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State planning rail service between South Boston convention center and Back Bay
By adamg on Fri, 09/06/2013 - 7:21am
The Globe gets the scoop on a plan to use small self-propelled diesel cars to shuttle people between the Seaport and Back Bay station via a short and dormant track the state acquired in last year's CSX deal.
For you oldtimers, think Budd cars, only more modern. And, yes, the state is planning on buying some of the units for use on the Fairmount Line, too.
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Comments
I'm happy that...
I'm happy that the T is going to finally use DMU's, which might appear on more commuter lines. Its a good median between heavy rail (Red Line style trains) and commuter rail.
However, I cannot help remember in the 1990s when the Silver Line was being built and how "this is all we need for the seaport" and how everyone was pretty much against the Silver Line (more the Washington Street branch but still the entire project was questionable) but was still built anyways.
Now they want to build another line to the Seaport. Sorry, I don't buy this. This line will pretty much only serve convention center visitors and tourists to the seaport district. Yeah normal every day people will ride it some, but let's be realistic, this is for the tourists who can't figure out that you can take the Silver Line to South Station and then switch to all (except one) Commuter Rail line and accomplish the same thing.
The other thing that gets me is where did this come from in terms of projects? There's so many other things the T really should be spending its money on, not to build a tourist rail line because tourists are too dumb to figure out the T.
I'm very pro public transit but I just cannot support this project because it just duplicates service that is already there and is already paid for. We have other, more pressing things, that need to be done first.
Wasn't the main criticism of
Wasn't the main criticism of the silver line that it was slower, lower capacity buses and not light rail? If it was built as light rail and had included a connection to north station the current traffic disaster the area is currently facing may not be so bad today.
It seems like they are going to keep this single track which means only one train can operate at a time, maybe two, that doesn't seem too efficient I'd guess a round trip would probably take around 25 minutes, not really helpful for rush hour or shuttling hundreds of people at once to the convention center. Besides back bay, south station and the exhibition center I wonder if they will build a stop by south bay...
Wake up
You're living in the past time to wake up. Tourists and the people who attend conferences at the bcec are very important to this city. Do you know how many cities are dying to have to volume of tourists that boston has? Also take a ride by the convention center at 10pm the day of a big convention and look at the line for cabs. Then you will see the need for more transit in the area.
Silver Line
And the Silver Line isn't enough? Transit exists already. Why do we need another one?
Silver Line is not enough
Ask anyone who works in that area of the city if they even bother. Chances are they grab a hubway or walk or keep a beater bike or take a folding bike. The silver line is crowded and terminally slow and infrequent - particularly at rush hour.
In short, the transit sucks.
This is also needed because it connects the hotel and restaurant areas of the Back Bay and the other large conference venue with the seaport.
People who work in the Seaport do bother with the Silver Line
I worked there for years for a huge company that is largely responsible for making that area what it is today and no one I knew biked to work. Every morning, I'd see my coworkers on the Silver Line or walking to the office from their cars parked in the mud lots.
You might think more people bike around this city than they actually do but that's ok. I think everyone takes the T. Different strokes based on our own personal experiences.
No, it isn't
The Silver Line was over capacity almost from day one, long before anything was even built out down there. Now it's comically overloaded. And can't be meaningfully upgraded capacity-wise. This is why it was a stupid idea to build in the first place.
The fact that monied interests behind the BCEC and expanding it are so very interested in this train should tell you all you need to know. Putting it there, no matter how crappy the initial service may be (one way, too slow, too many crowded switches to cross, whatever)is a key step. Once it's there and crappy, these same monied interests will want it improved. And then they'll want it to go to the airport. These would be major wins, and frankly represent the only way we'll ever get even incremental improvement to the T.
Anything that moves
Anything that moves conventiongoers off the Silver Line means a faster ride to the Airport for me.
And introducing DMUs to the Boston area means all sorts of possibilities for dormant and underused train tracks.
Let's do this.
big plus = track in place already
The photo I saw from one article's link showed a map (which Really helped me visualize this better). But the pic made it look like there was only one track. Hope it works out.
I know people who live in Back Bay but work in Seaport/Innovation/whateverthehellthey'recallingitthisweek district, who hate their green line/red line/ silver line commute. This would be a godsend for them.
And why are people complaining that this is only/mainly for tourists. It's not, but what if it was? It eases crowding on the other modes of transport, how does that not benefit EVERYBODY?
Valid criticisms, but still good news
The Silver Line should have been light rail, and I agree this won't fix that mistake. But this does achieve something very important by bringing DMU equipment in to the MBTA fleet. There are several other applications for DMU service that have been blocked by the idea that the T doesn't operate that equipment. I envision DMU service on some of the urban sections of the commuter rail system bringing something closer to rapid transit level service to places like Roslindale, West Roxbury, east Cambridge, Chelsea, Lynn, etc. The door is now open for this, especially since they specifically plan to make Fairmount a DMU line.
yeah
Like I said, I'm happy to see the T think about using DMU's now, but still question this boondoggle of a project.
Not a boondoggle
Connecting the two major conference areas of the city?
No.
You've obviously never tried to run a conference in this city. In fact, the announcement has already led myself and colleagues to contemplate bidding on an international conference here in a few years, because we'd be able to easily link the districts to get the appropriate amount of hotel space.
Please tell me more
You're an expert on this! Please tell us more.
Sweetens the bid
E-mails this morning from folks at BU, Harvard, Tufts and local NGOs.
This particular conference is due back to the US in 2018, and the Hynes would be a good choice of venue if we can put together a consortium and outline a bid. However, we need a certain variety and quantity of rooms to pull it off (and Boston tends to be tight on hotel space in August-October according to our admins who have to book rooms for large academic meetings).
If they can get this link in, it would help a great deal because it ties the largest blocks of hotels in the city into both convention facilities, so that people wouldn't have to do tedious multiline hops if they want to get to the Hynes from the Seaport Area, or to the Seaport Convention Center from Copley.
As this is an international conference, the quality of public transit is a very big consideration for the executive committee (even when it is semi-stacked with people from Boston ...). The more people can get around, the more options there are.
Again.
you just solidified my argument that this is just for tourists not for every day people.
And uh.. they are already connected. Again see my statement about Silver Line to South Station and hopping on a commuter train.
Again, why do we need a direct link to shuffle stupid tourists around who can't figure out the T?
Sorry I stand by my final paragraph above and say.. "We have better things to spend money on"
Annnd
If its so needed by the Convention center, why don't the area hotels pool together and do this, if there's such a need.
Why don't they? it costs them money. And why pay for something when the tax payers will just pay for it.
I beg to differ - a little
I live a few blocks from Back Bay station and would love a reasonable alternative to a cab when I'm in somewhat decent clothes and looking for a quick way to get over to the new eateries on the waterfront that don't involve sweat and trudging through the snow. I would bet a lot of people who live in the Back Bay will in time be working over there and this will become their commuting mode of choice. That said - not sure what the volumes will be.
One interesting - totally anecdotal note aside. Having lived in the Back Bay for 20 years my wife and I have both noticed that Boylston and Newbury seem unusually quiet this year. I have to imagine that the waterfront has taken a lot of business from Back Bay eateries and shops. My guess is that this line will end up hurting more than helping as I can see tourists zipping over to eat on the water far more than I see tourists heading over to Back Bay to eat on Boylston/Newbury Streets.
For the good of my neighborhood, hope I'm wrong but I have an sneaking suspicion this won't be good for the commercial areas of Back Bay.
"Tourists"
Aka "People who spend a lot of money and otherwise clog up the transit system".
Yes. That.
Also, this will benefit people who come in from the orange line and need to get to Fort Point and the Seaport district ... which is where a lot of jobs seem to be these days (both high tech jobs and low-end service jobs). That means that someone can get from, say, Dudley to the Seaport Area with relative ease and efficiency - like, say, the people who need entry level jobs on up.
But that doesn't affect Cybah's commute or the commute of anybody Cybah knows, so the commuter's needs for this connection do not exist. That means its only for tourists. Ok. I get it. That theory of mind thing again.
There isn't much not to like about this
Really, it's a pretty solid proposal that fits an active demand. No, it wouldn't be my own transit priority (extending the OL to Roslindale), but I can see how this would help a lot of people. It would also quite likely stimulate development of the Broadway RL station area as an employment center, which is great for anybody living on the Red Line, and potentially people on a variety of CR lines. As I posted earlier, the best thing about this is the introduction of DMU service to the T's toolbox, but it is also a good proposal in the abstract because it serves an identified need at a reasonably low cost.
Sounds good
Wow. Wicked cool!
DMU
Wouldn't a DMU make more sense on a non peak hours train to Needham than a 1000 decibel switching engine pulling four empty cars and one half full one?
Let's hope
Could also use these for off-peak travel on the Greenbush and Plymouth lines.
The point of the Commuter
The point of the Commuter Rail is to spend so much money building huge glass stations that we don't have any money to run off-peak service.
Off-the-shelf DMUs that could provide frequent service with low operating costs would violate this prime directive.
Same Is True For Subway Lines
The T builds all their stations with grandiose, expensive, and costly-to-maintain designs. People who actually ride the T would rather have ordinary stations, but with more service.
That's how it used to be
That's how it used to be done, with theses things..
http://www.budd-rdc.org/images/small-drm1.png
BCEC to Copley by Silver Line...AND...
"Duplicates current service"...sure, if you're including the Red Line and Green or Orange Line too.
The Silver Line from the Convention Center is the World Trade Center stop. That gets you to South Station. Great, now get on the Red Line and take it to Park Street. Now, swap onto the Green Line (fortunately any line will do) to get to Copley. But if you want to get directly to the Back Bay Station, take the Red Line from South Station to Downtown Crossing, then swap to the Orange Line to go to Back Bay.
In fact, when I asked mbta.com and Google Maps how to get from Back Bay/Copley to the Convention Center it told me about everything BUT the Silver Line. The best bet was to take the train to South Station and then swap to the 7 bus. So, a train line that would skip the 7 bus and a swap to a commuter train wouldn't be a duplicate of the Silver Line and would simplify a lot of lives.
That's a silly argument
Should Seaport Boulevard or Congress Street be closed since Summer Street already runs parallel to them? I mean, after all, they just duplicate similar routes.
Get even more of them, send
Get even more of them, send some down to Middleboro and run intermittent service to and from the Cape to supplement the CapeFlyer. There are applications for this sort of car all over the T system .
Perfect for the Fairmount/Readville Line
And it would be a perfect way of future rail expansions or even new lines. These things are used all over the world, first, second and third world, and work very well. Why they are so uncommon in the U.S., I don't know.
The Federal Rail
The Federal Rail Administration's safety standards made it very hard to operate them in the US until recently.
I hope the ROW is saved in the long run to eventually allow rail freight to the shipping terminal.
Stupid federal regulations
So, have excessive federal regulations on crashworthyness of trains been relaxed to allow lighter, more efficient DMUs that are popular in Europe? If so, its about time.
Seems really stupid to put high demands on vehicles that make them obese and waste fuel when environments where used don't involve high speeds or high risk. Cars are like this too - city drivers and the elderly who avoid highways don't need crash protection designed for highway speeds. Resulting, smaller, lighter vehicles use less raw material, save energy and reduce pollution.
Oh, and Arlington related, from pictures, it looks to me like Bud cars traveled where the Minuteman bike path now is.
Not like a stray freight car ever hit a commuter train
Or a freight (or a commuter rail train) ever got on the wrong track (August 11, 1981 at Beverly Farms): http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/1982/R82_26_...
Or a maintenance crew is in the way and the dispatchers have no idea:
Important move
This important move will integrate the growing business locus at Seaport with the rest of the city. Very excited!
Such exciting news
A great addition to the transportation options. No one has complained more than I about problems in the Seaport District. Just last night I went from the South End to the Seaport and cursed the entire way. I took the commuter rail into South Station which is a nice option if you can time it right. Then I had to get on that miserable bus ... you know, the one that isn't connected to the rest of the T that meanders its way into the Seaport, then goes above ground, stops at a stop light, maneuvers back into a tunnel, then joins regular traffic on its way to the airport. Delightful!
I am giddy about this. Not for me but for anyone going from midtown to the waterfront. It does seem like a circuitous route but still faster than line-changing, I think? And, as everyone is pointing out, perhaps the line can be extended.
I had mused about putting in a cable car from South Station to the Seaport District (or, a monorail) but this is better. And, yes, it would be awesome to extend it as close as possible to the Black Falcon Terminal (and to South Station) to provide options for cruise passengers.
Yes, this benefits tourists - but everyone else, too, by offering options other than cars.
Lowell Line
They have these cars all over Europe and it makes so much sense. Seeing as how the Lowell line is one of the most frequently run lines but often only two passenger cars are open, some of these new cars would be perfect for that line. Run twice as many trains at smaller capacity. It would be cheaper for the state and better for passengers.
A whole 2 passenger cars?
They had a 4 car train with one open this morning - the conductor opened up one of the fallow ones so I could take my bike in there.
A DMU would make much more sense.
What are the interiors like?
Are they set up mostly with seats like the Commuter Rail, or with benches/seats along the walls like the orange line? Seems that it would make the most sense to set up the interior like a subway, since it would hold a crap-ton more people.
Beginning of New Era?
There is a lot that can be done with DMUs here:
Fairmount Line
Seaport-Back Bay service...
...which could then run the Worcester Line to New Balance and possibly Newton
...perhaps a Cambridge crosstown connector via the Grand Junction, with a transfer station at BU/Nuevo Harvard. We'd see less community opposition to a truly local service (vs Worcester trains blowing though Kendall Sq)
Not to mention Middleboro-Cape service, as someone mentioned.
As an anon points out, DMUs have historically been stymied by regulations in the US. DMUs that share track with 'real' trains have to be built to withstand impact with locomotives and freight cars.
DMUs operating successfully in Austin and Plano/Dallas are actually European models. The local agencies won exemption from FRA rules because those trains do not share their tracks with any others.
If our DMUs are to share tracks with MBCR, AMTK, CSX, BM, and Mass Costal trains, they're going to be built to high impact standards.
One final note: Massport has been trying to reactivate the South Boston track in question, and they actually did some work on it recently. There are rumors of investors looking at far-flung seaport property for actual industrial use (importing cement was the one I heard), as well as rumors of Harpoon wanting freight rail service for inbound raw materials.
I'm still waiting for a
I'm still waiting for a monorail over the Greenway connecting North and South Stations - Seattle did it 50 years ago. And the Silver Line is a joke...have you ever seen people with heavy suitcases trying to board one of those cramped gas-cans from the terminals? Not exactly a world-class experience, in spite of the short distance from the airport. Should have had a light rail looping around all the terminals into the TWT to South Station. Maybe one day we can use the existing Silver Line infrastructure and build a third tunnel sometime by 2150. And where are our jetpacks and underwater bubble cities?
yeah but...:"over the greenway"...
We took down a raised transportation structure to create the greenway...now we'd be putting up a raised structure over the greenway all over again. I get that a monorail is different than a raised highway, but a better idea would be to put the link to north & south stations underground as they should have done in the first place.
...but...but....monorails are
...but...but....monorails are cool! Say it with me...MONORAIL! MONORAIL! MONORAIL!
I'm pretty sure no one in
I'm pretty sure no one in Seattle actually uses the monorail for transportation.
It's too bad we didn't have the foresight and funds to put in rail from north to south station when the whole corridor was dug up 15 years ago.
Actually, people do
People who work downtown use it to shuttle around downtown when it isn't August.
I can tell you that when I
I can tell you that when I was there people certainly do, though most of them were tourists, as it connected the Space Needle with shops downtown.
If a monorail was built between North and South Stations you could be sure people, not just tourists, would use it.
Is it really such a crazy idea? It wouldn't have to cut right down the Greenway, it could meander from each side of Atlantic Ave and cut across only in certain spots. Someone give me a rendering! Only problem...oooh, a thin shadow might be cast!
No way!
IT WOULD CAST SHADOWS!!!
Video About The New DMU Trains
Here's a great video that explains what a DMU train is and what it's like to drive one. It demonstrates how the trains can quickly get up to speed; as fast as 65 mph; and then stop almost instantly (to the apparent amusement of the passengers). The DMU trains are economical to operate and adapt quickly to traffic demands by adding more DMU cars.
Parts 2, 3, and 4 explain more about how to drive a DMU train, and how the operator can repair or bypass a failed engine or braking system, to quickly get a disabled train rolling again.
The Convention Center station seems to be rather isolated
If the goal is to serve the Seaport as a whole, rather than the Convention Center exclusively, then it might make a lot of sense to build the station a little bit further down the existing track.
The alternate location would allow for direct pedestrian access to the Convention Center, World Trade Center, Fan Pier and Seaport Square. The current proposal to stop on the side of the Convention Center doesn't allow for any of that.
Seems like a no brainer.
Any shortcomings baked into the design now will outlive us all. This should be done right from Day 1.
This is crazy...
Literally, in a strange coincidence, we were discussing this idea in the "Crazy Transit Pitches" thread just before it was announced.
Technically, if they build the missing connection, it's possible to put some sort of diesel-powered rail vehicle near the convention center, and roll it on a roundabout way to Back Bay station. Does that mean it's a good idea, or good transit? Well, it's going to take a lot more explanation if they want to make that point.
How about trialing this route for the next 2 years with a cheap bus and see if it attracts anyone due to the single-seat ride? Then you can model how much better a (maybe) faster rail ride would do.
And, if they want to solve some current problems, take some of this money and put a tiny fraction of it towards running more trips on the overburdened key bus routes like the 66 or the 1.
If you think the FRA might have a problem with DMUs...
Imagine the fit the FRA would throw if the MBTA decided to run a bus down the tracks between Back Bay and the Seaport! Not to mention how bumpy it would be..
Seriously though, throwing money at the #1 or #66 isn't going to do much when there are five buses in a row followed by a 40 minute gap (now running 60' articulated or double decker buses on those routes might go a long way).
Silly!
Maybe a hi-rail bus hmm! I hear the Japanese have experimented with such. Not what I meant of course ;)
The problems with the 1 and the 66 (and others) are caused by overcrowding. That leads to long dwell times, which leads to bunching.
But I have to say, one of the reasons people shove themselves onto the 66 is because they know there won't be another one for 20+ minutes. Running one every ten minutes all day, on weekends too, would be helpful, instead of falling back to the crummy 20 minute headways in the supposed "off peak."
The more I think and read about this Track 61 idea, the more insane it sounds. This has to cross over every single route on the south side. It'll be like the 66 of rail routes, except it's getting jammed up by Acelas and big old commuter trains, and moving through tracks never intended to carry passengers.
DMU for you?
Nice idea but as far as I know no one is manufacturing any DMU units anywhere in the USA. SO there would be a need to ramp up a manufacturing facility in order to comply with "Buy America."
The DMU pictured in the Globe piece states it was manufactured by Colorado Railcar. True. But that was a number of years ago, less than a handful were actually manufactured as test units and the company has since gone out of business and their assets purchased by another rail manufacturer. I think 1-2 of the test units are in use somewhere in Florida - or were. The Globe failed to mention this.
The DMU's pictured would have one power car and up to 2 additional non-powered units allowing for a 3-car trainset. You could then link up an additional set to make 6, and so forth.
So if you want to see how France does DMU's look at this and weep.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/videos/videopage-...
Mind you... this was in 2007
does it have to burn deisel?
Aren't there cleaner alternatives?
ULSD
Ultra-low sulfur diesel is a requirement for trains that started in 2012. ULSD has under 15ppm sulfur in the diesel. While this doesn't *directly* prevent the pollution of diesel, what it does is allow far more sophisticated and improved pollution measures to be used in the engine/exhaust that would have otherwise been destroyed by the previous levels of sulfur (closer to 500 ppm or over 30x more sulfur than today's diesel).
So, these diesel trains will create far less pollution than previous diesel engines.
What would be nice is a diesel/electric/battery hybrid since the train is going to be stopping every 20 minutes or so when it hits the other end of the line, it would regenerate a crap-ton (that's a metric unit) of energy and probably have huge pollution and fuel cost savings.
Flawed plan in linking Seaport to Back Bay
Cross-posting this from railroad.net:
Just to be explicitly clear as to what MassDOT is trying to pull off here: a new station must be constructed at the Convention Center where Summer St crosses the Haul Road, trains must proceed across the Cypher St grade crossing (which needs to be fully upgraded), trains will then proceed across diamonds in one of the few double track sections of the Old Colony line, proceed across two (at least) of the busiest tracks in the entire Southampton facility, cross the tracks of the Fairmount Line which the MBTA/MassDOT hope to get 10 minute headways on, go around the not-so-gentle curve of Widdett Circle, merge back into Fairmount/Old Colony traffic in approaching the Cove Wye, make it across the three most congested train tracks in the entire state, and then dwell for reverse on of the Worcester Line tracks at Back Bay (a line which needs improved schedules and more frequent service).
And we're doing this why? Because the Silver Bus is deemed insufficient before they're even running the maximum volume of buses. (Another reason I would like to call the Big Dig the gift that keeps on giving - years later, we're stilling looking for multi-million dollar band aids and half assed alternatives)
As an alternative to the state's plan
I offer this:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=2176563141070...
More expensive, absolutely. But in the long run this doesn't fuck up established and planned commuter rail service. Per mile, it's perhaps the cheapest tunnel you can build in Boston. It also improves reliability and mobility of the entire Green Line and SL2 is converted to light rail. More bang for your buck, I'd suggest.
Track 61
I was involved in the early days of the BCEC project.
Whilst I was (very much) a youngster then, and I remember lots of discussion about the preservation of the Track 61 rail ROW (many wanted to forget it because it would have been much cheaper), I have absolutely no recollection of it ever being discussed in the context of passenger traffic.
Rather, I remember it being discussed in the context of preserving rail access to the port (i.e., to the water), and I remember thinking: "well, sure, that makes sense, but it does not seem like anyone has much faith that Boston will ever become a big shipping port again if we are going to preserve only one track to the water." But then again, those ships had already sailed...to Elizabeth, etc.
I think that this is an interesting plan, and I applaud Mr. Davey et al. for at least getting the conversation going on these things, but as many commenters have pointed out, this particular plan has serious flaws. One of the biggest thing that makes "rapid" transit appealing to people is getting there faster/easier than you would with other forms of transportation. I don't think that this will deliver on either aspect.
I won't beat my dead horse, but the answer to this and many other issues is an inside 128 RER-type system, which is, unfortunately, not forthcoming in most of our lifetimes.
Sensible Improvements that should have been
None of this would even be discussed if:
By the way for those of you who've apparently never been to a large conference or convention -- chartered buses do fine as long as the city traffic permits them to move about
DMUs to the cape
Building on the idea of a cape-middleboro dmu service to compliment the CapeFlyer, this video shows how DMUs did work for a time http://youtu.be/qfANNpAPI5k?t=6m