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So the Patriots really were playing small ball
By adamg on Wed, 01/21/2015 - 7:32am
Alec Shane, for one, is deflated by the news:
There's really no way around it: this absolutely sucks. What should be a time for celebrating, enjoying the moment, and getting excited for the Super Bowl is now going to be two straight weeks of finger pointing, expressing disgust, and exclaiming complete outrage.
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Comments
Oh and there was a State of
Oh and there was a State of the Union address as well.
People, I am not a snob. I have my share of trivial distractions, some of them ridiculous. But that's what the NFL is, right? A ridiculous trivial distraction? So if it wasn't flaccid footballs it would be something else equally meaningless. And we'd all insist that Belichick is a demigod and that anyone that says otherwise is a pussy.
OK I need more coffee.
Some people are clever polymaths
We have many interests and can keep track of politics and the Patriots at the same time. Some of us even have enough brainpower left over for books, music, food, family and many other things.
Sorry if our fun is bothering you.
Speak for yourself
I've been so caught up in deflategate that until you wrote this, I had forgotten to eat since Monday.
I gotta get something to eat. And I should probably go potty, too.
I am all for fun Nancy. *Fun*
I am all for fun Nancy. *Fun* is Olympic beach volleyball on Boston Common.
Gagging
And I don't much love the Common.
I suppose they'd have to level the hill to build the stadium, but I'm sure we'd all be happy to pay to redo it the following week.
You need more something, that
You need more something, that's for sure. I don't think coffee is it, however.
Here is some Patriots REALITY for you.
- Patriots (with the fully inflated balls) outscore the Colts 28-0 in the second half.
- How is it possible that for an entire half, the NFL officials, who handle the ball on everyplay couldn’t feel that it was 16% under-inflated?
- There is no proof the Patriots intentionally deflated the balls.
- And even if they did have proof the Pats will be subject to a $25,000 fine, which is equivalent to the fine you have to pay for WEARING THE WRONG COLORED CLEATS.
http://musketfire.com/2015/01/21/new-england-patriots-making-sense-defla...
Penalty could be more severe
I believe the way the rule is worded the $25K fine is the minimum, and it is vague enough that the league can basically impose whatever penalty they see fit. There is enough public outcry on this, and Goodell has had enough bad PR this year, that I think he will levy a harsher fine and take away a draft pick (probably a 6th or 7th rounder). On this one I don't think he needs to wait for proof, the public will support as harsh a penalty as he gives out, and public perception is really all the league cares about.
Heh
How do we know this is true
ESPN is citing "sources" but the league is saying this:
"We are not commenting at this time," said Greg Aiello, the NFL's senior vice president of communications.
Troy Vincent, the league's senior executive vice president of football operations, told The Associated Press late Tuesday in response to this report that the "investigation is currently underway and we're still awaiting findings.'' He told ProFootballTalk.com earlier Tuesday that the NFL expected to wrap up its investigation in "two or three days."
Anyone in journalism that can clarify who are these "sources" we always hear about and why would the NFL, who I'm sure want to tightly control this message, would deliberately leak this info (can't imagine this was an accident -or that there are dozens of people that know about this that would be in a position to speak to the press).
I'm not really doubting it's true - just trying to understand the media game around it a little better.
As a fan though - I would love it if ESPN's sources turn out to be complete bunk.
Query
If the Patriots inflate the balls to the lowest allowed pressure before the game, would being used (especially in cold weather) cause them to dip below the original pressure level duringg the course of the game? If so, not necessarily any "cheating" at all. If the balls were SO deflated tha this innocent explanation is not feasible, then how did the referees never notice this?
Except it wasn't cold Sunday
It was up around 50.
It was in the 50s inside
It was in the 50s inside Gillette, the outside ambient temperature was much lower, and the humidity was all over the place throughout the day.
Yes but
The weather changed significantly during the day. The pressure dropped all day. And, yeah, I'm confused as to how one defensive player who rarely touches the ball noticed, while the referees, who touch the ball every play, did not.
Were all the balls deflated, or just this one?
atmospheric pressure
Out of curiosity, I looked up the barometer readings for game day at Norwood airport. From that morning until the end of the game pressure dropped by the equivalent of 0.5 pounds per square inch. That means the game balls that evening would have measured 0.5lbs less inflated than in the morning (measuring the pressure in a ball is *always* relative to the outside atmosphere)
The balls are normally required to be inflated within a range that is 1psi wide. So if they were inflated that morning to a value toward the low end of 'allowed', by evening they would have been ~1.5lbs under the maximum allowed inflation...pretty close to the '2 lbs' number that's floating around.
i think you got it backwards
Balls inflated at the higher (morning) pressure would measure *more* inflated relative to the lower evening pressure.
crap, you're right
must *finish* cup of coffee before pedantic posting...
And balls inflated in a
And balls inflated in a warmer environment (indoors) would have lower pressure when taken into a colder environment. Try it with a mylar balloon sometime. It's quite noticeable, and it doesn't have to be a very cold day.
Inside vs. Outside
If a ball is inflated, and tested, in a room at 70 degrees, then the same ball is taken outdoors in 40 or 50 degrees, that ball will show less psi (pounds per square inch) when tested outside after a couple of hours exposure. The same principle applies to your car tires, for instance, and can be a problem in handling.
Also, in order for the testing to be accurate, the second test needs to have been done in the same conditions as the first. Was this the case? I don't know. Does anyone here know? If so, speak to us. Otherwise, speculation is fairly useless at this point.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
See my comment below
But they test balls after the game, inside, and by weighing them, which is independent of any atmospheric effects.
Story seems
to imply they tested PSI, but yes weighing them solves all problems. Which is weird that the rules state PSI and not weight, since PSI is a relative measurement.
Weighing the balls isn't worth shit
Please consider the following:
The average football weighs about 410 grams.
There is 9-10 grams of air in a properly inflated ball.
There is about 1-2 grams less air in a ball with only 12 psi pressure.
Now does anyone think that weighing the ball will be able to discern the difference between a properly inflated ball and an improperly inflated ball. Not on your life.....
Add in that any group of footballs probably varies in weight more than the weight of the air inside of one. And a football sitting out in the rain has probably absorbed more water than the 1-2 gram difference that they are supposedly looking for.
Anyone trying to discern the difference between a properly inflated ball and an improperly inflated ball using gravimetric techniques is full of crap.
Now consider trying to measure the pressure in the ball by sticking a needle guage into it. How much air is released as the needle guage is inserted?
Also, filling a ball to the proper pressure in a heated room (70 F) and then letting them sit outside in the cold (40 F), the balls are going to lose pressure, about 2 psi.
Whatever the NFL decides to do, I hope that they've got their act together on their testing methods. So far, my confidence in their testing methodology is not warranted.
You should send them a
You should send them a strongly worded letter.
I have a scale in my kitchen that is accurate to 10 mg. Do you not think that is accurate enough? If 31 other teams can manage to properly inflate the balls to league standards, do you really think there is something so special about your precious air in Foxboro that makes the balls leak air, or deflate when an official touches them?
Gimme a break.
What are you cooking in your
What are you cooking in your kitchen that you need a scale accurate to 10mg? And when you say "accurate", don't you really mean "precise"?
It's precise to 1mg, but only
It's precise to 1mg, but only accurate to 10, if that answers your question.
thank you
I just saw some weather guy on Twitter talk about how the barometric pressure dropped all day and this could cause the balls to deflate. (see pic)
Science to the rescue
As barometric outside the ball decreases, pressure inside the ball would increase. Completely irrelevant, however, because they test the balls by weighing them, since the mass on a properly inflated ball is known, and would be 100% independent of atmospheric conditions that affect the pv=nrt relationship.
Edit: HOW THE HELL COULD A METEOROLOGIST NOT KNOW THIS?!
Edit2: TWEET WASNT FROM THE WEATHER GUY IT WAS TO THE WEATHER GUY, AND I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND HOW TWITTER USERS MIGHT BE DUMB.
Yes, there's shrinkage
Skip to 2:28. Adam's code doesn't allow for the timestamp start tag.
http://youtu.be/8DoARSlv-HU?t=2m28s
I'm sure they don't test
I'm sure they don't test every ball to this degree after a game. My bicycle tires lose a couple PSI when I'm not riding and I'm sure the balls too. There's gotta be science to back this crap up, especially with the weather fluctuation in Foxboro.
Yeah. No.
Not by the alleged two pounds worth.
Two pounds or PSI? You can
Two pounds or PSI? You can lose up to 10 psi simply in the time you eject an inflator
Bikes, not footballs
Footballs should be 12.5-13.5 PSI. That's pretty low pressure compared to a 80-120 PSI bike tire which also won't lose 10 PSI unless you remove the inflator very slowly.
The weather argument doesn't make sense from a physics sense unless someone was trying to inflate in such a way that the pressure during the game would be lower.
2 PSI can still escape quite
2 PSI can still escape quite quickly regardless
Reports also say
that Belichick had the equipment manager fired because he didn't deflate all of the balls.
Sigh.
I think the disappointment for many comes from those who put teams, like the Pats, on a very high "we-can-do-no wrong" pedestal. When one does this, one will get burned almost every time.
These are human beings, after all, with human weaknesses. To place them in the realm beyond all wrong is just foolish. It is truly unfortunate, however. IF the investigation finds that the allegations are true, the Pats should be ashamed of themselves. Kids look up to those players and they have showed them that cheating is an acceptable way of giving your team an advantage (especially during a game that will decide whether your team gets to the Super Bowl.)
Now, aside from that, yes, the Colts played poorly and, most likely, the Pats would of beat them anyway. But this does not mean that the alleged deflated ball issue should be dismissed. Cheating is cheating. And there is no excuse.
But, cripes, are the Pats so unsure of themselves that they have to take a cheap, cheating route?
But, cripes, are you such an
But, cripes, are you such an insecure human being that you haven't stopped beating your wife yet?
Actually,
I don't swing that way (and there is nothing wrong with it) but if I did, I would never beat my wife.
No..
like some good football fans, maybe he waits until Super Bowl Sunday to beat his wife.
Am I missing something here?
Am I missing something here? Does each team have separate footballs? Or do they both use the same ones? If they both use the same ones, was there an advantage?
Yes
There are several sets of footballs:
The home team supplies 12 balls - and I think 12 "reserve" balls (and except for dimensions and PSI, they are treated to the preferences of the quarterback - for example - roughing up the surface - although this has to happen before testing)
The visiting team supplies 12 balls - and they can use those when on offense and again - can be "treated" to the QB's specs.
There are 12 "neutral" balls that only the refs touch for the kicking game which is where the inflation level can most affect performance.
48 footballs for one game?!?
But hey - it's a private company, so I guess it's OK if they waste the money that their fans provided through outrageous ticket prices, ludicrous concession prices, and the like.
Move to Green Bay and you
Move to Green Bay and you might have a say
That's actually not very many
How many balls do you think they have at a baseball game?
baseballs
Lots, but that's because baseballs are often batted (or, occasionally, mis-thrown) into the stands.
I think they only use a
I think they only use a baseball for maybe 5 pitches a game? That's a lotta baseballs.
Baseballs
Something like a hundred for a game. Each one, hand rubbed with mud from a very specific point in a river in Pennsyltuckyginia somewhere.
I had no idea they used more than one football at all
How do the officials keep track of which footballs belongs to which team (or to no team), and when to change footballs? Are they somehow marked?
If there are special footballs for "the kicking game", what happens when there's a fake punt or a fake field goal attempt, or when a team decides to go for a two-point conversion even though lined up for a kick?
Are footballs swapped after an unplanned turnover (interception or fumble) ?
The balls are marked
The balls are marked with the teams' logo. They are swapped out by the refs at any given change of possession between plays. If a team decides to run a fake kick, they must run the play with a kicking ball (this generally doesn't matter because the team's offensive balls are tailored to its quarterback, who will probably not be involved in the fake).
This is also why, if you go to a game and somehow catch a ball that goes into the stands, the security will come by and make you give it back (because there is a limited supply of custom-tailored balls).
And I doubt any of these go to waste
They probably get signed and sold after the game - sole exception may be the player that gets a "game" ball - which may have only been used in fewer than a dozen plays.
Colts playing with Patriots balls?
1.) Were the Colts playing with the patriots' balls?
2.) In light of his terrible performance, does prefer playing with heavier balls?
Colts played with Colts balls
Except for one play, when a Colts linebacker managed to get his hands on a Patriots ball by intercepting Tom Brady.
Proves nothing
What prof is there that the official checked the balls before the game? Did he make any adjustments if he did check them?
What about the balls used by the Colts? Have they been tested?
If you really believe
the 'deflated footballs' (please stop insulting us and the memory of Richard Nixon by calling this "scandal' 'Deflate-gate') had such an effect on the outcome of the game, then there's a logical solution.
Have the Colts and the Patriots replay the game.
Oh wait - much easier for the league to extort an idiotic fine in enforcement of an idiotic rule that had no bearing on the game.
I do not think it's possible to insult the memory
of Richard Nixon. The "-gate" thing is lame, but it's not because that crook deserves respect.
Did they also check the Colts' balls?
Seems irresponsible to check only one team's footballs. If they checked both teams, they'd have some evidence as to whether it happened naturally plus whether it affected the levelness of the playing field.
If the Colts' D is any
If the Colts' D is any indicator, their balls weren't in the game at all.
There's also a cynical (or if you prefer, tinfoil-hat)
explanation: that the league cooked this up -- not necessarily through falsification, but via enforcement of a rule that nobody normally cares about -- because the "scandal" generates controversy and conversation and coverage, which help to boost ratings. A great villain is key to any good action story, and this plays into a long-running flyover-country narrative of the Pats as despicable cheaters. It's very cheap advertising, a great marketing gimmick.
A bit of in-game regular-season commentary from Phill Simms resurfaced recently, in which he said that cheating on football pressure is pretty common. He cited the fact that Aaron Rodgers likes overinflation: he has giant hands and prefers the grip he can get on a pumped-up football.
Deflated-football cookies at local coffee place
Boston Common Coffee on Canal Street.
eww...
...turds. with seagull shit on 'em.
Hypocritical outrage only if it's the Pats
Stealing signals?
According to Bill Cowher a year ago, "everyone did it". He said paid 2 guys to do it, Belichick used one guy with a camera, in the wrong part of the field, because the rules ALLOW you to film the signals if you are in the coaches box in the stands. The league knew everyone was doing it and didn't enforce the rule until Mangini went to the Jets and squeeled like a a little baby.
Altering footballs?
In the past 24 hours, we learned that Aaron Rogers overinflated his balls (yeah, I know) as much as he can get away with.
Today we also learned that Tampa Bay altered the footballs in the Super Bowl , and WON.
Next, we will learn that some pitchers in baseball scuff the ball and use spit and Vaseline (yeah, I know) on their balls.
Hi. Just suspend in Bill we
Hi. Just suspend in Bill we trust for the Super Bowl and Mr. Kraft should fire him after the game. Enough of him playing games with Boston Sports.
English not your first
English not your first language, then?
Balls.
Between Joni Ernst, Holly Fisher, and the Patriots, I have never had the word "balls" pop up in my social media so often in one week.
Could the NFL order the Patriots game forfeited?
.... which would send the Colts to the Super Bowl instead? (Where they would get massacred by the Seahawks)
Hahahaha
In short, No.
If only because of the reason that Kraft is one of the big owners with a lot of sway.
No
The Patriots had their greatest scoring success AFTER the suspect balls were removed. In addition, they still gained much of their advantage by running the ball, not passing. In short, the Patriots could have been playing with a Frisbee and the Colts still would have lost that game. There is no way to justify a forfeit.
In addition, tickets and travel plans have been sold, amounting to millions and millions of dollars. The NFL cannot change the match-up without completely disrupting the cash flow. Above all else, they certainly won't do that.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Repeat Measures
The Pats gave Indy the exact same pounding that they gave Indy multiple times, in the exact same measure. Maybe I should calculate the correlations between the scores? Those would be exceptionally high.
That ain't the Pats having flat balls ...
http://www.benstonium.com/videos.php
This was not necessary
The worst part of this whole story is that the Pats did not have to cheat to win. They would have crushed the Colts without any ball funny-business.
Honestly
I'm thinking this is another example of a rule being more of a guideline until an enterprising flyover country journalist decided to whip up a click-shit-storm. Cue the faux outrage.
Allowing QB's to scuff balls has been in since 2006, the balls were most certainty certified by the refs for play (guess they're looking into tampering after that), and there's already been multiple people coming out and saying yeah "we did stuff like that too" (see Bucks / Rogers).
Not saying it's not wrong, but it appears to me it's once again a case of things that go on that no one talks about because it really doesn't effect the game in any meaningful sense. Until it's the Patriots, taking away the focus from real football teams.
But it makes a hell of a controversy when put under a magnifying glass and a strict reading of the rules.
An action is either wrong
or it is right, whether or not said action effects a game in any meaningful sense, no?
I mean rules are the rules, right? So now we bend it a bit to call rules, guidelines?
I am amazed how some folks are employing every means possible to make it appear that this is really no big deal. Heck, everyone does it so it must be ok.
No faux outrage here; heck I like the Pats as much as the next guy/gal. But if they or any other team is caught cheating, they should be penalized.
How about this
It sounds to me like it could be that the rules are physically impossible. Put less air in it in the summer, and it won't weigh enough but will make the pressure range. Put more air in it when it is cold and it will weigh too much while making the pressure range.
You cannot specify both the weight of the ball and the psi for a fixed volume, over the wide range of conditions from Texas in August to Green Bay in January.
That violates the well established laws of nature.
"Cheated"?
You have no evidence that they cheated at all. Until there's evidence that the balls lost pressure through an act of the Patriots staff, you have no evidence.
Logical Fallacies of Relevance, Ambiguity, Presumption
Logical Fallacies of
Relevance
Ambiguity
Presumption
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
Remember when....
...the Pats were the ones that seemed innocent and the Raiders (Stabler and all) were the bad guys?
my how times change.....and it comes with the territory of being an elite team.
soon, in the future, the Seahawks will be under the microscope too for an infraction as well.
Is it worth it to be a dynasty?
Stay out West, interloper
I would say that the Raiders were never quite seen as bad guys. It wasn't their fault the refs blew the call.
Now, how does the rest of the nation handle the fact that the Pats did better after the refs were told about the possibility of underinflated balls than they did while they "cheated." Of course, the underinflated balls also accounts for the horrible offensive display by Andrew Luck, no?
Also, going by the same Raiders logic, doesn't that mean that the Seahawks have also been the bad guys after the zebras blew that game against the Packers a few seasons ago?
History Needed
I believe Swirly can certainly speak for herself, but I'll help a bit.
She's referencing the Raiders historically, from the 60's onward, not just the Tuck Rule game (or Snow Game, depending upon what side you rooted for.) The Raiders were consistently the most penalized team in the AFL, always regarded as the dirtiest, always suspected of some sort of nefarious plan. Al Davis's "Just Win, Baby" was easily the equivalent of Belichik's modern mantra of "Do Your Job". Of course, around these parts they were vilified for specific reasons - Daryl Stingley's paralysis, the loss in the playoffs on a suspect holding penalty on Sugar Bear Hamilton, and the fact that they were able resurrect Jim Plunkett (a former Patriot) and win the Super Bowl with him at the helm.
Anyway, I think the point is they were hated by most of the rest of the league.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Oh, okay
I was thinking that odd playoff play back in the 70s that some felt wasn't quite cricket. But, yeah, I could see how the Raiders of the 70s would be compared to the Pats.