WCVB reports a federal lawsuit by now former Twitter employees over how they were let go without the required notification was filed by former attorney-general candidate Shannon Liss-Riordan.
The impact of $$ penalties for a WARN violation (and they will certainly be able to cite changing business conditions, etc as a reasonable defense) would be the equivalent of me ordering pizza for my entire office on a Friday afternoon and paying out of pocket.
Now these Twitter employees can tap into their PTO and severance payouts so that Shannon can reap some nice fees to pay for an extended tropical vacation in February.
Now these Twitter employees can tap into their PTO and severance payouts so that Shannon can reap some nice fees to pay for an extended tropical vacation in February.
Do individuals normally pay fees for class action lawsuits? I thought they were always paid out of whatever was recovered from the suit (which usually means the legal team benefits more than any individual plaintiff, but the plaintiffs themselves haven't actually lost anything).
The law cited has been around for years. It was passed in the eighties. The case law around it is pretty much settled. The Act pretty much states that you have to give notice for mass layoffs above a certain amount. It will cover some management as well as hourly workers.
I doubt that Elon Musk, with his access to legal expertise, will do something rash or dumb here.
The people he fired have multi million dollar golden parachutes and basically were escorted out of the building with valets carrying duffel bags full of filthy lucre for them.
It could be argued that the new management did not foresee corporations, like car companies, pulling their advertising so soon. If this is considered an unforeseen business circumstance, that could well trigger an exemption to the WARN Act on the Federal level, but Cali, I believe, has no such exemption.
Basically, the employees will get paid/benefits for sixty days. It's just a question of wether you want them in the building.
So, assume 7500 employees and half of them get fired. Say they make an average of $2K a week. Eight weeks at 2K is $16K times 3750 people.
Damn. That's about what Parag Agrawal got.
The article is confusing in a certain way: "The class action lawsuit was filed Thursday in federal court in San Francisco on behalf of one employee who was laid off and three others who were locked out of their work accounts. It alleges that Twitter intends to lay off more employees and has violated the law by not providing the required notice."
"...we filed this lawsuit last night preemptively to make sure that employees were on notice and were aware of their rights," Liss-Riordan told NewsCenter 5. "
Four is less than 50.
If they lay off less than 50 (Cali, I think, Fed is 100) people, then the point is moot. Just pay them the 60 days. Depends on when the clock starts ticking. This person might be a 'legit' single layoff. The next three might be 'legit' also. Wait a bit, let things settle down, then issue the sixty day notices.
Warning: This is from 'libs of tiktok'. It's 'a day in the life of a Twitter employee'. They have wine on tap in the cafeteria.
I doubt that Elon Musk, with his access to legal expertise, will do something rash or dumb here.
My guy - the dude overpaid for the whole company because he signed the contract on a whim without doing due diligence and then discovered that surprise, they wouldn't let him back out of it. He's been live on Twitter trying to negotiate with celebrities about how much he can charge for verification while they tell him he's being an idiot. This entire thing has been nothing but rash and dumb on his end.
Plus what car company wants to help out the head of Tesla... who used Tesla stock to help finance the acquisition? (Except Tesla, but they famously don't advertise). I doubt we'll see car advertising on Twitter.
"Multiple sources and Twitter Blind chats now saying that the company has begun to reach out to some people it laid off yesterday asking them to come back. Whoops!"
Here's a very long quote from Matt Levine in his last week talking about just how rash this is, and also why golden parachutes exist.
Parag Agrawal has an employment agreement that says he gets a huge bag of money if (1) Twitter is acquired and (2) then he is fired.[3] He has been CEO for less than a year and stands to make tens of millions of dollars. Why did Twitter’s board agree to this deal? Why does almost every public company agree to that deal?
The answer is that sometimes public companies would be better off getting acquired, but that would rarely make their CEOs better off, unless they got paid. Earlier this year, Parag Agrawal had a good job as CEO of Twitter. He got paid well, he got to boss people around, it was nice. Then Elon Musk came along and said, more or less in so many words, “I want to buy Twitter and fire the CEO as rudely as possible.” Agrawal might quite reasonably have said, no, I like my job, I like getting paid, I like being the boss, I don’t like people being rude and firing me. And then, as the CEO of Twitter, he could have tried to prevent the merger. It might not have worked: Musk could have (and almost did) put in a hostile bid to try to buy Twitter without the CEO’s approval; hostile bids do sometimes succeed. But in general if a CEO wants to block a deal, that makes it harder to do the deal.
But the deal was clearly (especially in hindsight) really good for Twitter’s shareholders: They got $54.20 per share, which is way more than the shares would otherwise be worth. And Twitter’s board had set up incentives so that, if a deal came along that was good for shareholders but bad for Agrawal, Agrawal would say yes. The incentive is that Agrawal would get fired rudely, but he’d get a big check to make up for it. I once wrote about the general theory:
CEOs tend to receive whomping great “golden parachutes” for selling their companies, even if they’ve only been there a short time and haven’t done a very good job. Every time this happens, people complain about it, but you shouldn’t think of the golden parachute as a reward for being the CEO. It’s an incentive to stop being the CEO: If the CEO knows he’ll get paid $100 million for quitting in a merger, that might overcome his natural aversion to doing the merger.
Here, the golden parachutes worked perfectly. Agrawal and his management team clearly did not like Musk or want him to buy the company, and they clearly knew he would fire them, but they negotiated a deal with him anyway, because it was in the best interests of shareholders. They put shareholder value above their own careers and interests, perhaps because they are noble people who love shareholder value, but perhaps also because they stood to get huge bags of money as a reward for this sacrifice.
And then he tried to get out of the deal! Elon Musk, a semi-hostile acquirer who clearly had it in for Agrawal et al., was like “okay never mind, not gonna buy Twitter.” They could have let him walk! They could have said “okay he doesn’t want to buy Twitter and we don’t want to work for him briefly before he fires us, so this worked out great for us, bye Elon.” But instead they sued to force him to close the deal, and dealt with a lot of stress and online abuse, even though Musk didn’t want to buy Twitter and they didn’t want him to buy Twitter. But they got it done anyway, because their shareholders wanted Musk to buy Twitter, and they were working on behalf of the shareholders. And because they were incentivized, by their severance payments, to do that.
Let’s say Musk is entirely right that “Twitter has been mismanaged and that if it were not for his bid, the value of the company’s stock would have collapsed.” That is why the golden parachutes are there! If Twitter was managed great and worth more than his bid, he wouldn’t have bought it, and they wouldn’t need severance! And anyone can mismanage a company and drive down the stock price and then not sell the company to keep drawing a salary. Agrawal et al., let’s assume, mismanaged Twitter and drove down the stock price, but because they were good stewards of shareholder value, they nonetheless managed to get a ton of money for shareholders. They have to be rewarded for that!
The basic problem with Musk’s efforts to walk away from his deal to buy Twitter — beyond the transparent nonsense of his actual arguments — was that if he could walk away from this deal then no merger agreement would be binding; every buyer could change their mind and go to court and say “meh, contracts, they don’t matter.” That did not work out for him; the system held.
The basic problem with Musk’s efforts to walk away from these severance agreements — beyond the lack of actual arguments — is that if he can stiff these executives then no golden parachute is binding. The point of a golden parachute is that a CEO with a golden parachute will sell his company to a buyer whom he doesn’t like, if that’s what is best for shareholders. If the buyer can stiff the CEO on the parachute payments because they don’t like each other, then no buyer will ever pay severance, and no CEO will ever trust it.
Why does almost every public company agree to that deal?
Levine then goes on to explain at great length why they do. The short version is that it's part of the CEO racket. You become a CEO, get on the board of directors of some other companies, and approve ridiculous benefits for the CEOs of those companies, with the understanding that they'll do the same for you. It has nothing whatsoever to do with doing a good job at running a company.
Magoo is pleased to announce that Magoo is officially a new twitter employee. Magoo shall be monitoring twitter activity ensuring that it has enough appropriate Magoo-ness. Magoo and Elon get along famously and Magoo is very excited for this new opportunity. Magoo.
If benefits are also paid for at least 60 days. Which is why this lawsuit seems premature at the very least, or perhaps is just an attempt to garner some publicity for the lawyer filing it. I think Twitter's lawyers file a motion to dismiss citing the terms of the severance they're paying out, and there's a chance north of 95% that the motion to dismiss is granted.
It's not illegal to lock you out of your work email/Slack/physical office while you're employed. It's not a good sign for your continued employment, but as long as you're still getting paid, the company's on the right side of the law (as long as there aren't some stipulations in your employment contract which state otherwise).
It turns out that if workers are entitled to certain rights or benefits, you have to give those to them, even if maybe you don't want to.
(now, is it possible that there are circumstances in this case where these workers aren't actually entitled to these rights? Maybe, but that's why we have a court system to decide these things.)
So the Twitter elitist employees think they are immune to being let go? Ordinary people get let go and laid off every day. What makes these powerful social media employees entitled to a federal lawsuit? The new Twitter admin can make whatever personnel decisions they please. If Musk wants to clean house and bring in his own team then that’s just the way it is.
Turns out that we as a society have passed laws that say that employers can or can't do specific things. These "powerful social media employees" are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, as it turns out. If Musk wants to clean house and bring in his own team he's entitled to, but he has to do that following the same rules as everyone else.
That’s even though the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification statute requires employers with at least 100 workers to disclose layoffs involving 500 or more employees, regardless of whether a company is publicly traded or privately held
I guess if you read the article you'd know why they are entitled to this protection when others are not... This does not preclude individual former employees for filing suits that they were personally targeted. Considering Twitter had been chugging along before he arrived, not a financial hit but not in danger of collapse, and that he's worth billions himself the courts may not look favorably at any excuse that involves a need due to emergency circumstances.
I assume he will just pay the fine and anticipated this. Him giving them compensation upfront is his attempt to make it look like he's the good guy, it just so happens to line up with the sixty day time frame in the laws.
Only in the deranged mind of a republican is a middle class employee who helped create the company is considered an elitist against a trust fund billionaire interloper who had no part in creating Twitter.
Big ad buyers are taking their money elsewhere. Twitter has lost out on guaranteed ad revenue for 2023 because Elon the Twit can't do his homework or learn anything.
Turns out that mantrums and broviating doesn't pay the bills.
Not having to buy shitty goods because some ceo thinks his shit don't stink is called Capitalism, bayybee!
What makes these powerful social media employees entitled to a federal lawsuit? The new Twitter admin can make whatever personnel decisions they please. If Musk wants to clean house and bring in his own team then that’s just the way it is.
You’ve answered your own question here. The new admin actually *can’t* make *whatever* personnel decisions they please, hence the lawsuit.
Particularly the circumstances where the thing going broke appears to be Twitter itself (you know, the one that has to lay off a ton of people to pay for the loan they had to take out so that they could be acquired for more than their value by someone who didn't actually want to do that?).
whose sale so unnerved its advertisers that they suspended their buys, such that Twitter's revenues have suffered a precipitous drop. Smooth move, Mr. Stark!
I shake my head when he blames other people for ads dropping... He's the one that tossed things into turmoil in the spring in an effort to somehow make a larger profit and then got stuck on his own hook. Somehow I don't think ads will line up after his finger snap wiped out half of Twitter after a few dozen hours at the wheel.
The questions asked during that messy little conference have been around for years. Anybody who knew what needed to be said or done had plenty of time to study up.
Musk is just a frontman for toxic masculinity and special rich boy stupidity. He has no clue how to even get a clue.
Meanwhile, those of us with personal ties to places that are getting that ad money are hardly "going broke". Lol.
Estimates from Bot Sentinel suggest that more than 875,000 users deactivated their accounts between October 27 and November 1, while half a million more were suspended.
People tossed aside during a cwoot widdle mantrum? Or Elon the Twit, who can't seem to attract ad revenue because he's an unstable idiot in the middle of a raving lunacy episode?
Read up on what guaranteed ad revenue and upfront spending means. Because your boojiboi god couldn't be bothered.
The WARN may apply based on how it was all done and handled - I don’t think Shannon is looking to uhm fleece some tech guys, do you understand how the law works?
As a tech worker who has been laid off, usually legal wiill advise and HR will handle - unless you are a large headed rich guy CEO who thinks laws don’t apply to him.
This is to protect and compensate workers - and stop the exist crap. Wow backlash against tech needs being elitist? Oh I forgot in the GOP world view, you are either lawyers, finance, waiters coal miners or drug addicts.
The man has a net worth of 208 billion dollars and change. Let's subtract 44 billion for the acquisition of Twitter and say (really high-end) 3 billion to settle all the wrongful termination suits, that still leaves him with 161 billion.
That doesn't make him a financial genius or even a nice guy, but I don't think Elon is worried about going broke anytime soon.
Comments
For an organization of Twitter's magnitude
The impact of $$ penalties for a WARN violation (and they will certainly be able to cite changing business conditions, etc as a reasonable defense) would be the equivalent of me ordering pizza for my entire office on a Friday afternoon and paying out of pocket.
Now these Twitter employees can tap into their PTO and severance payouts so that Shannon can reap some nice fees to pay for an extended tropical vacation in February.
I'm not a legal expert
Do individuals normally pay fees for class action lawsuits? I thought they were always paid out of whatever was recovered from the suit (which usually means the legal team benefits more than any individual plaintiff, but the plaintiffs themselves haven't actually lost anything).
Correct...
I didn't catch class action... thx
Seems like a class action, but it may not matter
The law cited has been around for years. It was passed in the eighties. The case law around it is pretty much settled. The Act pretty much states that you have to give notice for mass layoffs above a certain amount. It will cover some management as well as hourly workers.
I doubt that Elon Musk, with his access to legal expertise, will do something rash or dumb here.
The people he fired have multi million dollar golden parachutes and basically were escorted out of the building with valets carrying duffel bags full of filthy lucre for them.
It could be argued that the new management did not foresee corporations, like car companies, pulling their advertising so soon. If this is considered an unforeseen business circumstance, that could well trigger an exemption to the WARN Act on the Federal level, but Cali, I believe, has no such exemption.
Basically, the employees will get paid/benefits for sixty days. It's just a question of wether you want them in the building.
So, assume 7500 employees and half of them get fired. Say they make an average of $2K a week. Eight weeks at 2K is $16K times 3750 people.
Damn. That's about what Parag Agrawal got.
The article is confusing in a certain way: "The class action lawsuit was filed Thursday in federal court in San Francisco on behalf of one employee who was laid off and three others who were locked out of their work accounts. It alleges that Twitter intends to lay off more employees and has violated the law by not providing the required notice."
"...we filed this lawsuit last night preemptively to make sure that employees were on notice and were aware of their rights," Liss-Riordan told NewsCenter 5. "
Four is less than 50.
If they lay off less than 50 (Cali, I think, Fed is 100) people, then the point is moot. Just pay them the 60 days. Depends on when the clock starts ticking. This person might be a 'legit' single layoff. The next three might be 'legit' also. Wait a bit, let things settle down, then issue the sixty day notices.
Warning: This is from 'libs of tiktok'. It's 'a day in the life of a Twitter employee'. They have wine on tap in the cafeteria.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1585395267552960512
Nice music.
Caveat: This is (mostly) based on Federal law. Shannon Liss-Riordan is probably well versed on Cali law. YMMV.
Wouldn't do something rash???
My guy - the dude overpaid for the whole company because he signed the contract on a whim without doing due diligence and then discovered that surprise, they wouldn't let him back out of it. He's been live on Twitter trying to negotiate with celebrities about how much he can charge for verification while they tell him he's being an idiot. This entire thing has been nothing but rash and dumb on his end.
Musk didn't do his homework, either
Multiple advertisers have absolutely walked on 2023 guaranteed ad buys because he thinks the answer to every question is red pills and brotantrums.
He had plenty of time to fomulate responses. That's too much like work. https://www.investors.com/news/technology/twitter-layoffs-begin-as-adver...
Plus what car company wants
Plus what car company wants to help out the head of Tesla... who used Tesla stock to help finance the acquisition? (Except Tesla, but they famously don't advertise). I doubt we'll see car advertising on Twitter.
Even further evidence of the "didn't think this through"
edit: looks like my post didn't work correctly (probably because I pasted an emoji), but it was this tweet:
https://twitter.com/CaseyNewton/status/1589075543420325888
"Multiple sources and Twitter Blind chats now saying that the company has begun to reach out to some people it laid off yesterday asking them to come back. Whoops!"
Except Musk is trying to weasel out if the Golden parachutes, oo
Everything Elon does is rash.
Here's a very long quote from Matt Levine in his last week talking about just how rash this is, and also why golden parachutes exist.
Why
Levine then goes on to explain at great length why they do. The short version is that it's part of the CEO racket. You become a CEO, get on the board of directors of some other companies, and approve ridiculous benefits for the CEOs of those companies, with the understanding that they'll do the same for you. It has nothing whatsoever to do with doing a good job at running a company.
You could think of it as the
You could think of it as the victims not losing money, but either way, it’s a huge amount of money from the defendants that the victims don’t get.
Magoo sez
Magoo is pleased to announce that Magoo is officially a new twitter employee. Magoo shall be monitoring twitter activity ensuring that it has enough appropriate Magoo-ness. Magoo and Elon get along famously and Magoo is very excited for this new opportunity. Magoo.
Good hire
You are indeed fitting for his personality.
They are getting paid and get
They are getting paid and get full benefits through February without needing to show up to work, but feel entitled to a federal lawsuit?
So Twitter is above the law?
Do tell.
I think he's relying
on the well-known "I baked you a cake, therefore I can beat you up" legal principle.
Maybe because 90 days
Maybe because 90 days severance satisfies the legal requirement of 60 days warning?
I don't know if it does or not, but it does seem like it ought to work that way.
It does...
If benefits are also paid for at least 60 days. Which is why this lawsuit seems premature at the very least, or perhaps is just an attempt to garner some publicity for the lawyer filing it. I think Twitter's lawyers file a motion to dismiss citing the terms of the severance they're paying out, and there's a chance north of 95% that the motion to dismiss is granted.
It's not illegal to lock you out of your work email/Slack/physical office while you're employed. It's not a good sign for your continued employment, but as long as you're still getting paid, the company's on the right side of the law (as long as there aren't some stipulations in your employment contract which state otherwise).
44 billion dollar boots taste
44 billion dollar boots taste good
Yes, that's how the law works
It turns out that if workers are entitled to certain rights or benefits, you have to give those to them, even if maybe you don't want to.
(now, is it possible that there are circumstances in this case where these workers aren't actually entitled to these rights? Maybe, but that's why we have a court system to decide these things.)
So the Twitter elitist
So the Twitter elitist employees think they are immune to being let go? Ordinary people get let go and laid off every day. What makes these powerful social media employees entitled to a federal lawsuit? The new Twitter admin can make whatever personnel decisions they please. If Musk wants to clean house and bring in his own team then that’s just the way it is.
What makes them entitled? The law, dude
Turns out that we as a society have passed laws that say that employers can or can't do specific things. These "powerful social media employees" are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, as it turns out. If Musk wants to clean house and bring in his own team he's entitled to, but he has to do that following the same rules as everyone else.
That’s even though the Worker
I guess if you read the article you'd know why they are entitled to this protection when others are not... This does not preclude individual former employees for filing suits that they were personally targeted. Considering Twitter had been chugging along before he arrived, not a financial hit but not in danger of collapse, and that he's worth billions himself the courts may not look favorably at any excuse that involves a need due to emergency circumstances.
I assume he will just pay the fine and anticipated this. Him giving them compensation upfront is his attempt to make it look like he's the good guy, it just so happens to line up with the sixty day time frame in the laws.
Only in the deranged mind of
Only in the deranged mind of a republican is a middle class employee who helped create the company is considered an elitist against a trust fund billionaire interloper who had no part in creating Twitter.
Guess what?
Big ad buyers are taking their money elsewhere. Twitter has lost out on guaranteed ad revenue for 2023 because Elon the Twit can't do his homework or learn anything.
Turns out that mantrums and broviating doesn't pay the bills.
Not having to buy shitty goods because some ceo thinks his shit don't stink is called Capitalism, bayybee!
oh idk, laws?
You’ve answered your own question here. The new admin actually *can’t* make *whatever* personnel decisions they please, hence the lawsuit.
Get woke, go broke. Good luck
Get woke, go broke. Good luck finding a new job to all the laid off Twits.
This is pretty hilarious given the circumstances
Particularly the circumstances where the thing going broke appears to be Twitter itself (you know, the one that has to lay off a ton of people to pay for the loan they had to take out so that they could be acquired for more than their value by someone who didn't actually want to do that?).
And the one...
whose sale so unnerved its advertisers that they suspended their buys, such that Twitter's revenues have suffered a precipitous drop. Smooth move, Mr. Stark!
I shake my head when he
I shake my head when he blames other people for ads dropping... He's the one that tossed things into turmoil in the spring in an effort to somehow make a larger profit and then got stuck on his own hook. Somehow I don't think ads will line up after his finger snap wiped out half of Twitter after a few dozen hours at the wheel.
He didn't do his homework
The questions asked during that messy little conference have been around for years. Anybody who knew what needed to be said or done had plenty of time to study up.
Musk is just a frontman for toxic masculinity and special rich boy stupidity. He has no clue how to even get a clue.
Meanwhile, those of us with personal ties to places that are getting that ad money are hardly "going broke". Lol.
This interaction here
was particularly hilarious. Especially for the group thinking that buying Twitter was going to be for the purpose of "free speech".
But wait - there's more
Twitter may have lost more than a million users since Elon Musk took over
Then why are the richest
Then why are the richest states blue and the poorest states red?
Okay dearie
Who is going broke?
People tossed aside during a cwoot widdle mantrum? Or Elon the Twit, who can't seem to attract ad revenue because he's an unstable idiot in the middle of a raving lunacy episode?
Read up on what guaranteed ad revenue and upfront spending means. Because your boojiboi god couldn't be bothered.
Gotta love virus experts who are now internet lawyers!
The WARN may apply based on how it was all done and handled - I don’t think Shannon is looking to uhm fleece some tech guys, do you understand how the law works?
As a tech worker who has been laid off, usually legal wiill advise and HR will handle - unless you are a large headed rich guy CEO who thinks laws don’t apply to him.
This is to protect and compensate workers - and stop the exist crap. Wow backlash against tech needs being elitist? Oh I forgot in the GOP world view, you are either lawyers, finance, waiters coal miners or drug addicts.
Cram it with walnuts you scum sucker.
Why Muskie doesn't just pay them I don't understand?
The man has a net worth of 208 billion dollars and change. Let's subtract 44 billion for the acquisition of Twitter and say (really high-end) 3 billion to settle all the wrongful termination suits, that still leaves him with 161 billion.
That doesn't make him a financial genius or even a nice guy, but I don't think Elon is worried about going broke anytime soon.
161 billion is less than 208 billion
that's all there is to it