Update: Teen held in shooting of coach at Roxbury park.
Several men walked up to a Pop Warner coach at a youth sporting event at Washington Park shortly after noon today and opened fire, Boston Police report.
The coach, 39, was only hit once and was rushed to Boston Medical Center for treatment of a non-life-threatening injury.
Investigative information indicates that the victim and at least one of the suspects had come into contact prior to the actual shooting incident.
Investigators are canvassing the area seeking additional investigative leads. Commissioner Davis has also increased the number of officers on patrol.
Like the job UHub is doing? Consider a contribution. Thanks!
Ad:
Comments
That's the one I'm looking for.
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 9:23pm
See my comment below, where I quoted some 2005 trace numbers.
Link to said study? No link
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 11:28pm
Link to said study?
No link to liberal biased think tank, or right wing nut jobs tank either please.
Linked below
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:25am
You're one to ask for a link, using your hand-picked fatality rate numbers, sans link of course, to make a point.
2000 census data
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:36am
2000 census data Bruce...
Even I thought you'd know those by memory if you're going to get into this argument...
Or does the Census & CDC data have a liberal bias...?
[i]
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_13... Table 2
[/i]
table 29 got cut off for
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:38am
table 29
got cut off for some reason...
/liberal bias!
//I kid!
who cares who can carry a gun legally
By worried mom
Sat, 10/20/2007 - 2:38pm
There are too many illegal guns out there, we need to protect our children and i dont mean by carrying a gun i refer to the poloce protecting our children. I think there should be extra police at the games where the kids are more likely to caryy a weapon. I dont want to stereotype a certain group of kids but we all know there are more kids carrying or who have access to a gun in boston area than we do over here in medford malden area. I am an upset mom being made to put my child in a dangerous situation is not something i would not do willingly and i try not to do it unwillingly. So why am i sending my daughter to a dangerous area in mission hill because if we dont send our daughters there they cant compete in eastern ma. competition how unfair is that. we try so hard to protect our children now we are force to put them in a dagerous situation its not right.
worried mom
worried mom is right
By Anonymous
Sat, 10/20/2007 - 2:44pm
why should we have to put our kids were we would not let them go were we forbid our children from going just because if we dont let them go we lose our chance to compete how unfair your right to be worried i would be too what to do.
Continuing…
By HerrBGone
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 9:42pm
It isn’t “socioeconomic disparity” or “lack of opportunity” that causes crime.
I lived with my mother in a single parent home in Maryland back in the sixties. We were close enough to DC that from my bedroom window we could see the columns of smoke rising over the city when DC burned during the riots. We were dirt poor. I was never hungry only because Mum did what ever she had to within the law to keep us fed. Fast forward to today: I now own my own home. I have three cars and a boat. (Wanna buy a boat?) And I have a good career. I have never been on drugs or in a gang. I have always been a law abiding citizen. I came from just as tough a set of circumstances as any of these ‘poor deprived inner city kids’ and would have had just as many excuses as any of them to have gone bad.
There is no need to join a gang or take up crime as a way of life. Not in America! This is still the land of opportunity. If I can make it here – anyone can!
So don’t tell me that I have to surrender my constitutional rights because some malevolent criminal can’t be trusted to live among us with the same freedoms that law abiding citizens such as ourselves enjoy!
OK, one more before I go to bed
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 11:47pm
I can't let this "pearl of wisdom" go unanswered.
How about citizens? Mass has 3.1 deaths per 100,000 while Gods Country in Alabama has 13.1 per 100,000.
No correlation to the ability to get guns?
In a word, no.
Washington DC = 26.9
You're talking about state firearms fatality rates. I notice you neglected to post your source to back up your numbers. Here's a link. Though, these are 2003 numbers, which have Alabama at 16.9. If you have more current numbers, feel free to share them with the rest of the class.
I can't blame you though for not posting the actual data. It shows just how disingenuous your argument is, seeing as it's based on two hand-picked data points that you're using to "prove" your case. Typical tactic of those who can't win arguments with facts and truth.
Here's how that works, using the same link from above:
Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 by state:
#1 - District of Columbia = 26.9
#43 - New Hampshire = 6.7
Look! I've just "proven" that draconian gun control causes a drastic increase in firearm fatalities!!!
Yawn.
Yawn. Indeed, We can all
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:41am
[i]Yawn.[/i]
Indeed,
We can all pick outliers to fit our own agendas, why don;t you post the statistical trends?
Where's DC by the way? How easy is it to drive an hour or two to a state with guns laws much more lax?
Rationality be damned!
No
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:45am
"We can all pick outliers to fit our own agendas"
Only you did that. I was merely using your same technique to show how ridiculous your original question was.
I don't claim to know all
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 3:58pm
I don't claim to know all the facts, but to me making it harder for people to own guns is fine by me.
I really don't see how the 2nd amendment is relevant anymore in a world where a militia will have six shooter and semi's while a military dispatched against them has MOAB's and M60's... It all made sense circa 1779, but today it's outdated.
Either way, Banning guns isn't an option because of our history. But what's the hate for making it harder to own and especially carry? I'd love to hear a sane rational to let anyone who wants a gun, get one. Why shouldn't gun owners, especially those who carry, have to go extensive background checks, psychiatric checks and regular gun safety courses? Make the checks better, and if you pass have at it.
I don't want some home schooled kid planning a school massacre have access to a gun because him mom easily went out and bought one for him without a second thought.
Not sure on the correlation of gun deaths per capita vs. carry laws, but as far as I know it's a well known fact that southern states have a much higher rate of Police Officer Death by handguns (with NYC as an outlier). Also gun deaths are the number one cause of Police officer deaths right in front of auto accidents since 1997.
I think it's fair to note states such as Alabama had 435 officer deaths, while Massachusetts had only 293 with 2 million more residents.
http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/state.htm
http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/causes.htm
I also think it's fair to make sure the people who want a gun are:
1) Who they say they are
2) Have a clean psychiatric bill of health
3) Have no prior major convictions, both civic and criminal
4) Required to take safety and marksmanship courses
Of course they also need a system that's fair and works along these guidelines.
If you can do this across a federal level, i'm sure you'll see deaths drop. It won't work unless every state is on the same page.
Home-schooled kid?
By Gareth
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 4:11pm
Wouldn't a home-schooled kid planning a school massacre... target his family?
Why on earth would a home-schooled kid go shoot up a school? Sounds to me like you're gratuitously picking on home-schoolers.
agreed
By Anonymous5
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 4:19pm
Weren't all the school shooters bullied in "normal" schools anyway?
(I'd think a home-schooled kid would be less likely to commit a school shooting as he or she would have parental supervision almost all the time -- I say this as a public school graduate, so no offense to anyone else who is a public school kid)
Sorry I plead the fifth, I
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 4:23pm
Sorry I plead the fifth,
I was comic-quizigly making a reference to a news story from a few days ago. The point was that it's very easy to get a gun in some states, very hard in others, and until the laws are unison over all states, illegally owned guns are going to flow from one state to another.
If it was harder to get a gun in Alabama (and all others) as it is in mass, you will see gun violence go down. Doesn't need to be outlawed, just needs to be enforced in a way of keeping guns out of the hands of reckless people, such as the mother who bought her kid and arsenal of airsoft guns, and then a real one.
Pop Quiz
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 5:07pm
1. What is the #1 source state for guns used in crimes in New York?
a. New Hampshire
b. Georgia
c. Virginia
d. New York
1. What is the #1 source state for guns used in crimes in Massachusetts?
a. Maine
b. Vermont
c. Alabama
d. Massachusetts
Answers:
1. d.
2. d.
And you un-biased source
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 5:31pm
And you un-biased source is?
Screaming from a soap-box != facts
Don't worry...
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 8:59pm
I'll get you the source info (unlike some other folks 'round here).
Portland Press Herald (Aug. '06)
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 9:21pm
link
These records show that 8 percent of the illegal guns confiscated in the Bay State in 2005 that could be traced were originally purchased in Maine. That makes Maine the second largest source for out-of-state crime guns coming into Massachusetts, just behind New Hampshire. But by far the largest share of illegal guns in Massachusetts, 37 percent, were traced back to gun dealers within the Bay State.
I'll get some more recent numbers, if you'd like. Gimme some time.
I'll get those NY numbers for you too, and the beautiful spin Bloomberg came up with to try and deflect criticism from his backyard.
Here you go, Bruce:
By HerrBGone
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:03pm
Direct from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/trace_data/index.htm
Got it already, thanks.
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:09pm
A quick search through Say Uncle's archives was all it took.
That's the one.
By HerrBGone
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:12pm
Looks like you beat me to it.
Here you go, pal.
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 9:57pm
(see page 6)
New York
Massachusetts
How about some other "common sense gun laws" states?
Illinois
New Jersey
Delaware
California
Hawaii
Oh, wait. You wanted an unbiased source. These came from the U.S. Department of Justice (BATFE, to be precise). Those are federal agencies. They must be run by a bunch of neo-con Bush cronies.
BUSH LIED!!!
HALLIBURTON!!!
Now, let me try my hand at some Bloomberg spin.
"Massachusetts is the #1 out-of-state source for crime guns recovered in New Hampshire! They simply need to do more to close down this iron pipeline that's killing our young people!"
See how that works, kids?
Good start, but it's time
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:52am
Good start, but it's time for bed for this "kid"
Anyways, see how easy it is to elevate the conversation and stop from regressing into name calling and cheap talking points?
All I have to say is, so far with MA; 1/3 of guns are from in state, but how many combined are from states that have much less strict GCL's? How many have had their serials removed to the point they are untraceable?
And off topic, but on topic, why can't guns be serialized with laser inscription in several random places, much like diamonds are, so that serial number can't be easily removed? /not sure on that last one
599 out of state weapons vs
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:31am
599 out of state weapons vs 334 in state weapons; of the ones which they could confirm...
[data's a little fuzzy, what does the number on the state vs the number in the bottom point to]
I'd also hope state police following up with the original owners of in state weapons, if they didn't own the firearm in the first place.
NH:
81 out of state weapons vs 112 instate of the ones they could confirm, a reversed ratio, plus you need to consider the fact that it's easier to get a handgun in NH.
yet with more gun prosecutions total, Mass has 1/2 the gun related deaths per 100,000 citizens....
Other factors at play
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 8:56am
Massachusetts, Boston in particular, is also home to the largest 24-hour Level 1 trauma center in New England, conveniently located a stone's throw away from where a bulk of the gang activity is taking place.
What do you suppose would happen to the "firearms death rate" in Massachusetts, if all the shooting victims from Roxbury and Dorchester had to be driven by ambulance to a hospital in Woburn for life-saving treatment?
I'd give a gangbanger with a .38 caliber slug in the gut in Roxbury a better chance of survival than a hunter in New Hampshire who just took a 30-30 in the midsection up in the North Country.
A study out of UNC a while back looked at just this kind of relationship between trauma death rates and the proximity of trauma centers. They concluded:
There are simply too many factors at play here to look at one set of statistics and claim victory based on such a shallow overview.
A:z A:z "all other states
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:36am
A:z
A:z
"all other states combined"
It's all in how you ask the question!
Am I the only one who see's that if you can halt the transportation of smuggled out of state guns from areas with lax gun control laws, you could [b]half[/b] the number of illegal [traceable] guns in Massachusetts?
wouldn't that go a far way to protecting our selfs from being shot? Or would they just be used more often ; }
Who says they're smuggled?
By HerrBGone
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 9:53am
I used to live in Maryland. Now I'm in Marxistchusetts. Soon I'll be living in New Hampshire or Maine. All of my possessions will be coming with me when I move. Look also at how long the guns took to get from state to state. The vast majority of "out of state guns" were brought in state by their owners when they moved, usually quite some time after purchasing them. Others were inherited when the original owner passed away. It can all be gleaned from the data – if you look at it objectively.
Good Idea
By Andrew
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 4:32pm
Every single item you mentioned is already required, along with letters of recommendation on company letterhead from 3 different people. So apparently you are uninformed.
I'm also informed that in
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 5:35pm
I'm also informed that in many states, all you need to do is walk into a trade show to bypass said laws, and even some states waive several of them besides the federally mandated criminal background check.
Again, without a nation wide enforcement on gun laws, you're right, they don't work. Get all the states playing by the same rules and you'll see the benefits.
Absolutely
By SgtCarter
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 6:58pm
You're right. We should work to ensure stringent gun laws like those of the progressive state of Vermont are made
to apply nationwide. That way we could
enjoy their low violent crime rate.
I *heart* VT!
By HerrBGone
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:08pm
Works fer me!
AP statistics man.. there
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 11:37pm
AP statistics man..
there are always outliers, doesn't mean you overlook the majority of the data......
Basing a trend of a state with the lowest population per land mass & capita [which is most likely offset by other smaller states] isn't statistically relevant. Everyone can cherry pick data, but it's too bad data tends to have a reality base bias, right?
I hate to bring this up, but how do you account for gun deaths in Great Britain since it outlawed most firearms? And please don't bring up relative crime, as we are talking about limiting gun deaths and the factor increased guns has on gun deaths.
I'd rather go up against a punk with a knife then a gun, wouldn't you? I'm much more sure of my own ability to defend myself without a fire arm, then myself with one gun against 4-5 people carrying illegally. And as you said, those who carry illegally, will do so anyways. Doesn't that negate your argument?
Doctors would also like seeing a victim with a knife wound then a gun shot, as statistically they're much less lethal and survival rates are higer.
Heh.
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 11:52pm
Everyone can cherry pick data...
As you've amply demonstrated (see above).
OK, I'm off to bed. This time I mean it.
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:11am
"...and the factor increased guns has on gun deaths."
Define or clarify what you mean by "increased guns".
I won't bring up relative crime in the UK. Just gun crime, which by all accounts is soaring through the roof. Even more so, given the news stories this past year about the government downplaying and misreporting crime data.
I'll link that later on. I'm tired.
With regard to the US/UK firearms fatality rates you're alluding to, how is it calculated? What goes into arriving at this number?
Does it include accidental hunting deaths? What do those numbers look like for these states in question? How about suicides? Does it differentiate between criminal use of firearms and justifiable homicide? I have to assume that shootings by those who are supposed to be disarmed by existing gun laws are included. How about fatal shootings by law enforcement officers? What methods are used to compile this data in these two countries?
And as you said, those who carry illegally, will do so anyways. Doesn't that negate your argument?
Only if you see surrender as a morally superior path to take.
Yep...
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:07pm
You're falling for the "gun show loophole" talking point. Private, or face-to-face, sales are permitted in many states, provided the seller is not prohibited from owning firearms. Selling to a prohibited person is a felony in all 50 states.
If person A is willing to commit the felony of selling a gun to prohibited person B, how will making that "more illegal" deter him from doing so?
The fact that some of these transactions take place at a gun show is irrelevant. They can just as easily take place in the parking lot outside the gun show, from the back of a van 50 miles from the gun show, or in someone's kitchen on the other side of the state.
Anyone purchasing a firearm from an FFL (Federal Firearms License) dealer at a gun show is required to complete the 4473 form, and is subject to a NICS background check. Some states allow for CCW permit holders to bypass the background check, as they've already voluntarily subjected themselves to such a check on their backgrounds.
Get all the states playing by the same rules...
Yeah, just like Menino wants Boston's bigoted gun laws to be used as the national model. No thanks.
But you and I both know that
By PrivateGomerPyle
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 11:55pm
But you and I both know that in many states these laws aren't followed as strictly as they could. Prosecutions, when braking these laws, is almost nonexistent in most states with lax gun laws.
Thats not the same as a uniform gun control law, which is why it will never every work.
It goes the same with legalized mary jane, as long as some states in the union have lesser or more severe laws, it becomes an issue of distribution on a black market.
Like i said, responsible citizens should be permitted to own guns.
I'm much less likely to allow them to carry in public, because then you're infringing on my own rights to not escalate a dangerous situation, much like forcing me to inhale your secondary smoke. We all have rights against fellow citizens actions that infringe upon our own rights.
Even thought you have the right to life and liberty and no-one infringing on your rights, if you pull a gun in a situation in a public place, where I'm also present, your infringing on my rights also, no matter what your "noble" {if misguided} cause is. I could give a rats ass if your going to "save" me.
As an example; should I dive into a car with a woman and child in tow because some guy jumps me with a gun while walking home? Just because he's much more likely not to shoot in that instance? I'd never think of it!
I'd also think very carefully of putting other peoples lives in danger just because I had a concealed weapon and feel like I'm the Texas Ranger. I'm really sick of this tough guy internet talk I see everywhere these days.
You want to serve the public, you want to pack heat, quit your day job and serve! Boston cops are hiring, National guard is hiring, hell the coast guard is hiring, and they all let you play with some fun big boy toys.
OK...
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:32am
"Prosecutions, when braking these laws, is almost nonexistent in most states with lax gun laws."
Should I even waste my breath asking for a link to your source for that one?
Even thought you have the right to life and liberty and no-one infringing on your rights, if you pull a gun in a situation in a public place, where I'm also present, your infringing on my rights also, no matter what your "noble" {if misguided} cause is. I could give a rats ass if your going to "save" me.
Dude, you're insane.
If I pull a gun in public, it's because my life is under immediate threat. Sorry if that scares you. You don't have the right to not be scared by others acting in a perfectly legal fashion.
My rights are not subject to your feeeeeelings.
I'm done with you man. You're beyond help.
My rights are not subject to
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:01am
[i]My rights are not subject to your feeeeeelings.[/i]
You also don't have any "right" to subjugate mine.
If you think it's you god giving right to pull out a six pistol in a crowded mall to stop of crime, I think the majority of Americans will think you're going to far with this.
It's one thing when you put yourself and your own being in danger in private place.
The constitution and the bill of rights does NOT allow you to make that decision for me.
Your preferred course of action, then?
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 9:35am
If some nutjob in a mall starts shooting people, and I'm there with my family, with a holstered handgun, how is my attempt to protect my family from harm violating your rights?
The guy who's already started shooting apparently doesn't give a flying rat's turd about your right to feel safe. His right to open fire in a mall does not take precedent over my right to protect my family.
I'm sorry if you feel otherwise.
Really, really sorry.
Are you going to stake your life on the chances that the police will be there in time. This happened in Utah last year, and the reason the shooting ended when it did was that an off-duty cop happened to be shopping with his wife, and ignored the "No Guns Allowed" sign posted at the mall entrance.
If it makes you feel any better, my response in that situation would be to take cover with my family, and try to get out of there as safely as possible. I'm under no obligation to save you from getting your ass peppered with buckshot. But if cowering in the corner, waiting to be killed makes you feel better, go for it.
I'm all for freedom of choice, regardless of how imbecilic your choice may be.
Me? I'll be in the store's back office with my wife and kids behind a desk, with a 230-grain hollowpoint ready to go out of the business end of my .45 trained on the door.
Not a single "gun nut" I know is out there looking for trouble. If trouble finds us, well, that's another story. You deal with it your way. I'll deal with it in mine.
You mean as strictly as *this* ?
By SgtCarter
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 3:01pm
From the Hooter:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/general/...
"The 15-year-old suspected gangbanger who allegedly shot a Pop Warner football coach in the leg during an afternoon practice this weekend was ordered by a court to be placed under around-the-clock electronic surveillance two weeks ago, but it was never put in place, the Herald has learned.
The Roxbury teen, who is “well-known to police,” according to two law enforcement sources, was in juvenile court Oct. 2 for violating the conditions of his probation in connection with a weapons charge."
Seems we need an Operation Exile in MA, as the desire of the local judicial system to prosecute gun offenders is "almost nonexistant"
This kid should have a Federal jacket by now,
and his lawyer should be arguing that he shouldn't be tried under Federal law as an adult.
Or is this too harsh?
Here's why...
By BrucemB
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 9:21am
OK, I'm going to bed.
By BrucemB
Mon, 10/15/2007 - 10:55pm
I'll check back in the morning to see who has and hasn't answered my questions (Anonymous5) or provided me with the source material to back up some of the ridiculous statements that have been put forth here tonight (SwirlyGrrl, independentminded)?
It's been fun, kids.
Can we all agree that Adam
By PrivateGomerPyle
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:43am
Can we all agree that Adam needs to get some sort of "forum" like postings with a quoted "reply" button
These nested reply's and pages of comments are killing me!
loving the website, hate the comments section!
Yes, please!
By HerrBGone
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 9:59am
I’ll amend a second to that. ;-)
Arms and the Man
By Gareth
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 10:47am
there are a lot of conflicting statistics out there, so I don't want to get into them. But I think there are a few stipulations we can all agree on:
A: If there were no guns, nobody would get shot.
B: There are guns in America – probably more guns than adult Americans.
C. Reducing the number of people getting shot is an important goal.
D: Placing further restrictions on people who already follow all the gun laws is unlikely to greatly reduce death by gunshot.
Now that leaves us with a quandary, which is question one:
1. What would reduce deaths by gunshot?
That’s the question I’d really like to know the answer to, and I’m sure our elected representatives would too.
Now some questions especially for gun owners:
1. Is “arm” a synonym for “gun?”
2. Is “bear” a synonym for “carry?”
3. Is openly carrying a real sword in a public place protected by the 2nd Amendment?
4. Do you oppose your state’s regulations on carrying knives, swords, brass knuckles, etc. on 2nd amendment grounds?
5. Do you believe the 2nd amendment, with it’s right to keep and bear arms, gives the right to all persons, in all settings, to carry any weapon for any purpose?
6. What are the exceptions? Convicted violent criminals? Insane people? Blind people? Children? Airports? Bazookas? Explosive vests?
7. Do you belong to a well-regulated militia?
8. Do you consider that participating in a well-regulated militia, if it should become necessary for the common defense, is part of your responsibility as a gun owner?
Point by Point
By HerrBGone
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:56pm
A: If there were no guns, nobody would get shot.
True, but that Pandora’s box has been opened for centuries. It’s a little late to un-invent firearms now.
B: There are guns in America – probably more guns than adult Americans.
True.
C. Reducing the number of people getting shot is an important goal.
Here’s my suggestion for how to accomplish that goal:
Deterrent: If those who would do the shooting know that they are likely to be shot themselves by and armed citizen they may be less likely to engage in that kind of behavior in the first place.
Incident response: If the criminal is intent on mayhem on a grand scale an armed citizen may be able to significantly reduce the carnage by stopping the person who is causing the problem before they can complete their rampage.
D: Placing further restrictions on people who already follow all the gun laws is unlikely to greatly reduce death by gunshot.
Very true. That is in fact my point.
Now that leaves us with a quandary, which is question one:
1. What would reduce deaths by gunshot?
See answers to C. above.
…
Now some questions especially for gun owners:
1. Is “arm” a synonym for “gun?”
No. From Merriam-Webster’s OnLine Dictionary:
Main Entry:
3arm
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Anglo-French, from Latin arma
Date: 13th century
1 a: a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm
“Arms” as used in the Second Amendment is more inclusive that just firearms.
2. Is “bear” a synonym for “carry?”
Carry, have immediately available in a useable condition and, if necessary, use.
3. Is openly carrying a real sword in a public place protected by the 2nd Amendment?
IMHO, Yes.
4. Do you oppose your state’s regulations on carrying knives, swords, brass knuckles, etc. on 2nd amendment grounds?
Yes.
If a tool can be used by a law abiding citizen for self defense it is unconscionable to deny that citizen the right to poses that tool. Also technology advances and new things are invented all the time. The Founding Fathers recognized that. That is why the Second Amendment does not have a laundry list of specific weapons types that are protected which would exclude any new ones that might be invented in the future.
5. Do you believe the 2nd amendment, with it’s right to keep and bear arms, gives the right to all persons, in all settings, to carry any weapon for any purpose?
5a “all persons”: I would change that to “all law abiding citizens.”
5b “for any purpose”: “Any” is a bit broad and would include such things as robbing banks. I would use a term such as is applied to the Marxistchusets concealed carry permit: “All lawful purposes.” Behaviors such as robbing banks and assaulting people are already illegal and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the weapon (if any) used in their commission.
6. What are the exceptions? Convicted violent criminals? Insane people? Blind people? Children? Airports? Bazookas? Explosive vests?
“Convicted violent criminals” are not law abiding citizens. See my comments under 5a.
“Insane people” probably shouldn’t either. However, if they are fully recovered they should be able to get off the prohibited list.
“Blind people” are actually able to hunt using adaptive technology and working with a guide who does the sighting for them. You may want to check it out. It’s quite interesting!
“Children” Why not if they are properly supervised and trained? Take away the mystery and they are much less likely to be injured or worse by investigating on their own.
“Airports” How many planes would have been commandeered on September 11 if there had been armed citizens on board?
“Bazookas” See definition of Arms above.
“Explosive vests” are not defensive arms. They are weapons of mass destruction of a purely offensive nature and thus not covered.
7. Do you belong to a well-regulated militia?
Immaterial. The militia clause is a separate but equal clause of the overall amendment. Do you have to be employed by a newspaper to exercise your right to freedom of expression under the First Amendment?
From the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling on Parker v. The District of Columbia:
“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient for the Federalists in the First Congress as it served, in part, to placate their Antifederalist opponents. The individual right facilitated militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second Amendment's civic purpose, however, the activities it protects are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual's enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or intermittent enrollment in the militia.” – From page 46 of the Court’s summary.
8. Do you consider that participating in a well-regulated militia, if it should become necessary for the common defense, is part of your responsibility as a gun owner?
Law abiding gun owners work for the common defense whether we are part of an organized militia or not. That is what it means to be a citizen.
Three pages? My apologies for being so long-winded in response. But you did ask…
No apology necessary
By Gareth
Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:32pm
I asked; you answered. Thanks. Extra thanks for the quote from the 5th circuit.
One of the things I wonder about is whether there is any organized group concerned with protecting the second amendment right to bear arms other than guns. The NRA is, as it's name might suggest, interested above all in firearms. But I do not own a firearm and am unlikely to for reasons I don't wish to debate. Let's say simply that I just don't like them terribly much. I have, however, owned other weapons, some frankly illegal, and am much more likely to fall afoul of the law as regards other weapons. Several friends of mine have been charged with weapons violations of what I consider absolutely absurd sorts - such as having (ooh!) double-edged knives, or wearing spikes. I think I'd be happy to see some of the people who frequently wax wroth about gun rights pay the same attention to other arms.
Second, I used the term "persons" for a reason... our founding fathers actually made a distinction between "the people" and "persons." For example, slaves were considered persons in 1789, but their rights were not included in those of the people. They didn't have free speech, free religion, free association... heck, they didn't have freedom. And yet they were persons in America.
There is, and has always been, a distinction in this country between classes of persons as regards civil rights (such as those affirmed by the 2nd amendment). In your answer, you refer to "law-abiding citizens." That's the kind of response I was hoping to provoke. One of the peculiarities of the debate about gun control is that most crimes are committed by... well... criminals. And the real purpose of gun control should be to get these guns out of the hands of the criminals. I think that one thing I'd really like to see from gun rights enthusiasts is suggestions about how to get guns out of the hands of criminals ... besides shooting them out cowboy-style, that is.
(One of the other peculiarities is that most people shot dead by guns were shot by... themselves).
police with guns
By dustydog
Wed, 10/17/2007 - 11:14am
I live in Prince Georges county MD. High school graduates pay about $6 grand, take a 19 week police academy training class (http://www.pg.cc.md.us/pgweb/pgdocs/coned/criminal...), and are eligible to be a cop. And the state police program is 25 weeks(http://recruiting.mdsp.org/training.asp). The pay is crap.
So what is the difference between a cop and a fellow citizen? What aspect of that training makes a cop more trust-worthy to have a gun. If you trust some random guy who took 19 weeks of training to come into your house at night, deal with the intruders, find you, stop your bleeding, call the ambulance, why not trust Bruce as well?
If you trust mall security guards, who haven't even completed 19 weeks of training, to protect you in the food court when the teens decide to rob you, why not trust Bruce who is having lunch at the next table to protect you?
Accountability
By Gareth
Wed, 10/17/2007 - 12:44pm
See, that's the weird thing about some gun enthusiasts. You try to talk about one thing, and all of a sudden they whip out their pet peeve.
And the pet peeves they have! As I asked in another post, why is it so many gun rights enthusiasts seem to hate policemen and want to disparage them? It really disturbs the sense I have, based on my own family and friends, that gun owners are mostly upright, conservative, law-abiding citizens. Personally, I like cops very much. But that's because I'm an upright, law-abiding citizen. I've lived in bad neighborhoods and had trouble with gangs and thugs, and I'm happy to know the boys in blue have my back. Face it: the cops are the good guys. If you think otherwise, you're probably one of the bad guys.
Anyway, even though it's irrelevant to the points at hand, since you asked, I'll answer. What makes police more trustworthy is accountability. They have to fill out several forms every time they pull a gun. Somebody knows where they are at all times. Their bullets are counted every time they come home. That makes them think good and hard before they draw a gun or use it.
Basically, if a cop accidentally shoots me, odds are it'll be clear who it was. If some random guy named Bruce accidentally shoots me because he thinks for some reason I want his gunslinging protection from punk teenagers at a mall food court, he'll probably run off and nobody will know who he was unless they can reconstruct it from the security cameras. He's not filling out any forms; nobody's counting his bullets. He didn't have a badge number or a patrol beat I can check at the station.
I know, I know, any kid in pajamas can dredge up a dozen examples of times a LEO shot someone in an unaccountable manner. But whatever is unaccountable about the way LEOs use their arms goes ten times for random strangers, however well-intentioned they may consider themselves.
Gareth, Have you ever been
By Anonymous
Thu, 10/18/2007 - 2:59pm
Gareth,
Have you ever been shot at? Or been in the presence of somebody firing a gun? You are posting about make-believe. 'If a cop accidentally shoots me' That is vanishingly unlikely. You're more likely to find a winning lottery ticket or get struck by lightning.
And you're more likely to be shot accidentally by a cop than by a citizen, because cops pull their weapons more often in public than citizens.
Most cops are good people. In fact, most people are good people. I believe the average person is trustworthy enough to have a gun. There are a few bad cops (http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,35... ; http://www.reason.com/blog/show/123011.html). But cops don't have a magic aura that makes them better or worse than anyone else.
"Somebody knows where they are at all times. Their bullets are counted every time they come home." This is such unmitigated crap that you must have force-fed crap to pigeons and then force-fed their crap to cockroaches, to get such rarified crap. You have absolutely no idea how government bureaucracies operate. The police lose track of case files, evidence, guns, handcuffs, badges, uniforms, laptop computers, and occasionally police vehicles. They sign a piece of paper vouching for where they were and how many bullets they have. To believe what you believe is to have a religious faith in a human institution.
You claim a fear of paperwork is going to keep the few lazy/stupid/evil cops on the straight-and-narrow? Really? Have you ever seen an police report? Ever, ever? They routinely omit important information. Government documentation in general is spotty and lackisdasical and policing is not an exception.
I was answering a fantasist
By Gareth
Thu, 10/18/2007 - 3:21pm
who asked:
And I was explaining exactly why, despite this fellow's avowed hatred of and perceived superiority to police, I still trust them more than his Bruce to the Rescue. The word stands: Accountability.
You can argue all you like that the accountability of policemen is imperfect. The fact remains that it even exists, which makes it that much superior to the accountability of the random Bruce. Cops have beats, cops have rules, cops have dispatchers, cops have accountability. Sure, a bad cop could beat it. But arguing that because a bad cop could beat it it doesn't exist is poor logic. Arguing that I'm better off trusting the random stranger, whose accountability begins at nil and increases to the degree he can be identified by witnesses, is simply bizarre.
As to your question, I have:
-been shot at, or in the general direction of (I don't think he intended to hit me but to scare me)
-been with someone who shot a gun
-been with a civilian who used a gun to apprehend a criminal
-held a gun
-shot a gun
-got in an argument with somebody who pulled a gun on me
-made him put it back away again
I have also
-been assaulted
-been arrested
-had someone else arrested
And none of these things make me think I should trust some random guy named Bruce more than my local police officers - or even the rent-a-cops at the mall food court.
I know you troll around this board looking to argue with someone, but really you should find a better outlet for your blather.
Look. It’s not about
By HerrBGone
Thu, 10/18/2007 - 5:22pm
Look. It’s not about trusting Bruce or me or the equally random cop. It’s about trusting yourself and being about to protect yourself by yourself from all of the above if needed. The Second Amendment is all about individual responsibility for our own security, as well as the nations. The Second codifies into law at the highest level our individual right to defend ourselves.
Stop farming out your personal safety!
It’s not Bruce’s responsibility to protect you. It’s not mine, and incase you haven’t heard, the Supreme Court has established that it is not the police’s responsibility either. It is the responsibility of each and every one of us to protect ourselves! And the Second Amendment guarantees us the right to own and to have available to us in a usable condition the tools that we need to do that.
You abdicate that responsibility at your own peril.
Frik’n auto replace!
By HerrBGone
Thu, 10/18/2007 - 5:27pm
That should have read: “being able to”
I’m sure you figured that out. * grumble grumble Microsoft grumble! *
more likely to be shot by a cop than a citizen?
By David
Wed, 10/24/2007 - 6:46am
more likely to be shot by a cop than a citizen? really? if you mean by a law abiding citizen (just because you are a citizen doesn't mean you obey the law, i know this seems like a dumb comment but seeing as how i don't know how you are using the term, i felt a need to clarify) then you are probably right, as cops do draw their weapons more often. however if you mean any resident of the united states, then you are sadly mistaken. take into consideration gun violence from gangs, people who snap and shoot up schools, etc. not to mention the fact that cops don't generally go around firing their weapon for little to no reason, as the types of people i mention before hand do (not i said typically, i know that cops have abused their power before, as well as out right broke in peices the laws they swore to uphold) i don't have any stats to back this up, but i think most people will agree with me here. this may seem like something trivial to harp on, however, be careful about what "facts" you throw around. a lot of people throw around such miscontrued facts to win arguments on such issues as gun control and sadly, the majority of the people whom these laws affect aren't the wiser (we don't have the brightest population in the world). regardless of whether done purposefully or not, misinformation still does its damage in anything from our history books to the daily news we recieve and unless someone the record straight, it has a chance to be lost entirely. oh and if any part of this doesn't make sense, i apologize but its almost 6am and i'm a bit tired (not to mention i have to be up in like 45 min anyways, damn this message board).
actually
By David
Wed, 10/24/2007 - 6:55am
i think i'll skip my morning classes and get some much needed sleep. i do hope this debate continues however as i have enjoyed just reading both pages of this. not to mention the mental stimulation is nice (however it would be nice if alot of the left wingers out there would do more than regurgitate the same, weak arguments).
Good idea!
By HerrBGone
Fri, 10/19/2007 - 1:18pm
"One of the things I wonder about is whether there is any organized group concerned with protecting the second amendment right to bear arms other than guns."
Start one! Every group, however large and well known they may be today, started with an idea in the head of an individual. What’s to say that your idea is any less valid than any other that has an established organization behind it today?
Pages