MassLive reports the T is on the verge of a $723-million deal to replace the current CharlieCard system with a newer system that will let riders pay by tapping their phones or credit cards rather than plastic cards. And it'll work on commuter rail, too, and let riders board buses and trolleys through the rear doors.
Oh, don't worry, there'll still be cards for the phoneless, but they'll cost $5 apiece.
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"And it'll work on commuter
By J
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:36am
"And it'll work on commuter rail, too, and let riders board buses and trolleys through the rear doors."
All of this is possible with Charlie, and was promised as such.
"l let riders pay by tapping their phones or credit cards rather than plastic cards"
Great, more of our fares going straight to Mastercard and Visa!
i see a couple of problems worth trying to address
By Anonymous
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:44am
Exactly
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:56am
My kids have charlie cards and they refill them with cash because they are not old enough to have credit cards.
Duh.
They also have friends who don't have credit cards because they are in college.
Duh.
Really?
By bgl
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:52pm
Someone in college who doesn't have a bank/debit card at least?
If each plastic card costs
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:11am
If each plastic card costs the MBTA $5, then they should charge riders $5.
Okay then
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:30am
We should also be charging the full cost of a driver's license.
Why don't you be the first to
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:49am
Why don't you be the first to volunteer to pay what you perceive the full price of your driver's license to be then? ...didn't think so.
Administrative costs are different
By Waquiot
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:59am
Do you really think the RMV spends $50 every time I renew my license electronically? Or that they expend $60 every time I renew my registration electronically? At least for the former there is plastic to be created and sent out.
No, the Registry of Motor Vehicles is not revenue neutral. It makes money for the Commonwealth. Save your outrage for the gas tax.
There shouldn't be a $5.00
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:34pm
There shouldn't be a $5.00 surcharge to use a method of payment. It is a cost the MBTA is proposing so build it into the T fare.
Customers aren't demanding a new method of payment nor are customers saying disallow riders to pay with US currency. This is all a plan that allegedly delivers benefits to riders. Riders get their say.
So drivers licenses should be free?
By Waquiot
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:57pm
I mean, you were comparing the two (assuming you are the original anon.)
Similar systems have been put into place in other cities. It costs a buck to get a ticket to ride the New York City subway, and that's a fare collection system a lot less complex than what is proposed.
i don't see any useful
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 1:40pm
i don't see any useful comparison of how the state charges for driver's license versus a new T fare payment system.
The RMV already overcharges
By tk
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:04pm
The RMV already overcharges fees based on expenses. (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/03/07/i-team-mass-...)
I agree
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:44am
Adding a cost to the card, prevents people from hoarding cards just because they are free. If you pay for a card, you're more likely going to take care of it and not lose it.
And again, if you read the article, you'll see it will allow your card to 100% managed online. Something you can't do right now.
I agree that free = waste.
By J
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:07am
I agree that free = waste.
So charge $1. Not $5,
What will the new system let you do online that the current one doesnt?
If you only ride buses, you
By Saul
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:11am
If you only ride buses, you cannot add value online, since the updated balance is only reflected when you tap at a subway gate:
Good to know theres this odd
By J
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:17am
Good to know theres this odd limitation.
There's more
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 1:01pm
The account management of the current system is very limited. VERY. You can pretty much only add value. Can't check balance. Can't transfer to a new card. Can't track where you went. You can't do jack with it.
It seems like "online" was an after thought.
And my apologizes if they updated this... it's been a very long time since I bothered to look at my charlie card account (with the exception of registering it), and since you can't do much with it, I gave up.
"They" know where you were
By InTheKnow
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 1:47pm
A friend of mine retired from the T has advised me that an operator that takes the time to learn and understand the current system can actually track you right at the fare box on a bus.
One time he had a passenger and they forgot some fo the places they were and wondered why their card ran out. He was able to look up the places they were, i.e. stations and buses boarded. When completed, the person was relieved that they now knew where their fare monies went.
That said, most drivers only learn enough to get you on and off.
So the T does in fact have an idea of where you have been and on what date and time. That said, they can make certain assumptions of where you were going, or when you made a one-way trip someplace but clearly got a ride back.
I never said
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 7:19pm
that the T didn't know. They do, it was a big deal when the AFC 1.0 came out.
What I am talking about is bringing this data to the end user, not to T employees. They already do that (and yes, I've seen them do that at a fare machine)
I HATE this problem. My
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 2:36pm
I HATE this problem. My commute from home to work is bus only - actually going away from the nearest T station - so every month I have to make a special trip just to get my new pass, even though I paid for it online.
If the new system eliminates that I'm already on board.
Most cities
By poster
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:35am
charge for their card. The San Francisco Bay Area's Clipper card for BART/MUNI/Caltrain is $3, Atlanta's MARTA Breeze card is $2, the DC Metro's SmarTrip card is $2, and Chicago's L's Ventra card is $5.
The phone pay concerns me just a tiny bit with regards to smartphone snatchings, but I understand those rapidly decreased a few years back when Apple and Google added a remote-brick option for stolen phones.
yup
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:46pm
But if you read the article, everything will be moved online so if you lose your phone, you can probably deactivate it on your phone and still keep the balance and transfer it to a new card or phone.
This is how it works in Chiacgo.
By your logic, then MassDOT should be charging
By roadman
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 4:47pm
everyone who gets an E-ZPass transponder $28.77 (or whatever the manufacturer charges these days) instead of giving them away for free.
Future
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:43am
If you bother to read the article, you'll see that the company that will bring this to us is not the MBTA, but a private company that already does this for Chicago MTA and the NYMTA.
Cashless is becoming more and more prevalent. It actually saves the agency a ton of money, as moving cash.. like emptying fareboxes on the boxes and what not is a very costly, and time consuming task.
It's coming folks.. get used to it.
Off topic, slightly
By ElizaLeila
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:53am
So the parking people, VPNE, have equipment that says my debit card is not a valid form of payment. This has happened at both BWH and Prudential garage. No place else. I tell them I have no other method of payment save cash. I'm happy to sit there and annoy all other drivers until someone from the office rides their golf cart over to accept my cash. And don't tell me I must not have enough $ in my account because that's absolutely not true.
Whoever is creating the programming should learn how to make all credit and debit cards work.
imagine
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:38pm
Imagine policy solutions like payment systems on highways or public transit says you cannot pay for services with US currency.
As long as I can buy a card
By Super Bee
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:00pm
As long as I can buy a card and load it with cash value, that's okay with me.
Shit they'll just advertise to me like they do at S. Station. I'll pay to get rid of that visual and noise pollution.
Um, if not maybe not take the (T) and they can get used to that?
Rolling-over compliance is the same as get used to it.
Not always my style.
Can't wait until someone hacks it and it's free rides for a few hours.
Then again, I have paid tickets for the train and they cannot even manage to collect those. I guess if a card/phone reader does it, then that's better for the (T)? Can't wait for the inevitable crash when there's too few personnel onboard.
How petty can you be?
By Subway Rob
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 1:56pm
Many people who use the MBTA are (understandably) always throwing their opinions around about how the system doesn't "work" for its riders...one facet of this usually involving the current multi-component/non-unified fare collection system, and how it fails on a number of points.
This plan appears to be aimed at overhauling the fare system in ways that BENEFIT RIDERS. Tired of non-verified riders taking the Commuter Rail for free? This will address that. Tired of single-door boarding on the Green Line or buses? This will address that. Tired of paying in one format for Commuter Rail and another format for Bus/Subway? This will address that. Tired of squeezing through a fare gate with a piece of luggage/shopping bags? This will address that.
With all that (and I'm certain, additional benefits as well), you want to put focus on the new fare card costing $5? FIVE DOLLARS? After the T has blown nearly (an estimated) $18 MILLION on free CharlieCards for the 1st Generation fare system, do you think it'd be wise to repeat the same expense? I sure don't.
Aside from that, nobody is forcing you to pay for a $5.00 fare card...the article clearly states, "Use any media: fare card, mobile phone or contactless credit card." You have a smart phone? Use that. You have a tap-enabled credit card? Use that. If you have neither, consider the $5.00 fare card cost, a "convenience fee", because you'd be foolish to think it's a good idea for the MBTA to consider cash payment anywhere. As it is, most of the fumbling I see at the current fare machines is the same fumbling I remember seeing as a kid when tokens were still being used...attributed to finding cash to pay for your fare media.
I've had the same plastic
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 2:57pm
I've had the same plastic charlie card since early 2009, when moving here. Commuting twice a day, nearly every day since then - four thousand odd trips.... .125 of a cent per trip.
I think you have a good point
By RhoninFire
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 3:00pm
I think you have a good point here. I think a lot of the griping is that the current Charlie Cards was promised and suppose to able to do many of what is current its shortcomings. In terms of technology, it makes no sense to change the system when we know the system can do it and the MBTA just refused to use it.
But at the same time, one thing I think is overlooked that says you have a point with a new system, is while the current system can do it, we are blocked by bad specifications. It's all proprietary and to go back to the old vendor is prohibitively expensive. Thus I guess it is cheaper to just change to a whole new system to upgrade our current one.
Use any media?
By Super Bee
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:02pm
Use any media?
Um, how about verified paper?
commuter rail
By Saul
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:45am
https://www.mbta.com/news/1422
Press release from December 6, 2006:
when you pay for a charlie
By js
Wed, 12/19/2018 - 8:02am
when you pay for a charlie card with a credit card, then MC and Visa get the same cut. there is no difference
Slightly less pathetic?
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:43am
It's quite pathetic that I have much more control over management of my Dunkin' or Starbucks card than I do over the cards for a public service. Can't merge/manage balances, cards expire way too frequently and require a trip to Downtown to deal with it, can't manage special cards (I have two student with cards) online, when you refill online takes until the next morning and then only works if you go to a fare machine or subway entrance but not on buses. I guess this change will address some of these problems (although how do they deal with student IDs if you're just tapping a credit card?) but really they should have worked from the beginning. And, as always, this so-called "upgrade" includes another tax on the poor.
The fact that I can't take
By cden4
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 2:02pm
The fact that I can't take multiple CharlieTickets and transfer the balance to a CharlieCard (or even to a single CharlieTicket) at a fare machine is ridiculous.
The fact that a Charlie
By Kay Dick
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:09pm
The fact that a Charlie Ticket costs 33% more than a Charlie Card fare is bullshit. The $5 fee is similar.
There is no law requiring mandatory smartphone or credit card ownership.
This is a public utility. Too bad.
That means everybody should have access, not just electric sheep.
It's the usual government-supplier ploy
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:49am
of taking a system that works perfectly fine and then replacing it with a newer but completely unnecessary system that purports to increase efficiency by a couple of percent at a cost of several hundred million.
The systems suppliers (and useless third-party providers such as Apple Pay, Samsung Pay, etc.) probably had to line more than a few pockets in order to convince the board to try to pull this one over on the public.
Also, the suppliers did a nice job of disguising the issue of rear-door kiosks as a function of payment type.
The current Charlie system
By Saul
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 9:55am
The current Charlie system does not work perfectly fine, especially if you ride the commuter rail.
Because of management
By J
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:10am
Because of management decisions, not because of the technology.
Clueless, Table of 1
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:58pm
Shows how much you know about Credit Card payment processors these days... Pretty much all payment processors now support contactless payments. It's up to the PoS system (point of sale) to support the contactless card.
Apple and Samsung have very little to do with this, with the exception of getting credit card companies (and debit card makers) to allow their technology to be used with their chip cards.
And There's NOTHING good about the current system. NOTHING.
NOTHING?
By Kay Dick
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:12pm
NOTHING?
Than how do I manage to use the MBTA so readily with the current system? Huh.
Frankly, I liked the deal where you got a free passage through the turnstyle, for every ten-pack of tokens.
Only in Massachusetts does it
By Tyler
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:11am
Only in Massachusetts does it cost nearly a billion dollars to install a bunch of NFC readers.
its
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:45am
It's an entirely new system pretty much. Not just a new card strike contacts.
New gates, new machines, new software, new website.. new new new new new!
To replace equipment that is
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:22am
To replace equipment that is 10 years old, that previously replaced equipment that was 40+years old.
Why New
By BostonDog
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:17pm
The fare gates themselves seem fine. Surely it would be cheaper to upgrade the electronics instead of replacing the whole thing. The new fare gates look like they'd be even easier to jump over or trigger without paying.
They speak of the new system being able to handle exit fares which is surprising as it's not something which has been publicly discussed.
I'm curious about the Proof of payment option for the CR. Why not start doing that today?
Actually, some have problems.
By whyaduck
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:39pm
The Red Line/Silver Line gates at South Station have a lot of issues with correctly functioning although I do not know if it is the gates or the cards. You swipe your card and you get "see agent" or "please try again" too often. Also happens at Kendall Square.
really?
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:55pm
No, they are not fine. The faregates at Wood Island have been broken for month. T tells me they are 'out of parts'. This is VERY common with the current AFC system.. you can't get parts for it anymore. The faregates are also PC's running Windows XP.. an 15 year old OS.
As I said below, I'll say it here too. Part of this project is to outsource everything to another company. They will be responsible for its upkeep and operation. Not the T.
You realize theyre giving the
By J
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 1:33pm
You realize theyre giving the contract to the same company right?
False
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 7:23pm
Citation Please.
And the current system may have been installed by a vendor, but it is currently managed by the T. The new contract, like most of bakers privatization contractors, will 100% handover the operation to that company.
Many of the current problems with AFC 1.0 have to do with the T itself, not the technology. The T needed to implement features they told us that were coming when we dumped tokens... most of them were never implemented due to cost.
It is not the same company.
By anon
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 5:39am
It is not the same company.
I take it you're the same "jass" poster vomiting all these same debunked misinfo and Hottest-of-Takez all over the ArchBoston thread on this while resorting to poo-flinging at anyone who calls you out on your shaky command of facts, correct?
It doesn't matter how many forums you simulcast this or other BS claims to amplify your precast rant against T management...it's as wrong as it was the first time.
"The vending machines will
By nathanw
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:27am
"The vending machines will dispense fare cards"
Yay, fixing one of the dumber aspects of the current system - actually getting your hands on a CharlieCard.
I got my hands on plenty of
By Kay Dick
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:19pm
I got my hands on plenty of them! Of course if the machines that service the cards don't have blanks and require employees to stand around passing them out and teaching people how to use the machine (another cost and DELAY of the ATC) then that's pretty stupid.
Try the stores?
Haven't I been hearing a lot about
By UHub-fan
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:32am
how the T is financially strapped? I mean, coulda sworn I heard they don't have enough money for things like maintenance and stuff...
I bet hackers can't wait for
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:43am
I bet hackers can't wait for this system to start. I'd rather ride a bike.
uh
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:47pm
They'd be more incline to hack the current system....
Fare Gates & vending machines = Windows XP
Servers in Stations (db servers) = Windows Server 2003
hooray for outdated technology!
Just look up
By bgl
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:56pm
the MIT DEFCON presentation on the MBTA from years ago to see how secure the current system is.
Will you automatically get a
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:45am
Will you automatically get a receipt when you tap your credit card?
Tokens
By ElizaLeila
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 10:55am
Go back to the tokens!
$723 million?
By Hugo
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:24am
Granted the current Charlie Card system is not perfect, but its okay.
As cash-strapped as the T is these days, why not use the $723 million for station improvements, track improvements, signal improvements etc...
It's a perfectly legitimate
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:48pm
It's a perfectly legitimate question about priorities that starts with a financial analysis of new revenue collection vs old, and including cost savings if any and capitalizing the $723 million including debt service. i cannot imagine that on a cost basis it makes any sense at all.
No
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:53pm
No, it's horribly out of date and virtually not supported any more. There's a long list of things that is wrong with AFC 1.0 (current system).. I could be here for days.
Everyone on this thread is missing one key point. (except Ari O.. he got it)
This whole project is to farm fare collection out to a private company. Currently it is done in house. By farming it out to another company, they become responsible for the maintenance of the system, not the T.
Not that I am a fan of doing so, but it has worked out for Chicago and the NY MTA. Why not? I can do without broken faregates that sit wide open and allow people in. Or not being able to use my phone as my charlie card and pay that way.
Keolis
By BostonDog
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 2:46pm
That's the exact argument with Keolis and yet that private company is a shitshow. (As is the state's oversight of their contract.)
Without question the current system fare needs to be replaced but Boston has a poor track record with these "partnerships" for big projects. Much like Keolis, there's a real chance the new system works poorly and instead of holding the company accountable they make excuses and it's the riders who end up suffering the most.
Another example of Massachusetts' "partnership" failure was with the state's ACA website. It was a total failure where the public paid the price and the contractor made a boatload.
The stupid thing about paying
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 3:06pm
The stupid thing about paying Keolis is the MBTA (an organization that's all about.... driving trains) is paying an outside company... to drive trains. While this is the MBTA (a train organization) paying an outside company to design and maintain software and the hardware it runs on.
Should the MBTA be a software developer in addition to a train operator?
Sometimes outsourcing makes sense, sometimes not. I have no doubt that the outside company will inevitably have customer service issues, delays in repairs, etc. But so does the MBTA, and at least this way we're streamlining the organization back to core purposes, which is always more efficient in the long run.
The MBTA has never operated
By leviramsey
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 3:38pm
The MBTA has never operated trains (at least nothing that's a train as far as the Feds are concerned (i.e. comes under the regulation of the Federal Railroad Administration)). The commuter rail has been privately operated since day one. In the era since the MBTA took control of the service and subsidized it, it was the Boston & Maine, then Amtrak, then MBCR (mostly Bombardier) and now Keolis.
I get your point but for most
By anon
Tue, 11/21/2017 - 8:13am
I get your point but for most laypeople there's a "common sense" train of thought that says if you run "subway trains" you can run "other trains". It's not a completely out of left field connection
???
By bgl
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 3:47pm
Keolis is just another private company that is running the CR ops - the MBTA has never, ever run them in house and has always outsourced them.
But
By cybah
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 7:26pm
But if you ask other transit agencies about their Keolis contract, they have nothing but glowing things to say about Keolis. Yet if you ask a T rider... much different story
Why? Because its all in the RFP and scope of the contract. The Keolis contract with the T is far different than any other agency Keolis deals with.
The issue with Keolis has never been Keolis itself, but the MBTA and how they manage it.
Not saying the fare collection will be the same or not but.. you never know
And trust me, after working briefly for the RIDE contractor who took over.. I can tell you, its been a shitshow.
Nothing compared to the GLX shell game
By anon
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 11:25am
This entire weekend after the great GLX news, I kept telling myself this is just too good to be true. Then I find out it was. Boston will soon hear "Phoenix Constructors" and "Fluor Fiasco" everyday. How did our self-proclaimed transportation guru Sec Pollack miss this one?
Ventra?
By Ari O
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 12:01pm
Chicago went to a whole new system a couple of years ago. You can pay with your phone or with a contactless bank card, but very few people do. Most use a Ventra card, which costs $5 but you can get that back as transit fare if you register the card online. It's also built by Cubic, works sort of okay, although they don't have the ability to use a card on the Commuter Rail there (which is a different operator and has minimal fare compatibility). Cost $454m, so similar order of magnitude, although they don't have freestanding bus stop fare machines.
Chicago also has a nice app
By cden4
Mon, 11/20/2017 - 2:00pm
Chicago also has a nice app that allows you to add value to your Ventra card instantly. It's pretty slick.
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