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Why ruin another holiday?
I guess I'm old fashioned, but I wonder why this needs to be. Christmas sales and items start right after Halloween. We just skip over Veterans Day, why not Thanksgiving? Business people say they won't force people to work on Thanksgiving. I have a hard time believing this. Maybe at first, but down the road people will be forced or else. Enough already.
Agreed. While I get that some
Agreed. While I get that some people don't celebrate these holidays or are happy to make the extra money, some people are forced to work and miss out on time spent with family that they don't get to see very often. This shop till you drop trend that retailers are pushing has gone too far. If we didn't have little kids in our extended family, we'd scale way back on Christmas shopping. It's ruining the spirit of the holidays.
In one word
PROFITS! In a thousand words - PROFITS, PROFITS, PROFITS, PROFITS, PROFITS .......... PROFITS! And this isn't going to change as long as the tinhat brigade continues to obsess over imagined big government intrusion into our lives without realizing that the actual intrusion into our lives by the corporations and their marketing executives is far worse.
It's actually both
And progressives need to come to terms with that.
Like the checks and balances of the branches of Government; Government is supposed to be a check on Business, and vice versa. Unfortunately were in a period of plutocracy where they're both ganging up to reap rewards on the majority of citizens backs.
For once this state is doing
For once this state is doing the right thing! Probably only because the propper pols haven't been greased. Our holidays are part of our culture. They are part of what unites us. We all deserve to have them off. Even what some people may consider the lowly serfs in retail. Personally I do not shop on Holidays.
Glad I Live In MA
Soulless, heartless, greedy fucks like K-Mart, Macy's and Kohl's can't just ignore Thanksgiving. Our retail workers get an actual day off in this state, as it should be.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Thats
Not very libertarian of you Sul. Guess we all have a little protestant puritanism in us still though, kinda goes with the territory.
Many Types
Yeah, I guess so.
Just as there are fiscally-conservative Democrats and socially-liberal Republicans, there are also different sorts of Libertarians. Some are basically anarchists, some are not. We aren't all marching in lockstep. If we were, that wouldn't be very libertarian, either :-)
The law in this case works for what I believe in. I'm happy it does. What else can I say? Mea Culpa [*beats breast a few times*]
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Tis not the season
All this Christmas music and Christmas lighting and Christmas greed beginning (in earnest) in October spoils any special feeling that used to come with the season because having three, four months of it takes that away. Four months equals no longer special. And Thanksgiving is just lost.
My point is, the shopping season starts the day after Santa goes by in his sleigh at the end of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Which is quite appropriate for the retail part.
But the marketing people insist on destroying the rest of it for us, too. I'm already sick of the carols I used to love.
I'm waiting for the ad where baby Jesus gets out of the nativity and demands something from LeapFrog for his birthday.
Someone here was bemoaning the loss of Kresge's the other day. It's not gone. Kresge's is K-Mart, one of the most shameless of too-goddamned-early Christmas advertisers.
It's gotten ridiculous
I agree--the special feeling of the Christmas gets lost when it's so over hyped. I feel like it gets worse and worse every year. Really noticed it recently when the Wellington Dunks put up ads for Christmas festive donuts as well as actual Christmas decorations 3 days before Halloween. Seriously? You couldn't even wait til the stupid calendar said November, never mind the day after Thanksgiving?
But--I guess I should enjoy all the Christmas buzz while it lasts because in a few weeks, they'll be putting out Valentine's Day candy alongside the wreaths and ornaments...
Honest to God
You want to talk about the real war on Christmas? It's our Consumerism thats replaced Capitalism.
Something tells me Jesus wouldn't approve.
heh
I'm somehow a Burkean Conservative that identifies in the 21st century as progressive. Go figure.
Days off are all well and good...
...but I think it's important to note that for 99.9% of retail workers -- and a significant number of temp, contract, or hourly workers in general -- a day off means a day without pay, and a significantly reduced paycheck.
For salary workers, paid holidays (not to mention vacation time) might be wonderful, culture-affirming, family-bonding experiences. But for people living paycheck to paycheck, it could be a real hardship.
That is a good point, and
That is a good point, and that is exactly what my work situation (until I escape to grad school) has been like between temping and the crappy service job I have. I actually ended up working last Thanksgiving and Christmas. It sucked and the overtime wasn't worth it. I'm still looking forward to having both days off this year, though my pay will be a bit lower.
Good
Adam
Think the image parsing code needs to be checked, doesn't seem to be working right...
Meh..
Per sentiment... we don't need another day people stressing, freaking out and completely missing the point of Thanksgiving and the Holidays suppose to be about.
Why not Thanksgiving
The blue laws require retailers to pay time-and-a-half to workers on holidays (and Sundays), and have a voluntariness requirement - employees can't be required to work on those days.
If Joe and Jane Employee voluntarily choose to work on Thanksgiving and get some overtime; if the store wants to be open; and if consumers want to shop, why not let em?
http://www.mass.gov/lwd/labor-standards/dls/mass-blue-laws/overview.html
Because
It’s not really voluntary. let's not pretend it is. We still have issues here in the 21st century with big box chains not paying their workers for time worked. And you don’t think they’ll make them work on days they decide they need to be open?
?
How do you know? If I were 23 and working at Best Buy part-time while in college, I'd jump at the chance to work extra hours at time and a half.
Part-time?
Does that time and a half on Sundays & holidays really apply to part-time employees? If so, that's a more-or-less recent change in the laws - it was not the case when I was a part-timer in the 1970s and 80s.
I think that it does not, or
I think that it does not, or it did and now the law has changed. Also, I thought Sundays were time and a half, and holidays were actually double time and a half. I remember back in the 80s talking to a clerk in a shoe store on a Sunday and she said that she loved working Sundays because it got her out of the house and it was time and a half.
Meanwhile, when I had a very part-time job in high school in the early 90s, I sometimes worked Sundays. Now that I think about it, I know that I didn't get time and a half.
Those laws may be in place,
Those laws may be in place, but there are a million exceptions. I worked in retail for many years and they somehow never applied to me.
I currently work a part-time
I currently work a part-time job and holidays are the only days I got time and a half. Not on Sundays.
[Citation needed]
"We still have issues here in the 21st century with big box chains not paying their workers for time worked"
Like when? Where? This tired old trope is trotted out often, but has largely died down since the late 90s.
Upper Crust, Whole Foods
Upper Crust
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2012/11/07/upper-crust-pizza-chain-o...
Wal Mart
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-05-01/business/35456265_1_wal-ma...
I hosie Upper Crust doesn't
I hosie Upper Crust doesn't count. Their whole management was illegal....
Walmart
Again: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-57537524/
"voluntary" vs. "involuntary"
how can you say that when the law states it is "voluntary" in plain english, it's actually "involuntary?" that's manipulative.
sure, maybe it's a state of "i don't really have a choice because i need to pay bills." but that's what the point of T+1/2 is supposed to do - separate the people who truly need to work and those who don't.
these labor laws exist in such a way that if it really ISN'T voluntary, you can hire a labor lawyer to defend you against your company. i've worked for several retailers who try to twist it, because it happens, but i don't see why any of you need to make any defenses unless you're the one behind the register on these really shitty days to work.
People get fired if they don't
That's involuntary.
Most people can't just afford to "hire a labor lawyer" blah blah blah. Unions can, but that's why employers don't pull this shit in union shops.
There were people in the Ocean State Job Lot in Medford asking employees why they were working on Thanksgiving - and the vast majority cited likely retaliation if they didn't.
That's involuntary.
Filene's had mandatory union
Filene's had mandatory union membership deducted from your often shortened minimum wage paycheck. Guess what? It was still "screw you, get to work or your fired" on holidays.
Filene's? When were they
Filene's? When were they opened on a holiday?
In the final years of
In the final years of operation they were competitively open with all other department stores. You worked up to Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, and the day thereafter EARLY unless you wanted to get fired. I never once met my 'union' rep despite having dues deducted. Worst retail job I ever had.
THere's no Thanksgiving Eve
THere's no Thanksgiving Eve holiday and Christmas Eve is not a holiday. They did close early, I remember. Earler than stores these days.
Ocean State Job Lot?
if the state law says that no big stores can be open on Thanksgiving, how can they be an exception?
disagree
"Most people can't just afford to "hire a labor lawyer" blah blah blah."
There are dozens of hungry attorneys in the Commonwealth who'd love to take such an open-and-shut case on contingency. Or the employee could go to the AG for free about blue-laws violations.
Plenty of states have toothless labor laws (or none at all), MA ain't one of em.
Hell
Hell, most people in minimum wage retail are on state welfare to supplement their income. We're basically paying corporations on the back end to pay out higher dividends.
It's what gets me about minimum wage opponents, because they're also typically anti-welfare state. You can't have both, unless you want to drag this country back to the 19th century that sucked for 90% of the population. Plus the facts have shown time and again that age hikes don't reduce employment, but bolster it. Economics isn't zero sum, and people in a local economy with money to spend is a good thing.
More Subtle
Because in some stores, if you're not willing to volunteer to work on what would be a super busy day, you wouldn't be a team player. So in the future you don't get the best shifts or you can't take a vacation day because someone else asked first or you don't get considered for a promotion.
Discrimination is subtle
Discrimination can be subtle, under the guise of "this is when we are busy" or "you need to be a team player."
Case in point - there was a time when I was under/unemployed between grad school and professional gigs. I was applying to retail chains for work. I noted my schedule availability on applications and was continually asked why I couldn't work Friday nights or Saturday before sundown. I told them I observed the sabbath, being Jewish. I was not hired for many of these positions, in my opinion, because I would not work on Saturdays.
Did I think this is discrimination? Sure. Can I prove it? No.
The Commonwealth was sued some years ago
Seems they had some managers at the dog tracks who didn't understand the concept of Christmas = religious holiday. They demanded a worker come in to work on Christmas, she refused (very active in her Church it turns out ...) and was fired and sued. Not sure how it turned out.
It is absolutely not voluntary
These companies put an all-hands-on-deck call out. I have a lower-income family friend in NY who works retail as she has few other options for employment, and they basically say "Everyone has to be on on Thanksgiving at X time, no one may take off." If you do not go, you are fired.
When I managed lifeguards at a Boston-area gym, we only had 2-3 shifts on most holidays, so I used to schedule on a volunteer basis for those days. My boss got mad at me and said that I wasn't allowed to do that- that I should just schedule the normal people for that day, and tell them they had to be there or they'd be fired. He even thought we should force our dorm-living college kids to pay for hotel rooms to work Thanksgiving weekend when their dorms closed, and fire them if they wouldn't. He didn't understand that it was easier to pass the holiday off to the people who wanted the extra hours...
The stores wouldn't open
If people didn't want to go there to shop. It's society's collective fault that these holiday hours keep creeping earlier every year. I'd rather enjoy my long holiday weekend and pay $25 more for a Blue Ray player later. But if people continue to camp outside a mall waiting for a midnight opening,the stores will continue to oblige them. If everyone would agree to wait until 9am on Friday to shop, the deals would still be there;but they wont.
Society?
Or a bunch of corporations that have successfully created a culture where our most beloved national holiday is now just a pre-amble to a crass shopping frenzy. When did "Black Friday" even become a thing? Why does every media outlet treat it as if it's some revered, ancient ritual? I have some libertarian tendencies myself but when "freedom" is driven entirely by big business (forcing small businesses to scramble hopelessly to keep up) then I find myself grateful for the puritans and their ilk.
Most beloved national holiday?
There are Red Sox Truck Day sales?
Big things have small beginnings
Funny enough thats another local tradition hijacked by our local media.
I hear what you're saying
If TV commercials are to be believed, we should all find a white Audi,Lexus,or Mercedes in the driveway Christmas morning,with a giant red bow. Otherwise,we are somehow lacking. Corporations will try to make money however they can, and have been co-opting holidays for years to do it. We,as consumers,don't have to go along with it. But most do. The sad thing is that many of the people that complain about working on Thanksgiving, would probably be waiting in line outside of the stores if they didn't have to work.
Oh no
Why'd ya have to make me think of this horrid ad: http://www.obscurecraft.net/obscureblog/2008/12/th...
Why I love MA
If just one worker gets to enjoy thanksgiving with their family as opposed to selling crap at k-mart or walmart then this is a win. I'm all for capitalism but let's observe our holidays please
I think this is wonderful.
I think this is wonderful.
Didn't realize
How many retail workers read UHub!
I don't but
My SO does--not on thanksgiving, thank goodness but he'll be at work at the crack of dawn on Friday. Retail, restaurant or hospitality jobs, and obv anyone who works in a hospital, nursing home, police, fire...not everyone gets the day off but I hate the idea of forcing people to work to enable the idiotic Black Friday feeding frenzy.
Meanwhile
Costco is closed on major holidays, has limited hours on weekends and many holidays ... and seems to be doing just fine.
Makes it tough to make the case that people NEED to shop on Thanksgiving ... if that were true, why so many uber super sales to entice people?
Costco
I would like to support such a (relatively) good employer -- but I don't think we need to buy stuff in bulk quantities (whih seems to be its specialty).
We're in peak bulk buying "season"
With two teen boys racing to see who gets to their father's height first, well, yeah we do Costco. They can make an entire wholesale club bag of chips and vat of salsa vanish in no time if friends follow them home from school. Eight eggs for breakfast is not uncommon, either.
Most of the younger one's clothes come from there, too. Can't beat $23 Levis.
But I hear ya ... there will soon come a time when we aren't buying so much there. The point stands, however, that they manage to treat employees quite well, don't open on a lot of holidays, don't stay open late on weekends, welcomed the union as an HR subcontractor of sorts, and still consistently do well in the marketplace.
Target is starting to catch on.
I do like the fact that Costco seems to be....
... more profitable than similar chains that treat both employees and customers worse.
Costco has lots of stuff
It's not just industrial sized jars of peanut butter anymore. Personally, I enjoy the Costco liquor store - which you don't need a membership to patronize, by the way.
I guess we should...
... check it out someday.
Well if Cosco's closed where
Well if Cosco's closed where else will people go? Imagine if you walked into the kitchen and the dog was licking the Turkey, and now you couldn't go out and buy another one. There is a purpose for everything, including stores open on Thanksgiving, believe it or not.
No.
If we were talking about grocery stores or pharmacies, you might have a point. But these stores aren't thoughtfully staying open for when you have an emergency - no, they're luring in long lines of people in to buy "deal buster" DVD players and video games. If stores were only open for regular business on Thanksgiving, getting actual volunteers (not "volunteers") to work would probably not be a problem. But the reason it's such a shit show for retail workers is because stores have positioned themselves to incite a mad rush of foaming-at-the-mouth shoppers and need everyone, not just the people who don't celebrate or would like some extra cash, to work on what for most people is a family holiday.
I was once one of those
I was once one of those workers and it wasn't so bad. I got double time and people gave me lots of tips. And I didn't have to see my weird aunt.
Thanksgiving
If I came into the kitchen and the dog was licking the turkey, well then, I guess we're eating mashed potatoes, pumpkin pie, stuffing and cranberry sauce for dinner. It's also a good time to remember that Thanksgiving is about family and being thankful for what you DO have. If you can't have an enjoyable holiday without a turkey, then your problems are much grander than having to find an open store.
I bet my dog would say he had a pretty awesome thanksgiving though.
%$@&! BUMPUSSES!
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPRdj1Ce4ao
Well, then you'd just have to go out for dinner. Like, maybe Chinese food?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTq20prt0K8
Supermarkets and restaurants are open
but this isn't talking about those businesses..
I actually don't have a problem, in theory, with stores being open on Thanksgiving. Not everyone has a family close by to be with, or a family at all and if they want to spend the day working or shopping, fine by me. But the reality often is that employees don't truly have a choice on whether or not they work the holiday. If not enough people want to come in to work that day, they aren't going to just close.
The war on the worker
Good to see someone getting a day off! How soon will it be before the Herald/Fox/etc. types decry it as an affront to the free market system? I always see serious irony in the way the conservatives ignore issues such as this. They'll go on and on about the "war on Christmas" but never about the war on the American worker, who loses holidays right and left. How about standing up for them? Why no outcry when an American worker has to work on Thanksgiving, The 4th of July, Veterans day, etc?
I'd even say labor day, but then, of course, that's a socialist holiday.
Really, this is political? I
Really, this is political? I remember my dad, who worked retail his whole life, being very upset when Massachusetts first allowed stores to open on Sundays. Sunday was a day of family and rest for him and his employees. He was in the minority, obviously. We weren't allowed to shop on Sunday's at my house, or work. We managed just fine. He saw this day coming, and that was over 30 years ago.
I regret that politics seems to creep into everything, even things that really aren't political.
I'd like to add the MA Blue
I'd like to add the MA Blue Laws have a religious background to them. I thought those conservatives/fox news/ etc were bible thumpers, no? If the conservatives are the backward religious idiots, doesn't that go against your "theory"?
Good
Catholic and Protestant values to boot.
Not that new age prosperity Gospel shit they teach down south, that would make Jesus weep.
Boston Herald
I can't speak for the other entities, but I know for a fact that the Herald will be presenting my op-ed on the subject of Thanksgiving shopping, probably this weekend, and I can absolutely guarantee you it is pro-worker.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
I should point out that the
I should point out that the Herald comments seems to be positive citing it is good this is being kept and allowing people to spend time with family. If you know are going to claim you know how the Herald/Fox/insert-embodiment-of-conservative, at least check what they are saying. If you're are following the advice to don't read the Herald comments, this just became an example of making assumptions of your own personal view of subsets of people.
Actually, there's an interesting observation in that. If you had look at Conservative sources and Liberal sources both are large decrying how retail are encroaching Thanksgiving. Both are saying things that basically being said here. But I do notice an irony, while it is not seen in currently 15 comments of the Herald. I do recall in other articles on other sites, both sides doesn't seem to be aware the other side of the political spectrum are in agreement. Kinda this comment I am responding believing Conservative commentators of the Herald are decrying this as a violation of Free Markets while they are actually writing things like (with +8 thumbs up) "Well, in my humble opinion it's about time we step back and relax for two days..."
Yaaay!
I am very happy to hear this.