance. The Asian businesses that have set up in the city of Rebury, Dorchester and Mattapan should be put out of Business. Honestly, what are these businesses contributing to the community? With all the Asian nail shops, clothing and footwear shops around how are the residents benefiting? They sure don't employ residents and if they do it to make the consumer feel comfortable enough to shop with them, that’s their motive and deception to pull the community in to conduct business with them. Not only that; whenever you visit an Asian store in these community they ALWAYS post all their merchandise as on SALE. This information is false. All the items in these stores are sold on sale at the regular price to keep the customer from making a return that would allow them to receive cash back. By placing everything on sale in these stores at what is the regular price gives the business owner the upper hand by offering a store credit only, keeping the money flowing through their stores and at the same time ripping the consumer off from their legal right -to make a cash return with-in 7-14 days
Everyone is so concerned about the impact Wal-Mart might have on the community; who is investigating the businesses that already exist and are a secret threat? These stores need to be forced out of business. They are only in it for themselves not looking to help the community at large but to drain them dry while disrespecting it consumers at the same time.
I VOTE FOR WAL-MART. I BELIEVE WAL-MART COMING INTO THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE WILL BRING MORE OPPORTUNITIES THEN THE OPPORTUNITIES NOW THAT ALREADY EXISIT BUT ARE NOT AVAILIBLE.
The Asian businesses that
Nice nails?
All opportunities are not equal
So...you have a problem with Asians...got it.
Another reason to not support Walmart
http://news.yahoo.com/wal-mart-trims-certain-emplo...