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What would you do with City Hall Plaza? And no, just blowing it up isn't an answer
By adamg on Mon, 03/09/2015 - 12:36pm
How about a fountain, like in 1973? Photo from the US National Archives.
Mayor Walsh is soliciting ideas on how to convert City Hall Plaza from a barren brick wasteland into a place people would actually want to spend time on when it's not being used for concerts, festivals or circus performances.
This is the people's plaza, and we’ve seen how it can bring the City together for international events and community events alike. I’m looking to our experts in architecture and urban planning for design, curation, and partnership ideas, as well as residents of Boston and other interested parties.
So you've got a canvas of 200,000 square feet to work with: Go! Oh, and keep in mind that anything truly monumental would probably be promptly vetoed by the federal government, which has final say over major alterations to the plaza due to the JFK Building and which has, in the past, indicated it likes the plaza just the way it is.
You can download a copy of the formal RFI and attend a meeting at 1 p.m. on March 25, in City Hall Room 608.
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Comments
Take a walk to Post Office Square
The answer you are looking for can be found there.
A parking garage with some
A parking garage with some grass on top?
Exactly
A few trees, a few benches, a sandwich shop and somebody handing out cushions during the day.
That's it!
This lack of imagination led
This lack of imagination led to the extremely disappointing Rose Kennedy Greenway. Sure its better than a highway, but its not a destination park like Jamaica Pond or the esplanade or the similarly narrow Hi Line in NY. Its just a median strip interrupted by highway ramps. Post Office Sq park is fine for office workers to eat their lunch, but its not a place that draws people into the city, we should aim a little higher for City Hall Plaza.
Lack of Imagination?
The Government Center Plaza is a prime example of too much imagination.
Post Office Square is heavily used and dearly loved because it was about spaces for people, not imaginative guessing.
Goverment Center may be too large as a whole for a similar use, but it can have some attractive, everyday spaces, and still support a concert space, too.
When was the last time you
When was the last time you were at home on a Saturday and said to the family, "lets take the T downtown (or drive) and hang out at post office square!" Its fine for a lunch spot, Ive used it for that, but why not aim for a really great civic space that is exciting and worth a trip downtown for? Just because Govt Center is a failure (partly from neglect, as is evident from the pic), doesn't mean Boston should never try something other than grass for public space. Government Center is this boogeyman puritans use to say never try anything new, its scary and it might not work. Boston has done a lot of things first or early and been successful for it, a few mistakes along the way is not an excuse to never try again.
Not about grass
This is about public spaces being built for the things that people actually do or will do.
In the case of PO square, they scored a home run with a very small bit of open space.
The problem with the Greenway, if there even is one, is that too much theory got imposed on it. That is also the problem with City Hall Plaza.
What pray tell are these evil
What pray tell are these evil theories you demonize?
Critical thinkers can design good parks ya know. They don't all have to be based on 1890s aesthetics, blocks of granite, lawn, arbors and Central Park benches.
High line, the new governors island, millennium park in chicago, crissey field in SF, tanner springs park in Portland...
PO Square is landscape comfort food, no problem there, but a high profile location like govt center could stand some spice and season
The Zak
a Statue of the Zak holding his hand out with stenographic records!
Tom now, Tom forever.
A VERY large sign stating "Mayor Menino Welcomes You to City Hall Plaza."
Menino hole?
If we want to honor Hizzonah Menino let's dig a hole half way to China and leave it there.
Wait
That sign isn't there already?
Soooo
So if the fed will veto just about any modification? So why are we wasting our time and resources on this?
(PS - Curious to know if this "first right of refusal" will go away when the FBI moves to Chelsea in a year or two)
Marty is out of parades to plan
But he's gotta at least look like he's doing something.
Major modifications
They're the reason there's no hotel on the plaza, like Menino wanted to build. I don't know what they'd think about, oh, I dunno, a permanent food-truck corral.
Trees
Trees would be a good start.
Then maybe some covered seating areas.. you know, like rip out the 1960s-era concrete ones and put ones that don't hurt your hiney to sit on for more than 5 minutes.
Both
Permanent food truck pod Portland-style, and trees and grass and benches.
Trees and a fountain provide
Trees and a fountain provide shade and a sense of peace for workers and visitors seeking a break from the hustle and bustle of the city. Food trucks idling four hours on a hot summer day is kind of nasty... besides, there are so many quick food options at Quincy Market.
You must be joking
Food trucks don't idle if they are in pods - they draw current from the grid. That is part of the point of having pods for them.
Quincy Market? Quick? Seriously? You can't get near the place a lot of the time and the prices are astronomical.
Totally serious. Pack your
Totally serious. Pack your lunch if you think lunch prices are too expensive in Boston. There is nothing cheap about eating at a food truck every day. I dont' know what food trucks you frequent, but the ones I walk do add to heat and pollution.
That's because...
...food trucks in Boston have only been done in a lame half-assed fashion. Do 'em right and it's very different.
Ever been to a pod?
No?
Check it out. You can see hookups in some of the pictures.
This handbook describes what is required of food trucks and explains how a "pod" has electrical and waste water and sanitary facilities for the truck workers.
The point is to take care of that heat and pollution by providing electrical hookup facilities - similar to what many container ports are doing to cut idling pollution.
Food trucks aren't cheap but they are cheaper and much faster than trying to spawn with the tourists at Quincy Market. If you work downtown, I'm surprised that you don't understand that.
Some of us don't want MORE
Some of us don't want MORE trucks and cars cluttering up public spaces. Food trucks are ALL OVER Boston -- check the schedule and visit the one nearest you.
Define "clutter"?
I dunno, I don't see them being "ALL OVER Boston", but maybe we define clutter differently. They seem few and widely scattered to me. Concentrating a larger number in one place, with amenities to support food preparation and sales, seems like a good idea.
When I visited Portland last summer, I went to one of the pods and was quite impressed. The trucks were all grouped together into a space that accommodates that purpose. There were a large number of them, with a huge variety of food, and very competitive prices. One criticism I have of food trucks in Boston is the prices, which seem to charge 20-40% more for what you'd get in a restaurant. Portland's doing something right.
No food trucks!
I love the idea of food truck pods in Boston. I love food trucks. But not on City Hall's front lawn. Carve out some space on Congress for the trucks.
Maybe some wind break architecture/ artwork that could be removed for shows in the summer?
Even better, redevelop the whole parcel, make it pedestrian friendly, and put a new green and functional City Hall elsewhere.
I'm actually a bit fond of the building but I think the building and plaza are almost fatally flawed.
da feds
There's more than the FBI down there. Immigration is in that building and as far as I know they aren't moving to Chelsea. Ditto Department of Labor and Social Security Admin. Must be a few others in there... When he was playing Senator didn't Scott Brown have his office in there too? If so, does that mean Warren is now in there or does she get digs somewhere else?
Boston FBI HQ
Not in the JFK Building for almost 20 years. Since the mid-90s, it has across the street at One Center Plaza.
Yeah, they took a hint from a
Yeah, they took a hint from a lot of MA state offices for the Chelsea move. So much less expense and a lot more space. Ever been in the FBI Offices? It's a maze of narrow hallways and gigantic conference rooms of space that can't be used efficiently because of the weird shape of Center. Glad they're making the move but, ugh. Chelsea.
Off the top of my head, there
Off the top of my head, there is the VA, Social Security, Medicare, IRS, and possibly Senator Warren's office.
Unfortunately no. FBI is in
Unfortunately no. FBI is in Center Plaza, Homeland is in JFK.
CHP could easily improved by
CHP could easily improved by just sticking grass and some trees on it, a la Post Office Square. It's really the barren hardscape that is CHP's biggest problem. The steps all over the plaza should be converted into smooth grade changes as well. It just needs to become a place were people want to go to find shade, meet friends, use the free WiFi and rest/have lunch. There are plenty of people in the area to use it.
The grass' contrast with City Hall would be spectacular too.
It's important to note that the Plaza itself is a deck, as Government Center is below CHP. It poses large engineering challenges when proposing a major modification on the plaza deck itself.
Or not
The reason the European plazas that have little or even no green space work is that there is life happening at the pedestrian level right on the plazas. Ones to look at are Campo De Fiori and Piazza Navona in Rome.
Campo de Fiori has their market that is around until shortly after noon and then it is broken down and enjoyed as a gathering space in late afternoon/evening. Piazza Navona is lined with shops of all kinds and heavily trafficked. Both are attended by tourists and locals alike. But it's also a culture that appreciates a relaxed meal.
At Boston's city hall plaza, there are pedestrian level activities nearby, they are not directly on the plaza. Well, except for those food trucks. They need to decide how the space is to be used and then go from there.
Would the city be all right with shops along Cambridge St or show concern for cutting off Center Plaza? There may be room to build something on the plaza with with arched openings, similar to Center Plaza which would get some activity right on the plaza.
Or plant some trees. They won't guarantee activity. And might get destroyed during the large "Go winning sportsball team that just won or is about to go off to try and win!" or "Yay my is playing and I'm so excited I have to climb this thing to see better!" gatherings.
The issue is one of giving people reason to be there in the first place.
Some considerations to add here
1. The area is a pedestrian connection point between parts of the city, transit centers, and tourist amenities. That needs to be preserved and facilitated.
2. The plaza is often used to host large gatherings and events in a central, walking and transit oriented area, and there isn't a good replacement for that if it is built on or divided up. Some infrastructure for this would be useful.
3. There are ways other than trees and grass to create shade and comfort to sub-areas of the plaza that will attract lunch munchers and footsore tourists or accommodate seating for a food pod (but not need the same level of care).
Yes!
I was thinking any building would occur around the perimeter - and be as relatively narrow as the Center Plaza structures. Maybe more narrow.
The plaza can still hold large numbers with that. I wonder if we can compare the sizes of Siena's Piazza del Campo with City Hall Plaza. And then us some horse races going. ;-)
ETA - I'd forgotten that it was modeled after said famed plaza. Silly me.
I remember noting that when I first visited Siena...
and thinking how acute the differences were in scale, activity, etc. The Campo is like a bowl, much smaller and ringed with dense buildings, shops cafes, etc. No office towers, no streams of traffic--there's a wonderful sense of centering and enclosure. It really does feel a bit like a theatre, whereas CHP currently has no centre and no direction.
It's important to note that
Which may preclude the planting of trees there, at least large ones to provide shade; there isn't enough root space. And without shelter from sun and wind it may not be possible to grow much of anything else there either - you'd need heavy irrigation to compensate and that could be a potential problem for the T underneath.
Deck
It can be done - look at Boston Common over the parking garage or Millennium Park in Chicago. One must review the structural systems below and shore as necessary.
For rooftop garden gorgeousness, check out the Healing Garden atop Mass General.
It can be done, structural engineers are needed, and is not cheap.
No trees on top of the Boston Common Garage
It's under the Parade Ground, which was always treeless.
The volume of a tree below
The volume of a tree below ground is roughly the same as above. You can put little trees in big planters on rooftops but all the structural engineers in the world aren't going to get big trees to grow somewhere without the space for their equally big root systems.
Then no trees
How about some lovely arbors with climbers instead? I love climbers.
Arbors with climbing vines
We have nearby an example of how to do it right -- Christopher Columbus Park -- and an example of how to do it wrong -- the North End part of the Greenway.
Not necessarily
Generally you are correct, but there are trees with shallow root systems.
I don't know them off hand, but if you really need a list ...
Extend Hanover Street across
Extend Hanover Street across the Plaza to reconnect with Cambridge Street. Plant small trees and greenery centered around a beer garden. Put a few small fountains, benches, and tables outside the beer garden for people to eat at. Have a few food carts and keep the food truck parking spaces to provide that food.
Tell the Feds to go screw if they don't like changes to the plaza. The city owns the plaza and the FBI is vacating the JFK building for some bunker like thing in Chelsea anyway.
actually
it's going to be a 9 story building with 3 levels of parking under it.. far from a bunker. but I digress.
Tear out the bricks
and put grass and trees there.
Then blow up City Hall.
Close...
But instead of trees and grass, I'd like to see City Hall turned around and face Faneuil Hall and the Harbor. Thinking maybe a 4-5 story building that arcs the length of the plaza - kind of like arms reaching out to the water. I'd pay for it by selling development rights to a commercial building along Cambridge Street - but unfortunately I'm guessing the Feds would put the kybosh on that.
You'd have to leave a view corridor between the two buildings to keep the Old North Church in view - so perhaps a one story arcade with a food court for the public and the workers that runs between the two buildings.
Nice idea - but not holding my breath.
Wow.
You're so right, though yes--pretty much impossible. It's strange how City Hall really does turn its back on Faneuil Hall, at least from the street level. What a crazy non-plan that whole thing seems now.
I believe
It used to be open on State Street and then security theater took over and closed off that entrance.
I distinctly recall going in on that side to find my way over to Parking to contest a ticket. And then it became egress only. Do they even allow that anymore?
Simple,
put a Walmart there.
Flea Market
How about a weekly open air flea market?
We got wunna dem already
Why, no?
Post Office Square is nice, but
Please try to pull off a protest at Post Office Square. The Leventhals have the right to ask you (and force you) to leave if you do not do anything other than sit / sit and eat.
Post Office Square can be a good model, but let's also not try to have Arcadia within the City. More buildings, more traffic, and a better run park, not Boston Common 2.
Mayor Walsh needs to concentrate
On converting snow banks, frozen sidewalks and snow filled dangerous streets and intersections into safer passages for pedestrians and vehicles.
Twofer
So turn City Hall Plaza into a snow farm. Pile it high and you have Mt. City Hall Plaza. Pile it higher and the feds will complain that it's a snowy knoll which snipers can use to siege the JFK building.
1. Tear out the bricks.
1. Tear out the bricks.
2. Build a new city hall in the space.
3. Tear the old one down.
4. Build a nice plaza there.
I know you said that tongue in cheek, but...
...it is interesting to imagine what CHP would be like if the plaza part was on the "cliff" side, overlooking Fanuel Hall and Quincy Market, out towards the water, instead of the ugly concrete of the building across Cambridge Street. Literally "monumental vision" obscuring a complete lack of vision -- that was 60s architecture in a nutshell.
A few years back The Globe had an article with an interview of the lead architect of City Hall, and he defended everything to the hilt. I thought, "45 years later and you still don't get it, do you?"
20th century architecture doctrine:
The architect always gets it.
The critics are just rubes and never do.
Paint City Hall
Paint City Hall some interesting colors - unfortunately the bare concrete aged really poorly.
Add a burlesque theatre
It's back in style now, and would be a nice homage to the area's former identity.
Call it the 'New Howard'.
Not just burlesque.....
How about a permanent outdoor performance/exhibition/festival space? It's special events (like the circus) that draw most people to CHP as it is. It would alleviate the over use of spaces like the Common for those kinds of events.
Yes!
Then we can have outdoor burlesque shows to help shed this city's puritan image.
Can We Fit The Entire Olympics There?
If not, I'm still against them, Marty.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Mock all you want
But a place like that would be ideal for some type of Olympic events. If they were smart, actual events like, say, beach volleyball could be done there, but more likely it could be re-invented as a kind of Olympic Park with big ass TV screens and whatnot.
TV screens in City Hall Plaza
are a good idea that ought to be tried more often. I watched a few World Cup games there, and I also recall them setting up bleachers in the plaza to watch the All-Star Game when it was in Fenway Park.
I remember that fountain
I remember that fountain. Notice there are trees also, paltry looking though they are. Strangely, the plaza seemed more inviting back then in the 70s. In the photo there are people around eating lunch, etc. You don't really see that now. Maybe it's because people were more used to that type of architecture back then. It was even considered hip. Eventually they filled in the fountain and used it for a planter, planting "decorative cabbages", the most hideous looking plant known to man. Now it's covered up completely, making the place look even more barren.
Peace Garden?
Do I remember correctly that at some point, they dragged in Yo-Yo Ma and tried to brand those cabbages as a "peace garden?"
Not only the fountain...
... but there was a restaurant with outdoor seating on the ground floor of Sears Crescent, plus the architects of City Hall envisioned a beer garden-type restaurant & gardens as part the building itself, if I remember correctly.
I vividly recall that fountain area as it looks in that photo. At lunchtime during the week when the weather was warm the benches were packed. The planters made it a little oasis & sometimes the water flowing down the steps was turned off, providing extra seating. It was a great place to go & read or do some homework after school, which a bunch of us used to do. I guess we don't do in-ground fountains well here. The one which used to be in front of the Common Visitor's Center on Tremont is long gone & filled in while the Gov't Center one failed in stages, with the stepped waterfall going kaput first. But what can you expect when two long-serving mayors in the form of Flynn & Menino hated City Hall & the plaza and ignored both, putting more energy into going-nowhere proposals to move elsewhere.
As for Yo-Yo Ma's project, that was called "The Music Garden" and was meant to occupy the long strip between City Hall & the JFK . Menino initially seemed to like the idea, then dithered while funding languished. It was eventually built in Toronto. The concept involved creating a formal garden inspired by a specific composition, initially a Bach suite for cello.
Thanks for the recollections....
... even if it is dispiriting to realize just how many lost opportunities lie behind the present state of the plaza. BTW, the Big Apple Circus has just started its version of Occupy the Plaza.
Steps
I think the grade changes are enough that you can't make the whole thing sloping. That grade change from State to Cambridge St is not easy to overcome and still be universally accessible. It's a nice thought, but some study needs to be done (not a study by a committee, but one by either architects or landscape architects) to check the allowances. Did you know that you can only have 30' long ramps and then need landing? And that's at 1:12 slope. You can't go steeper. If you get the slope down to 1:20, then you can go without railings.
The fountain was great until the leaking got too bad. I don't know how it was constructed then, but they certainly didn't build it like those in Italy! Tech today has gotten to the point that they could certainly tear up where the old fountain was and rebuild - better and faster. (Sorry, I was channeling the Bionic Man/Woman show intro)
Sorry if I was unclear, but I
Sorry if I was unclear, but I wasn't talking about smoothing out the giant staircase. That can stay, but should be cut in half for construction of escalators & an elevator. I was just talking about the random steps all over the Plaza itself. You can easily smooth those grades and achieve ADA compliant slopes.
Got it.
Thanks.
I think it may still be tight, but worth a looksee.
Just something that doesn't remind me of the Hunger Games
This is what CHP currently brings to mind:
https://leftisminfilm.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/hg1.jpg
This Is What CHP Brings To Mind
President Snow...ironic
Nice touch with the photo of the reaping...and more importantly, a photo of "President Snow"...
Big trees.
Big trees.
Not those little sticks they plant in sidewalks that die after 6 years and about 7 inches of growth.
BIG TREES
And make them evergreen too. Its cold here. You know what trees look nice in the cold? PINE TREES.
80 feet minimum.
8-Hole Putting Course
Seriously. With putter rentals like Hubway stations. Once a day someone is chosen at random and given the opportunity to drive a long ball at the mayor' office. Hitting the Mayor's window gets you a free year of parking.
Ideally...
Another Dunkin, and at least 2-3 more BoA's.
But seriously, just more green space. That area of the city is completely devoid of anything green. Add space for food trucks to park, and turn it into a great place to hang out on weekends when there's nothing going on.
As echoed by many commenters before me, they need to plant lots and lots of BIG trees. Create plenty of shade and a more serene, tranquil environment. Even a water feature or fountain would be nice. It could mimic a small combination of the Public Garden and the Common. I'm becoming relaxed just thinking about it...
There's SO much potential with City Plaza. I just hope the powers that be make the right decisions.
No, what's needed is a CVS.
No, what's needed is a CVS. And more jersey barriers and bicycle rack barricades.
You lack imagination
Where's the Verizon store? And a few Starbucks? Now that's local color.
You forgot a bank!
You forgot a bank!
Here's how it's going to go down:
Everyone is going to say "trees and grass". Everyone here has said "trees and grass." Everyone at the meeting is going to say "trees and grass." Everyone who's not at the meeting is going to say "trees and grass."
No trees and grass will be put in. Nobody will explain why trees and grass are not possible. Twenty years from now another mayor will hold another meeting and ask for ideas. Everyone will say "trees and grass."
Rocks and Trees
A fun little Canadian ditty matching Stargate Atlantis, but applicable here.
How can anyone not love the
How can anyone not love the Arrogant Worms?
run some public streets...
along sears crescent down to Quincy Market. and another one on the other side by the fed building...break up the massing of the plaza, intensify edges, more doorways open to the plaza, add landscaping
and then stir
(No subject)
Terminal
Looks terminal.
Floor By Floor Online Directory of City Hall needed !
Floor By Floor Online Directory of City Hall needed !
Two words
Hedge maze
What? No corn maze?
Use your imagination!
City Hall is already
City Hall is already architecturally a metaphor for oppression. Do we really need a hedge maze leading into it as a metaphor for bureaucracy?
Two more words
Death maze.
Already installed
That's the inside of city hall!
Two more, more words....
Velo Drome
Although I would be in favor of naming it, The Swirly G. Rrrrl Velodrome, I am presently in talks with former Mass Governor, $7,500/day about temporarily tearing down city hall and using the whole area as a Dressage arena.
We are almost there, but need to iron out a few things - whether Tag or Trip will receive the security contract. whether Speaker of the House, Bush-Hager can strike a deal with President Kardassian to avert another Goverment shutdown, and if the long awaited red and orange line cars are completed.
Two more more more words
Thunder Dome.
Two men enter! One man leaves!
We already have lots of ideas....
There must be a shelf, perhaps even a bookcase, that dates from Kevin White's earliest days in the mayor's office that is full of plans,proposals, reports, designs and doodles that cover the possibilities of the plaza. They have different subtitles: "Seemed like a good idea at the time," "We ran out of money," "We couldn't get our act together," "The feds don't like it," "What were we thinking?!"
Here's my suggestion. Carve the names of all the initiatives that have been launched over the years, and the names of all the people involved, into the brick. It will serve as reminder the next time someone decides we need to do something about this space.
Seriously, the mayor and his team should just review everything, pick a couple of ideas, and then MAKE THEM HAPPEN!
From 2011:
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2011/03/16/after_many_false_star...
http://www.boston.com/business/gallery/cityhallrenderings/
http://www.epa.gov/smartgrowth/pdf/GAC_Boston.pdf
http://www.utiledesign.com/projects/greening-americas-capitals-bostons-c...
From the competition in 1995:
Question: does the City Hall Plaza Trust still exist?
http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/67432
Homeless Shelter & Casino
Build a shelter for the homeless. Next door, put a state-run casino to fund it.
(As a bonus, those who blow the mortgage money playing at the casino can just take a short walk to their new home.)
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
How many floors are there in Boston City Hall ?...
How many floors are there in Boston City Hall ?...
Friends of Boston City Hall
http://friendsofbostoncityhall.org/
Just please, let there be no
Just please, let there be no more Big Apple Circus. MYGODICAN'TSTANDTHECOMMERCIALSANYMORE.
Too late
They are back, taking over most of the plaza. (They may have started their re-occupation yesterday, as I didn't cross the plaza then -- by this morning, blocking off was already well-advanced). So, I have to use Haymarket (and the back entrance to the JFK Building)for the next 6 weeks.