Hey, there! Log in / Register
In Medford, coronavirus kills 54 residents of one nursing home; in Quincy, a Walmart shut after worker dies
Support Universal Hub
Help keep Universal Hub going. If you like what we're up to and want to help out, please consider a (completely non-deductible) contribution.
Comments
This headline is acceptable...
...to all those pro-Trump protestors on Beacon Hill yesterday.
I say prevent every tragedy.
Sweden
50% larger population than Mass, 25% fewer Covid deaths and far more limited impact on the economy.
That would have been a better solution.
Oh, the exact same time line then?
Of course not.
"I'm a numbers guy!" Stevil, cherrypicking data left and right.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-01/covid-19-sweden-ha...
Numbers guy
Picks the numb part, which leads him to err.
Except
his article has no relevance to his conclusion and in fact the article concludes:
As we approach a turning point in the crisis, it’s tempting to look back and single out winners as the model to follow. But we don’t know what’s going to happen next. None of us has lived through it yet. And that includes Sweden.
i.e. - at worst, the jury is still out - but they are still doing better than Mass. And far better than NY and NJ. And then there are those like CA who shut down fast and hard - and has now become the first state in the nation (but certainly not the last) to tap the Federal Reserve for money because they are insolvent and can't make unemployment payments without help.
actually
Sweden is beginning to regret its approach to the virus, as its death rates climb to much higher numbers than neighboring countries who used a more restrictive approach. Maybe you should read a little news before you start blathering Republican talking points. But that would require a critical thinking which might be a stretch.
Really?
They had the health minister on 60 minutes last Sunday - so about 10 days ago and he said the exact opposite. The one thing we are all regretting including Sweden (and my biggest criticism) is the lack of controls in nursing homes and elder facilities.
Again - 99% of people dying and suffering severe complications from coronavirus have underlying conditions. Also 99% are over the age of 50. Across 70,000 cases and 4000 deaths, I think we can safely say we are well into the law of large numbers and there is a pattern here.
So if you have some critical thinking and numbers that contradict that, I'm all ears.
So 1% isn't too high for you?
So 1% isn't too high for you?
You find this acceptable?
Is there something morally superior about people under 50 with no underlying conditions? Why are you so quick to write of everyone who isn't?
And the virus doesn't spontaneously appear in those who come down with it. If we want to even pretend to be a civilized society we need to take steps to protect those who are vulnerable to this bug.
Absolutely
Think about it - 47 people under the age of 50 have died from COVID in Mass. 1% of that (rounding up) means 1 healthy person under 50 has died from COVID in the whole state (and while you certainly can't extrapolate that fully and I don't have the numbers, the point is you are probably more likely to be murdered than die of COVID as a healthy person under 50- does the murder rate mean we shut down the entire society?)
Shelter the old. Shelter the vulnerable. Shelter the afraid. Let the rest of us go back to living or in very short order I absolutely guarantee you we do NOT have a civilized society for pretend or for real.
Guess what?
SHELTERING PEOPLE YOU HATE ENOUGH THAT YOU WANT THEM TO JUST DIE DOESN'T HELP THEM AT ALL!
There is no such fucking thing as SHELTER during a PANDEMIC!
Because we have a SOCIETY and they aren't on some distant farm and they will get sick anyway. But you don't care because you are a selfish greedy libertarian fuck. You don't know the first fucking thing about this, but your greed propels you to pretend that you do with your with your little bullshit just so stories.
Stay in your lane, slumlord. OR go to hell.
Really - then what the hell are we doing?
We shut down 100% of our society when only 30-40% is at significant risk.
Does that just come from some bizarre sense of fairness or do all your statistical skills fail you in a real world situation?
Shorter:
my $ > lives of the 30% - 40% at risk
Whether or not that accurately represents your position, it sure is what it sounds like you are trying to say.
Are you that dense
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
the 30-40% of the population at high risk shelters. The rest of us go to work so we can pay for them to shelter. I might even be one of the sheltered (fortunately I can work from home) - but if so advised so be it. I'm not going to deny a couple hundred million people at close to zero risk the right to make a livelihood because I have to stay in my house.
Either you are just trying to get my goat or you are terminally dense. Forget COVID - you are probably a leading candidate for the Darwin award.
Or maybe...
...you don’t express yourself clearly? I can’t be the only one who read your comment that way.
How are they gonna "shelter"?
How are they gonna "shelter", son?
What are you doing to "pay for them to shelter"?
Are you paying for their Instacart? Including in communities where it doesn't exist?
What. Are. You. Doing. Other than posting this "but whyyyy but whyyyyy but whyyyyyyyMEMEMEMEMEME" crap?
If that's a serious question
this conversation is miles over your head.
Looks like you just bailed
Couldn't answer the questions, so you took the L.
You can't answer legitimate questions about how these people you want to write off are going to "shelter", so "this conversation" is miles above MY head?
Own goal, son.
You understand that there are
You understand that there are young people living with parents and grandparents right? Should they get locked in the attic?
Really?
Imagine that.
Always the exception. Work around it.
You’re dumb
You’re dumb
And you do know that there
And you do know that there are MANY families living like this right? Your thinking is selfish and unrealistic.
Thank you
So what percentage of Mass households does this apply to. And give me three ways you could solve that problem.
That's your homework.
And don't call your teachers dumb.
Very disrespectful.
You’re gross
You’re gross
That's not the right answer
Try again or you get an F.
You do realize that my plan kills hundreds or thousands fewer people than Charlie's.
I don't know why you all have a problem with that.
I've got to hand it to you
I don't think I've ever seen the Dunning-Kruger Effect expressed so well in a thread. In the past three weeks, you've been teed-offed on by every person here who ever saw the inside of a freshman-level science course, and you just keep coming back for more. Congratulations, I guess. Now, where do your parents live, so I can go cough on them?
Then go ahead
Be specific. Where am I wrong? Please use math, demographics and statistics, not " you are wrong because everyone says so". (Except Sweden)
underlying health conditions are common
This idea that people with underlying conditions were at death's door anyway is a lie. Do you know what underlying conditions constitutes -Obesity, which is a huge proportion of our population including our president. Hypertension, diabetes, moderate asthma, heart conditions, liver conditions.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/underlying-conditions.html
These are not throwaway people that were at home dying. These people are all ages and most work. So conservatives willingness to discard these people is dangerous and sad.
Thank you! Like seriously???
Thank you! Like seriously??? So kids fighting cancer and grandparents living with diabetes have less value??
Drunken Naked Sauna
Prevents Covid. Open up L Street now!!!
Sweden: top 10 death rate
I don’t consider having one of the top 10 COVID death rates among 180 or so nations to be a great solution. And I don’t see Sweden as a success when it has 5-10x the number of deaths as its immediate neighbors Denmark and Norway.
If Sweden were a US state, it, like Massachusetts, would be amongst the top 10 states in death rates.
I do
Much lower death rate than us and they didn't shut down the economy.
Check back in 90 days after the fed has dumped $3 TRILLION on the debt markets (for scale, that's a typical three year supply in 3 months) and another trillion the quarter after that (assuming no more new stimulus from the government which is a pipe dream).
Need something closer to now and closer to home?
Walsh recently proposed a budget 4.4% larger than last year. Only:
1) Much of the "new construction" which is about half that increase either this year or next won't be showing up. Projects are now months behind schedule and far fewer people have the money to buy properties if they do build them.
2) The city gets about 12% of their budget from the state - but no way the state is going to have the money to fund all/most of that - see ya.
3) The city gets millions from jet fuel tax, hotel tax, rental car tax and more - buh bye.
4) Now translate this to the thousands of just city workers that no longer have a salary, health care benefits and more and the impact that has on businesses throughout the city.
That's just off the top of my head. You think the physical pain of all this is bad? Even Sweden will not escape unscathed, but you have no idea what's in store for us even if we do get partially back to work.
This is only the first wave of pain.
Benefits of Public Health Interventions
One solution: know that we are saving as many lives as possible knowing that there will be immense economic pain.
Other solution: know we are sacrificing lives while not knowing if opening up will be better or the same for the economy, or possibly, according to many credentialed economists who have studied pandemic response recovery, tanking the economy further.
People are acting like they know that, despite life loss and life-long physical and psychological damage to survivors, opening back up will automatically be better for the economy. It’s based on nothing more than hope.
But Heidi Shierholz, former chief economist of the US Dept of Labor tells us:
Pandemics Depress the Economy, Public Health Interventions Do Not: Evidence from the 1918 Flu
It seems like there is a lot to lose if we open the economy, lose more lives and slow down financial recovery.
Interesting concept
But the only way to do this and get apples to apples is to make ENORMOUS assumptions. If you're off by even a fraction due to the impact of compounding you get the whole thing backwards.
Keep in mind:
1) The Spanish flu knocked out healthy, working age people. COVID does not in any statistically significant way.
2) the 1918 economy looks nothing like ours. Almost all of the people dying in today wouldn't be dying in 1918 because they'd have died 15-20 years ago.
3) We know that the 10 years following that was one of wretched excess that ended in tragedy. How do you adjust for the historical known vs. an unknown future - what happens in and A/B/C scenario, especially in a society that has population, productivity and longevity growth that is a fraction of what came to be back then and not likely to return to those levels?
4) federal, state and local governments entered that period with little or no debt. That ratio now on the Federal level alone will be close to 140% by the time we are done with the first phase of this. Without intervention via the Federal Reserve many states are literally insolvent - TBD for local communities - but many are leveraged to the hilt.
I could go on, but can you let me know the assumptions the authors made to adjust for those variables before drawing a parallel between 1918 and 2020?
Well I’d rather die of
Well I’d rather die of starvation knowing I treated everyone equally and humanely.
Stevid is wrong
From today's Worldometer:
US death rate/1M pop: 218
Sweden death rate/1M pop: 283
The numbers guy has the numbers wrong. Imagine that.
Mass
Not the US.
BZZZZZZZZTTTT!
Oh, that's the wrong answer.
The current reality: Sweden screwed this one up big time.
Sweden banked on their much healthier population with good access to health care and very low poverty rates. What they know at the time is that such populations seem to generate superspreaders who then infect lots of people because they don't know they are sick.
Now they have COVID death rates SIX TIMES that of their neighbors.
https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-norway-sweden-different-coronavir...
except Sweden (mostly) doesn't think so
The failure was not having stricter MANDATORY safety controls in nursing homes. Other than that their efforts seem to be working as forecast.
Sweden
I’m not sure Sweden’s economic outlook is as rosy as you think...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/30/coronavirus-sweden-economy-to-contract-a...
Tbag's gloating is disgusting
Tbag's gloating is disgusting.
Get a dictionary
Assigning blame where it is clearly merited != "gloating".
To quote Lizzo...
...truth hurts.
Appalling levels of nursing home deaths
The Globe had an excellent column on one reason why nursing homes are so susceptible to outbreaks
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/25/opinion/poverty-wages-nursing-hom...
Exactly
When community spread was first revealed in Kirkland WA (remember that place?) it was because residents of two nursing homes had tested positive. Now, follow me...
A lot of this could have been prevented by giving these people full-time work at a living wage.
Or
Even now - how about better protective gear - not so much for the workers (although partly) but to protect the patients.
Classic logical fallacy
That's an "and", not an "or", son.
I’ve been to
That Walmart in Quincy. During a time when other stores started limiting shoppers and social distancing, nothing was being done at that Walmart. Many people were coming very close to each other in those little aisles
All those young and healthy
All those young and healthy nursing home residents...
Do you have a point?
Or is this another "only black and old people are dying so who cares" vacuity?
Because that simply isn't the truth of what has been going on.