City Councilors Andrea Campbell (Dorchester) and Kim Janey (Roxbury) want to look at ways to increase black and Latino enrollment at the city's three exam schools - including possibly replacing scores from the ISEE exam now used to help determine entrance with results from MCAS tests.
Campbell - who herself went to Boston Latin School - and Janey say the ISEE is fundamentally unfair to minority students because it includes topics not taught in Boston grades before kids take the test for seventh-grade enrollment, including algebra, which means kids whose parents pay for expensive prep classes are better prepared. BPS does offer its own free prep classes, but has had problems enrolling minority students for them.
In their formal request for a hearing on the issue, which the council will consider on Wednesday, the two councilors say that while BPS as a whole is 75% black and Latino, only 40% of the three exam schools are - a rate that drops to 20% at Boston Latin School.
In addition to ISEE, the councilors say they also want to look at grading differences between BPS and local private schools, which might also hurt minority applicants to the exam schools.
The councils regular Wednesday meeting begins at noon in its fifth-floor chambers in City Hall.
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Comments
"I got 3 Fs in 7th grade math
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 10:13pm
"I got 3 Fs in 7th grade math."
When I was at Boston Latin in the stone age the lowest grade they gave was an "E". And I should know, because I got a lot of them.
Times change ...
By adamg
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 11:08pm
They give out Fs now.
What's the difference?
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 9:29am
I'm just trying to figure out exactly what the difference is between and E and an F. A fail is a fail. A fail leads to certain consequences (i.e. not graduating or whatever). Does it really matter what the "gradation" of the fail is? These places drown in minutia.
Moot point
By adamg
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 9:52am
BLS apparently used to fail kids with an E. Now they do it with an F.
The subjects were more advanced
By Cleary Squared
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:38pm
The curriculum was tough, and because the subjects were advanced, the grades at an exam school would be slightly higher than a regular school.
My only "F" at Boston Latin Academy was in Honors Algebra II (freshman year). It was my only one in the 16 years I've attended school - after my parents threatened to pull me out of there if they saw another one. (I ended up with a C- for the year, but I did get put into regular Geometry the next year.)
Just one factoid
By adamg
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 8:25am
Among the factors UMass Amherst uses to determine who gets in is the number of honors classes an applicant has taken. They consider every class at BLS an honors class.
Certainly
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:36am
BLS remains a great choice for parents who will think they succeeded if their kids get into UMass.
I don't know about that ...
By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:46pm
I suppose my National Merit Scholar is doing poorly to go to UMass. Yes, those $75K/year jobs being dangeled in his face when he graduates are a certain sign of failure.
Meanwhile, it is actually getting more difficult to get into UMass.
Don't feed the troll
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 1:15pm
He's probably busy enough trying to justify his $100k in student debt from Tufts or Brown as it is.
Your National Merit Scholar
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 1:36pm
Probably got more sleep, was less abused by teachers, and had more fun at Meffuh High (#78 on the Boston Mag list), for the same result. I'm sure he's doing well to go there, is doing great there, and will achieve the same kind of professional success his mother did. All without pretending Meffuh High is the best school in the universe, and anybody who wants it to be better is just jealous.
Did a BLS student beat you up once?
By adamg
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 4:57pm
I mean, that would be kind of unlike them, at least the ones I know, but you seem particularly overwrought on the topic. I guess it's good to finally let all that anger out.
Did I hurt your feelings
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:12pm
By not being impressed?
Nah, but your ignorance is showing
By adamg
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:53pm
Yes, BLS can be a tough environment, but your mention of "abuse" shows you still think it's 1979 or something, which tells me you really don't have a clue about current conditions - did you know they admit girls now?
Kids at BLS thee days have actually helpful guidance counselors and all sorts of support and tutoring programs. It's no longer a junior-grade Paper Chase, even if they still gave that stupid "look to your left, now look to your right" spiel to my daughter's freshman class.
Football, too
By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 6:49pm
He got to play football.
Point taken :-)
By Cleary Squared
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:12pm
IIRC, even the honors courses at BLA/BLS carried significantly more weight in determining admissions than the normal courses. When I applied to the colleges I did (all non-Ivy league except Brandeis), this was likely the factor in me getting accepted to all of them - and I was a straight "B" student.
Nope
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:14pm
(all non-Ivy league including Brandeis)
Ivy League:
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale.
The UAA is better than the Ivy League
By Waquiot
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 8:32pm
The member schools are more academically oriented.
A hundred years ago the Ivy League was what the SEC is now, just with more history.
I had to look that up
By Sock_Puppet
Wed, 10/17/2018 - 5:31am
I'd never heard of the UAA. Some good schools there. But better? I dunno.
There's a debate there
By Waquiot
Wed, 10/17/2018 - 8:41am
Of course, the NESCAC might also want to chime in, but I put the NESCAC on the level of the Ivy League- full of excellent liberal arts colleges, but not quite MIT or the University of Chicago.
Made me look
By Sock_Puppet
Wed, 10/17/2018 - 9:25am
Another thing I had no idea was a thing. NESCAC sounds like instant coffee to make you throw up.
It's certainly true that small liberal arts colleges don't do a good job of being big universities, but I think one could say that large universities also don't do as good a job at being liberal arts colleges. There are plenty of people out there who say an undergraduate education at Williams is superior to an undergraduate education at Harvard, and it may well be for their purposes.
Is it just a weird historical accident that we define the strata of colleges by who they play sports with?
Discriminatory effect
By Sock_Puppet
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 8:58pm
"the ISEE is fundamentally unfair to minority students because it includes topics not taught in Boston grades before kids take the test for seventh-grade enrollment, including algebra..."
If I follow the argument correctly, it's not that white kids do better on subjects they haven't been taught in school yet, it's that because the BPS elementary schools are behind what the private schools teach in the same grades, and the BPS elementary schools have a higher proportion of minority kids, any test given equally to both the private school kids and the public school kids will have a discriminatory effect.
White Parents
By White Parent
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 10:46pm
Not really. My kids are going through BPS but I am a white parent engaged in their lives, am educated and can teach above and beyond the BPS curriculum (algebra) with no problem at home, can pay private tutors if they need it, and make the effort for my kids to attend free BPS tutoring sessions. It’s the norm. Let’s face it.
AWC?
By tachometer
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:28am
I know some kids at BLS and they said that the AWC definitely prepped them for both the exam and the school's demands. Do you know if they cover algebra (or the other "untaught" topics) in AWC prior to the exam? That would definitely change the argument about it not being on the curricula at BPS before the exam.
THats good
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:12am
Thank you for the honesty. Many white parents who live in Boston are in a totally different world than minority parents who are trying to eek it out in one of the most inequitable expensive and segregated places in the country. Combine that with poverty, language barriers, dangerous neighborhoods, cold weather, and missing bus drivers and you have a bulk of stressed parents who can't offer much academic help to their kids come 5th grade.
Most white parents who live in Boston have at least one degree, live in very safe neighborhoods, English is their native tongue, and they have household incomes of 80k+. As long as the city and school system are segregated and discrimination pervades every part of economic and civic life in Boston and Massachusetts this will not change.
More discrimination against Asians!
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 6:02am
I have news for you - good students who love learning do it on their own, reading and learning material beyond the curriculum in libraries and online. Sometimes parents support their kids who love to learn, but not necessarily. These are the students deserving of advanced education, not what is mass produced by the education machine.
Oh, really
By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:53pm
It is the STUDENTS seeking more learning because ASIAN. Must be some Asian gene, eh? (/snark). And they go to the library and just naturally soak up exactly what is going to be on the test.
Can't possibly be the result of parents prohibiting them from playing by taking all their free time while they pay people to groom them and drill them and make them into little ego monuments. Nope.
If you believe that, I have a nice used bridge to sell you - goes over the Charles in Charlestown, great location ...
Guess what that "extra" stuff is testing - WALLETS. It certainly isn't testing self-directed learning. I was a geek kid and even I didn't follow a special test prep curriculum when I went to the library to learn more about things I wasn't taught in school.
No need to reinvent the wheel
By Boston_Bloke
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 6:46am
If parent's make good choices and prioritize the right things their kids have just as much a chance as getting into exam schools as anyone else.
Smoke and Mirrors
By Anonymous1
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 7:45am
This hearing seems more for show. Many of these things are real issues, but have already been addressed by BPS. If you know BPS at all, then you know they they are already in the process of changing the grading system because the 1-4 system puts public school kids at a disadvantage when it comes to exam school admissions. They have also announced plans to give the ISEE during the school day starting in 2019.
If you want to fix exam school admissions, you can't wait until the sixth grade- changes need to be made at the elementary level. Let's increase rigor. Let's get rid of the investigations math curriculum, which is basically arts and crafts, and get back to some real work. Most importantly, let's improve reading instruction in the elementary grades so that all kids can read by third grade.
Politicians don't ask for these changes because they will take years to show results. Changes made in K1 will take five years to show up in AWC test results, and 6 years to show up in exam school results. It's not sexy, it can't be fixed in a hearing, but it's the only way to effect real change. Anything else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I think they're getting more creative
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:35am
Every time they pull this piñata out and take a few whacks at it they come up with something new. Eventually they'll get somewhere.
Two ideas I heard this time that I found interesting were:
-Save a couple seats for BLS at every elementary school in BPS;
-Benchmark applicant grades at their institutions.
I like the first one because it's a backhanded way to address segregation in Boston. If everybody knows that two seats at each elementary school are set aside for the top exam school, middle-class white people will angle to get their kids into historically underperforming minority schools to try to snipe those seats. This will spill over into housing. It might end up reducing segregation.
I think the second proposal is reasonable and in keeping with what high schools already do for colleges - they prepare a report that shows the percent of kids who get different GPA tranches so the colleges can interpret grades in context. It's kind of an open secret hereabouts that some parochial schools goose the Math and English grades of their fifth graders who plan to apply to exam schools. Benchmarking would help counteract that.
Benchmarking already exists I believe
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:47am
BLS does regard grades from say Holy Name differently than the Brooke or the Ohrenberger in my understanding.
Unlike college admissions where students are coming from tens of thousands of schools potentially there are a fixed number of 6th grade schools potential applicants can be coming from so it's pretty feasible.
And the watering down continues
By Gary C
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:11pm
That is not how it works. If the top two kids from School A are not as strong as kids #3 and #4 at School B, why should the weaker students be admitted? Everyone takes the same test and you are judged on that and your previous grades. You can argue about the appropriateness of the ISEE, but there must be a level playing field and setting aside ANY seats for any reason is unacceptable.
Look into it?
By Carmella
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:49am
They want to look into how the kids get into exam schools? I’ll tell you how; they study and take a test. They look at their past performance via report cards from the 5th grade. The kids who study hardest, exhibit good grades, and have the aptitude get into the schools. There’s really no secret to it. Parents who want their kids in these schools make sure homework is complete and the child isn’t following behind. That increases the child’s chances immensely. Some kids, no matter how hard they work, don’t have what it takes to get in. I fell into that category. Actually, I’m lying. I worked hard enough to keep my parents from yelling at me. The end result was that I didn’t get into the exam schools. There was nothing racist about it. That’s what some are trying to turn this into— a race issue.
The 1950s called
By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:49pm
They want their easily digestible mild story line back.
I'm surprised that even 20%
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:51am
I'm surprised that even 20% of BLS is black/latino. But I think the basic research question that needs to be studied is how does the racial breakdown of Boston exam schools compare to exam/magnet schools in other American cities?
The racial performance gap is not a local problem, so you need to normalize against that.
Super Hot Take
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:53am
...but I would guess if you're a UHub Poster who reads frequently here... and is opposed to BLS making admissions fairer (because that all this is doing, making it fairer let's be honest/)... then you're probably very YIMBY and think that 'locals' are ignorant and annoying. I could be wrong.
Some people never think of the working class families in this city and the extremely well documented structural racism they face.
MCAS is something all the kids prepare for they all take compulsory and is what we use to measure our public schools by. Seems like a no-brainer but (white) BLS alumni will probably throw a hissyfit. Commenters here who want to enroll their young children in BLS one day may feel there is some future spot being 'taken away' from them because standards are 'being lowered.' Can we truly objectively say the ISEE is a higher standard than the MCAS and can we objectively say testing on untaught content is fair? The answer to both is no-only in Boston would this debate even be a debate, honestly using the ISEE damn near sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Some good points and some not
By Gary C
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:22pm
As long as everyone takes the same test, maybe the MCAS would be a better exam to use. There are operational issues since private school kids don't take the MCAS....that would need some state intervention to resolve. You'd need to give a year or two notice so that each school's curriculum can be synced with using MCAS. But sure, I'm cool with using MCAS.
If everyone takes the same exam (which they do now, it just happens to be the ISEE) and they are judged by their test score and their grades (and nothing else) then the system is fair. Everyone knows what the rules are and what is expected. Anyone can take the test and the best and brightest are admitted. Sure, there's tons of racism in Boston, but deciding who gets into the exam schools is as unbiased as it could be.
judged by their test score and their grades
By tachometer
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:37pm
Not so fast. One of the questions they're looking into is grade comparison. If there is grade inflation (or any significant difference in grading standards) between the public, parochial, private and charter schools then you are not comparing apples to apples there either.
HMM
By Jordan Marcano
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:21am
I remember before I took the exam 12 years ago they offered an summer schooling program for about 30-45 days in Boston Latin school. they told us what will b on the exam and gave us text book to assist. I went to Mattahunt elementary in Mattapan and I’m a Dominican American. A lot of us from that school got an opportunity to go and it was a majority black school and I was 1 of the 3 people to go and only 1 was black out of a 30-40 kids who graduated elementary the same year as me. TAKE ADAVANTAGE OF ANY PROGRAM I SACRIFICED HALF MY SUMMER AND LEARNED ALOT FOR THAT MONTH. We have internet now all of the hurdles aren’t as significant from 10-15 everyone has internet to take any course.
MY HiSPANIC AND BLACK MEN BE IN YOUR KIDS LIFE AND TEACH THEM THAT LIFE ISNT FAIR AND THAT THIS SOCIETY ISNT MADE BY US SO OF COURSE ITS NOT MADE TO BENEFIT US. IT ALL STARTS AT HOME
O'Bryant is fantastic and diverse
By Mom of O'Bryant...
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:25am
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/profiles/student.aspx...
I came here expecting to
By Anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:07pm
I came here expecting to disagree with the Councillors but instead I am annoyed. How can you have a public school that requires additional learning outside of school to gain access to? If my child is a high performer in their current school then I expect them to have been exposed to all the things that will be on that test. If my child is a top performer in their school yet has never seen math with letters... but math with letters is on the test then I demand someone turn their attention back onto the schools my kids were in. Test prep should betest prep... not the first time my child sees the subject matter.
Privatize??
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:14pm
Good lord.. at this point, I would much prefer if the exam schools just privatized (even though it won't realistically happen) and retain some legacy rather than watering down their academic standards even more. Students who qualify to get in based on academic merit should be the ones getting in regardless of race, gender, etc. It should be pretty straightforward.
Can we put more efforts into
By Boston Resident
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:39pm
Can we put more efforts into improving other bps? Those schools need our attention.
Sure but there's the other huge issue
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 7:38pm
The Latin alumni association raises enormous amounts of money to fund theater, art, sports programming at the school which is why it attracts a lot of kids. There's a lot of institutional pride about the school being the top school in the system AND being a challenging school which will test your child's academic mettle, work ethic, etc...
If you just say, eh it's a lottery with a test now, I bet a lot of that funding slowly dries up as BLS becomes just another BPS high school. Maybe that's more fair, maybe that's a loss for the system - it depends on your values I guess but it's not a trivial amount of money.
From a BLS email today from a parents group:
"This past year, the Headmaster had under $100 per student to spend for expenses beyond keeping the lights on in the building and paying faculty salaries. As I’m sure you can imagine the cost of providing one of the best educational experiences in the country is far greater than that modest amount.
So over the past few years the BLSA has provided about $3MM in annual funding to the school, including some of the larger ticket items as follows that are budgeted for this school year:
Subsidize the school’s athletic program with almost $500,000, including most expenses of Junior Varsity and Freshman teams;
Provide $260,000 for academic technology support;
Support programming for the arts with funding of nearly $175,000 to support bands, singing groups, and extracurricular activities;
Fund 100% of Saturday Success School, which helps our students thrive academically at BLS
Additionally the BLSA funds the following BLS programs/centers that you may or may not be aware of:
Clough Center for Global Understanding
Wolk Center – Capstone and Entrepreneurship
Seevak Facing History & Ourselves
McCarthy Institute for Transition & Support
Schawbel College Research Center
Keefe Library & Media Center
Deitch Leadership Institute
Ward, Seevak, Deitch and Babbitt Fellowships
Exam School Initiative
BLS alumni and friends provide about 94% of the BLSA Annual Fund contributions, with parents donating the remaining 6% share."
This is all done outside of the BPS budget - this is all for a free high school. That's a pretty great asset in the abstract to have for the kids in the city. Would it be great if more schools had these resources? Of course, but then that's a bit like telling folks who give money to say the EDF that they should give money to the ACLU or something. I don't see a good, fair mechanism for diverting that money elsewhere without ruining that part of the school. BLS is certainly not from getting tons of resources from BPS which should be spent elsewhere based on the weighted funding formula.
I do not believe these funding players care about the school being mostly white/Asian (but can't say that for sure of course, I'm sure there's some bad eggs involved) but those donors are pretty heavily invested in the concept of the school being the most academically challenging school in the system and an exam admission school.
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