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Like Boston firefighters, T union will fight vaccine mandate unless members get something in return

The Boston Carmen's Union, Local 589, vowed yesterday to fight any requirement to show proof of Covid-19 vaccination without something in return from the T.

Local President Jim Evers responded to Gov. Baker's executive order yesterday requiring tens of thousands of state workers - although not workers at authorities, such as the MBTA - to show proof of vaccination by mid-October:

By no means are we agreeing to these terms without negotiation and will continue to fight on your behalf.

Throughout this pandemic, we have played an essential role in transporting frontline workers (police, firefighters, nurses, health care providers, grocery workers, and other vital professions) throughout the state to their jobs.

We are committed to protecting your interests, your safety, and that of your family. We will enter into dialogue with state and MBTA officials, but only if they are prepared to work with us.

Earlier:
Boston firefighters union calls new vaccine mandate a human-rights violation; looking at how to fight it - or get city into collective bargaining over it.

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Comments

something in return? like not going to the hospital with COVID?

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And not spreading it to your family, not spreading it to your co-workers, not spreading it to the general public...

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Where does one read about how the shots prevent the spread of the virus?

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The shots function as a flu shot... nobody needs passports for a flu shot...

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because proof of certain vaccinations is definitely a condition of employment for some already.

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The White House
The CDC
The FDA
Moderna
Pfizer
The WHO

Does this seem odd to you? Probably not. Anyway, carry on.

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Especially about Moderna. I can make a phone call and verify your source within minutes.

So if you are going to spew this nonsense.. please provide a citation. If not. you're just spewing.

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The 3 vax companies say you can take tests instead (unless that changed recently)

Jen Psaki just said the White House doesn’t mandate it.

Walensky said it about the CDC

I’m not sure where I heard FDA and WHO... I’m sure we can find those though...

Separately, Fauci said his colleagues were vaxed at a 40-50% clip a month ago? Maybe that changed by now...

Anyway, enjoy <3

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3 federal agencies, 1 global UN organization and 2 private companies, that's a very selective list you've chosen to present.

Not to mention that my initial reply was to your deflection that no one requires "passports" for flu shots, even though the topic at hand is in regards to employment, where in certain places there absolutely are flu shot requirements as a condition of employment. But go ahead, shift your argument again every time you are wrong.

As an aside, I spent the last week doing stuff that kept me busy and away from this here website. It seems like you've posted a whole bunch of interesting bullshit while I was away and I'd like to express my personal feeling that you should fuck off.

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Don’t waste your time next time... you can fuck off also <3

I still don’t know what the shots do... but I digress

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Instead of Baker issuing an mandate to all employees, what if the the legislature passed a state law requiring masks on all MBTA property and vehicles—all people, no exceptions? This skips over contractual issues/terms of employment. As they say, “I am not a lawyer”, but I do wonder.

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Apart from which level of government has issued the mandate.

The legislature would have to pass a law mandating vaccination of all MBTA employees (or, more likely, employees of all transit agencies/companies providing intrastate transportation) to make this a non-issue with respect to collective bargaining. It gets more complicated with respect to the Commuter Rail since that's operated by Keolis and the legislature probably doesn't have authority here as the Commuter Rail provides interstate transportation -- that power of regulation is reserved to the federal government.

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Wow these guys are really shameless... Willing to put people's live at risk in order to extract more benefits for themselves.

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But unions suffer from the same problems as the management they claim to oppose. I've been in a few unions and found the union management to be just as bad as the lousy company bosses.

The union brass would argue for things I didn't agree with and agree to concessions I didn't want to make. The union's focus was on the older, longtime members and not the younger people doing most of the work. While there was union elections, the structure made it unlikely that anyone I liked would get elected, let alone run.

And they'd work to ensure "fairness" so that lazy, incompetent people got protected while the hardworking people felt they where up against a wall.

I'm sure within the T there's a sizable minority who are furious as they see the value in having everyone vaccinated and fully support the mandate.

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I'm in favor of workers' rights, like those that exist in most civilized countries.

I don't love how so much of the current unionizing, especially of government employees, leads to rampant cultures of "I don't have to do things I don't want to" at odds with the broader ethical standards of their respective fields, rather than bargaining for policies that result in better working conditions and better overall quality of work.

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The greed of the average American should never be underestimated.

Since they want something else for what can save them from suffering then yes, let’s open negotiations. Let the Carmen’s Union pay part of the Commonwealth’s share of the members’ health insurance.

The Carmens Union can also pay part of the Commonwealth’s contribution to the member’s pensions.

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With imposing unilateral changes to collective bargaining agreements. I suppose you think private companies should have the same power, too.

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to see people continue to pretend that these mandates are part of normal business. focus on getting your people vaccinated so that we can get *back* to normal. then you can negotiate your extra vacation day, or whatever.

and please, save the slippery slope argument.

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Let's say the T hypothetically faces a half-billion dollar budget hole for 2023. Should the T be able to say "Hey, sorry, but we can't pay your pensions anymore because we don't have the money?"

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regardless, you can see the ways how a budget shortfall would differ from a virus, right? right?

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Even if you say "please, save the slippery slope argument."

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Legal decisions frequently explain that something has not in fact set a precedent because it's actually not all that similar to the past case. Someone could claim that they're allowed to refuse to pay employees due to a past verdict stating someone was allowed to require vaccination during an emergency health crisis that's killing a bunch of people, but it would be ruled that they're not similar. Literally the only similarity between them is that the government gets to regulate stuff, which, if you think that's not already firmly established...

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This has nothing to do with the rights of employees, workers or fill in the blank any of the stale terms of the Comintern. A global plague is on the order of an asteroid crash. Rare, very rare and potentially devastating beyond any scale of ordinary measure.

The comparison to a shortfall is false, a red herring and full of caca. However, considering how many people have lost pensions or were forced into 401Ks that will still result in diminished living standard, maybe it’s time for well healed retirees to stand with their fellow retirees. Meaning let go some of the pension that allows for taking out the grand kids on the boat.

By the same baton the millionaires and billionaires who own more wealth than they’ll ever need owe to the lessor folks to share their wealth.

Yet it is folks in unions such as the police unions who often voted to screw themselves by voting for Trump and Co. whose raison d’etre is to screw to lower standards of living the people who vote for them.

All the while claiming that “somebody” (Gays, women getting abortions, immigrants) are the reasons that most families need both adults working at a minimum.

Must applaud McConnell, Ryan, et al. for their genius in screwing the average person and receiving praise for the screw. Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin would be proud.

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The vaccine functions as a flu shot... it does not prevent transmission nor does it provide the recipient immunity.

The CDC website says there is “some” evidence that it “may” reduce your own symptoms... :-/

So if we all get the equivalent of flu shots, life goes back to normal?

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i surely can’t tell, and you don’t seem to really know either.

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Congrats on the 10 likes though... good talk...

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In the sense that the flu shot is also a vaccine, yes. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions after that, though.

"Immunity" does not mean, like, magic 100% impenetrable shield. (This isn't a super-hero movie.) It means your own immune response is boosted, such that you are much less likely to get sick. Nomally call that "providing immunity" even though it is not perfect immunity. (Even the dictionary says "having a high degree of resistance to a disease" and "marked by protection" not "entirely exempt".

The CDC website is careful not to over-promise, but you seem to be taking that to the other extreme.

In general, yes, if we would all get the equivalent of flu shots, life would go back to normal. That's the goal. Please get your covid shot, and your flu shot for that matter.

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Mass vaccinating with leaky vaccines is a nightmare.

Rochelle Walensky just said within the last week that the shots do nothing to stop transmission.

Fauci recently said that vaxxed and unvaxxed carry the same viral load and called the vaxxed “super spreaders”

You get your vaccines (flu and Covid) that do nothing and I’ll be the control group of the study (we need one now that they vaccinated the original control group).

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You clearly are here just to spew your nonsense... STFU.

You're wrong. You wrong. You're FUCKING WRONG.

I don't care what you have to say to rebuttal me. You're wrong. You're wrong

Oh... and you're wrong. And I don't give a shit what you have to say.

Go spew your nonsense to people who will listen.. like MAGA.

Maybe you'll realize that you're wrong when you're about to have a tube stuck down your throat.

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Hugs <3

If you’re not too upset with me, I’d love to hear which part(s) are wrong.

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n/t

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It seems like you find articles which have headlines which seem to fit what you want them to say, and read them without any context. You pick out exciting-sounding phrases and repeat them as if that makes you know what you are talking about.

Then, you pretend you want to carry on a rational discussion, which is actually impossible because of the bullshit asymmetry problem — patiently explaining *everything* is many times more work than scanning for more phrases that need to be explained again.

That's which parts are wrong.

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I can’t find a single instance that shows the shots provide the recipient immunity.

Walensky just said the other day that the shots don’t stop transmission (which we already knew).

The CDC website says there is “some” evidence the shots “‘may” lessen your own symptoms

Fauci recently said the unvaxxed and backed have identical viral loads and called the vaxxed super spreaders.

I’ll never understand it... but whatever

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Very first Google hit:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/ho...

and from the top of the page, "It typically takes two weeks after you are fully vaccinated for the body to build protection (immunity) against the virus that causes COVID-19."

Your other information is also wrong, although one could charitably say you're misunderstanding. Fauci was referring to the study about the outbreak in Provincetown, and the key fact is that viral load was found to be near the same in breakthrough cases. Breakthrough cases, though, are still exceedingly rare. Under 10,000 to date in the US requiring hospitalization, with 168 million vaccinated (source). Read more here about how out-of-context or just plain mis-stated data from that report is causing confusion on social media.

We also don't "know" that "shots don't stop transmission". It's still an open question. Walensky did say something like that regarding Delta, but that seems to be an abundance of caution in response to the ptown report; the take-away isn't that vaccines don't work, but that we may need to keep other measures while community transmission is high (again, mostly due to unvaccinated people!). So, returning mask requirements. From the CDC document on this, updated today:

Unvaccinated people remain the greatest concern: The greatest risk of transmission is among unvaccinated people who are much more likely to get infected, and therefore transmit the virus. Fully vaccinated people get COVID-19 (known as breakthrough infections) less often than unvaccinated people. People infected with the Delta variant, including fully vaccinated people with symptomatic breakthrough infections, can transmit the virus to others. CDC is continuing to assess data on whether fully vaccinated people with asymptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit the virus.

Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.

Emphasis added.

None of this information is hard to find, unless you are trying very hard not to.

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Do people still use that misogynistic term?

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not that i’m really fond of using the term, but i think Karen differs from other epithets in the sense that it doesn’t really refer to any characteristics that are inherent to womanhood. maybe someone can tell me why i’m wrong about this.

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But it does seem like it’s associated with white middle aged women who want to speak with managers about stuff. I’m sure white supremacy is built in there somewhere……

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… a petty woman who is a shrew, a harpy, a bitch and who goes above her station in life. It can also be used for a woman who makes false accusations against black men. Or women who in general demand more than they supposedly deserve.
I’ve heard it said that “Karen” is the favorite insult of incels. But that is also a stereotype.
You can Google it for more info. There are some interesting points of view about it.

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I can think of quite a few men for whom the moniker Karen is appropriate.

The let's say more traditional insults are not just flecks of satirizing; they are dehumanizing. Such as the word which in a non-insulting way means female dog.

Insults serve healthy functions. Let folks express annoyance in a healthy way. But insults which demean a person's quality as a human being versus poor behavior are very different. That reinforces the idea of any person being seen as subhuman.

Biff and Buffy were used satirically; Karen seems to fit in the same mold. Who was enraged about the satirizing of Biff and Buffy?

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... but I never actually met anyone named Biff or Buffy -- but have friends and relatives named Karen.

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Where is the sexism in “Biff and Buffy”?

It’s classist, as is “Karen”, but it throws the stereotype equally on both men and women.

I’m confused by your assertion that you can think of quite a few men you could call a “Karen”. Would that not increase the insult by calling them by a woman’s name?
And if referring to a man as a female is degrading then would that not further suggest you or anyone who uses the term think women are inferior?

I’m not saying that you do, in fact, think women are inferior. People use misogynistic slurs all the time without thinking because they are pervasive in our culture. As are many racist, ageist, classist, etc slurs.

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The union should be fighting to ensure their members get priority access to vaccines and subsequent doses if/when they approved. They should be demanding the state enforce a mask requirement if not an outright vaccination requirement on the basis that doing so will keep their members safe.

But no, they just want cash. The health and safety of their members be dammed.

What should happen is this: Get the vaccine or sign a waiver saying you relinquish any employer coverage for healthcare related to COVID. If these guys are so badass they don't think they need medical care, don't give it to them.

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Who do you think ends up being tasked with enforcing a mask or vaccination requirement? Do you think MBTA employees have any interest in engaging with hostile members of the public who refuse to wear a mask or show proof of vaccination? There aren't enough cops to ride every single bus/train to enforce a policy like this.

I agree completely that they should have priority access to vaccines and they were given that access in Phase 2.

At this point, the T employees who haven't been vaccinated have presumably made a conscious decision to not get vaccinated. Those who have been vaccinated should generally be well-protected, and any T employee for whom vaccines are unlikely to be effective should probably have alternate work arrangements, particularly if they come into contact with the public. Are we saying these unvaccinated employees need to be protected from their own decisions? That generally runs afoul of ordinary medical practice for people who are mentally sound.

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Reasonable people can see the difference between requiring a safe vaccine for a widespead and deadly virus vs some medical decision which has no bearing on anyone other than the employee.

If the T required employees to have their appendixes removed or their ears pierced, that would be justifiable grounds for negotiations.

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Everyone working for the T needs to be vaccinated, because they all come into contact with the public at some point while doing their jobs. If they don't want to get their shots, they can go find another job without this requirement. (with reasonable exceptions for legitimate medical reasons)

What the union should be demanding is on-site vaccination clinics, and reasonable paid time off to deal with post-vaccination side effects.

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They did have priority access, back in March.

Transportation workers were part of "phase 2.4", before general access.

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All the “liberals” here turning into management / oppressor class as soon as the workers ask for something in return when a directive is sent down from on high.

Cafeteria Bernie Bros ye be.

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They're centrists.

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in the united states anyway. the term he’s looking for is likely progressives

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If you are going to vote for Michelle Wu, think twice about your stance here on willful submission to the owners of the means of production when thinking that unions should submit like peasants to the lords of the manor.

If you think the unions should submit, make sure you notify the US Chamber Of Commerce and the John Birch Society of your agreement with their principles.

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…and mitigating the impact of a virus that’s taken 3M lives globally is likely not related to the desire to trample workers’ rights.

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Many union members across the country want better protections from Covid

The Union messaging here is stupid. “We want something in return!” but don’t articulate what that is. Instead they issue a vague statement that caters to the “muh freedumbs!” crowd.

If I were a union member, the things I would want in return is free high-quality PPE, additional, special sick/FMLA time where if I am required to take time off from work due to Covid it does not deplete my normal sick/FMLA time, protections against unruly riders who endanger me with their anti-mask tantrums and assaults…

I think few outside the oligarchy crowd would be upsets for unions using a mandate to negotiate common sense assistance for workers to fight Covid. Instead, we have failures of communication and articulation that give the appearance that unions are leveraging the community’s public health for frivolous contract concessions.

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Other unions are just pointing out that this is a major change to work requirements that needs to be negotiated - and that the exemptions are extremely vague.

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Many employers already require various vaccines.

If they do, there's already a procedure in place for exemptions and certification. This is not a major change, just another added to the list.

From the wording of their statements it sure sounds like they are looking to reject the policy or agree only in exchange for other concessions.

But maybe you're right and they just want to ensure the vaccination policy is clear and formalized -- a reasonable demand.

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This is a new type of mandate.

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I'm a socialist, not a liberal. I'm in favor of government mandates for public health and safety, as well as laws and policies based on science, not religion or "but I'm special." I agree with you that liberals should stop allowing conspiracy theorists to turn into a class that oppresses children/elders/disabled folks.

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Once again protecting the members from egregious overreach by the employers.
Unions are good for the people, and in this building neo-fascist technocratic contol state are a necessity for the promotion of common sense and decency for large groups of people against the manipulative and rights-vaccum of the state. If you think otherwise, you have been conned.

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Try googling the phrase, "The boy who cried wolf"

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Do we extend the list of bad unions to also include MBTA?

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Give the Carmen a one day Charlie Ticket. They can stand around at Faneuil Hall and sell them to tourists for cash, and the T will only lose the incremental revenue from tourists who may only ride a few extra stops.

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All union challenges to this are NOT a "gimme".

For example, there needs to be an agreement between the state and the unions about what the words "medical exemption" and "sincerely held religious beliefs" mean in actual, actionable terms. What constitutes proof of vaccination also needs to be settled and agreed to.

This is considered a major change to the terms of employment that requires negotiation. That doesn't mean that unions are demanding things in return apriori. It also doesn't change the simple fact that the exemptions and coverage need to be explicitly defined.

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... if that "belief" includes refusing vaccinations. Get the shot or leave your job.

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Religious beliefs are a choice.
Medical issues are not.

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I have a coworker who cannot be vaccinated - the center she took her parents to refused her due to documented anaphalixis.

Not antivaccination, but nonvaccination.

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Adjust the (next fiscal year) GIC Health Insurance rates upward with waivers for those who vaccinate before the upcoming deadline.

The devil is in the details but this is one of those headlines that really makes Unions look stupid. I would hope their response offers a relatable rationale, and there are some. Otherwise, this seems like a dumb hill to die on.

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Why are the T workers being singled out when they have been working this whole questionable crisis? Are the employees dying? A lot of attacks on the working people out of jealousy. Stop hating! Clearly you don’t care about anyone’s health.

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