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Mem Drive road rager used pipe to smash head of his opponent, but that proved a mistake because the other guy had a gun, police say
By adamg on Mon, 08/19/2024 - 9:54am
Cambridge Day reports on the blood on asphalt on Memorial Drive at Ames Street left from where one driver used a pipe upside the other guy's head and that guy took out his licensed gun and plugged his opponent several times. Both will face charges - once they get out of the hospital.
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you know what they say…
Never bring a pipe to a gunfight.
Unless it’s a peace pipe.
.
I'm not a gun guy, but...
if you have a licensed gun and somebody goes upside your head with a pipe, that gun is legal to use to defend yourself. If not, why bother having it?
If witnesses come forward and say who struck first, the shooter should be cleared of charges.
Agreed, if the facts are as
Agreed, if the facts are as presented, the guy who got his head bashed with a pipe was acting in self defense.
I would acquit if I was on the jury.
Yep
You wouldn't even get me on the jury. I'd be dismissed before "(expletive) around and find out" finished escaping my lips.
Didn't specify gun-related charges
If the guy who was attacked with a pipe violated traffic laws and co-raged/raced, that could be the basis of charges.
Otherwise, I agree that this was a valid use of a legally carried firearm and it isn't likely that charges would stick, assuming that there isn't a whole bunch of context we don't yet know (like if this started with some other sort of issue between the two parties, spiraled into road rage and lead pipes and guns, etc.).
Good point.
I jumped ahead and assumed both are going to be charged with their use of violence on the other.
But I stand by my saying that if the guy with the pipe struck first, the shooter is justified.
On the other hand, if the guy with the gun drew first in a threatening way and the guy with the pipe was defending himself, and then got shot, I'd hang the shooter.
We need all the facts.
No, you just cant unload a
No, you just cant unload a clip on someone because they hit you first. MA is not Texas or Florida.
If someone hits you in the
If someone hits you in the head with a pipe you can absolutely unload on them
Simply wrong
No, you can't.
You can.
But there will be legal consequences.
It depends
If the guy who hit you with the pipe has returned to his car or is headed in that direction - you can't start shooting at him.
I've managed to drive on
I've managed to drive on Memorial Drive and Ames Street dozens of times without needing to use a gun to defend myself against getting hit with a pipe. I suspect the guy with the gun wasn't just minding his own business.
Not always but....
It's takes two to tango in a road rage. If someone is going crazy, don't get out of the car and engage, just let it go.
Carrying a gun can mean a person is looking for a situation to escalate so they can use it. Just because the other guy struck first doesn't mean there wasn't a way to approach the situation differently that didn't involve two people out of their cars brandishing weapons at each other. It's hard to claim "self defence" when there was likely always the option to walk away. We can't reward aggression v. aggression by saying the guy who strikes second is always "innocent". In the long run that just encourages more gun wielding and trying to bait out aggression so a gun-wielder can have an excuse to use deadly force in response. Both could easily be culpable.
Depends on where they are
This wasn't Michael Martinez, who was walking away from private property when told to do so. That's a stabbing that should have never happened.
The gun dipshit had as much right to be in the street as the pipe dipshit. The gun dipshit won. I'm just disappointed that they're not both dead, especially the 65-year old pipe dipshit. What the (expletive) was he doing at 5 PM on a summer Sunday afternoon picking pipe fights? Where's his family? Does he have one? If not, what's wrong with a day at the beach with a cold beverage and something to read?
Is there a point to his life?
Hmm
Be careful handing out that kind of blanket advice, counselor. There are limits on the right to self-defense, a lot of factors that can come into play, and a lot of differences from one jurisdiction to another.
Completely depends on circumstances
For example, A has gun, B has pipe. They stop to hash out road incident.
Scenario 1: A threatens B with gun. B uses pipe to attempt to disarm A. A shoots B.
Scenario 2: B threatens and hits A with pipe. A pulls gun out of car. B immediately throws down pipe and turns away. A shoots B multiple times.
In both situations, self-defense is lost. In the latter case, even if B swings first, he was no longer a threat before being shot.
There's plenty of other scenarios where it's not self-defense...in fact, just because A could have fled the fight across Mem Drive while calling for police (duty to retreat), he may have already lost the claim to self-defense even though he was hit with the pipe. Again, it would depend on timing, behavior of B when presented with the gun, etc.
Here's a whole set of instructions on self-defense from 2009 to peruse:
https://www.mass.gov/doc/9260-self-defense-defense-of-another-defense-of...
Also, the fact that there's so many reasons why it could/couldn't be self defense is exactly why the both probably face charges. Police charge them and let the DA sort it out.
What is the point of going
What is the point of going through the arduous process of legally obtaining a firearm for self defense in the commonwealth if you can’t even use it for self defense!!????
Seriously not a gun nut
Hoping more information* that incriminates Osorio hasn’t yet been released. If not, absolutely ridiculous that a licensed gun owner, after getting whacked upside the head by a metal pipe, used a licensed firearm in self defense and is catching a charge.
Regardless of your opinion of gun laws, MA allows for individual gun ownership, and their use in self defense. MA also allows for individual car ownership, and their use in mowing down pedestrians. If some crazed road rager swinging a tire iron at a person’s head doesn't meet the standard for firearm use, the state should be upfront that law abiding citizens are now expected to use their front bumper.
*Obviously a different story if Osorio precipitated/ escalated the road rage incident, shot at Gutierrez as he was fleeing, ect…
Neither one of these assholes …
… should be permitted behind the wheel of a killing machine. Much less carry a pipe or a gun.
As suspected...so far, it's clear as mud as to what happened
But neither guy tried to leave the situation, so I think they both might end up failing a self-defense defense.
Road Ragers
Good.