An arresting image in Newton
Owen Byrne reports what happened after he took this photo at the Newton Highlands stop on the Riverside line last night:
After taking this picture and a few more, the driver of the oncoming train told me that I better put my camera away and stop taking pictures, otherwise I risked arrest for aiding terrorists.
As an immigrant to the US, I'm generally not a big fan of being arrested, and so I tend to be more subservient than I should be, but this guy made angry. I stopped taking pictures, but when I came home I looked up the official policy, and I'm pretty sure that this picture is acceptable. You can walk into this station even when trains are not running, there's no private property signs nor signs prohibiting photography.
It was just plain old harassment. Next time it happens I'm going to get the guy's name and file a complaint.
Once again, official MBTA photo policy allows photography on T property, provided no flash is used (no flash was used) and photographers are willing to show an ID to a T official or cop.
Photo posted under this Creative Commons license.
Earlier:
T employees more aggressively enforcing non-existent policy against photographers.
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Comments
Is there a photo-terror link?
Great photo!
About this anti-photo business on public transport: Can someone tell me which terrorist attacks, exactly, were preceded by terrorists photographing specific sites (potential targets)?
Thats great.
Lets file a complaint against a guy who is just telling you what the policy is. How about file a complaint against the person who made the policy?
the policy is not what the
the policy is not what the driver says, if you look it up. You CANNOT be arrested for taking pictures on the MBTA. You are only required to provide an id if requested. This is far from what the driver said, so he deserves to receive a complaint. He's abusing his power through meaningless threats.
Enforcing false rules
Enforcing false rules is objectionable to Americans as a group who believe in laws and fair, even-handed enforcement, but not arbitrary enforcement of illegitimate laws. Moreover, authority that insists on compliance with false laws are reasonably perceived as bullies, asserting an authority for which there is no legitimacy. Enforcing false rules delegitimizes authority.
How about ...
Having officials and police who know and understand what the law is and not make shit up out of their ass? Who face consequences for their belligerent ignorance?
Kind of minimal knowledge,that.
DING DING DING
We have a winner.
This guy should never be allowed to work as a public servant again.
Terror - photo link
Moscow, London, Tokyo subway attacks were all preceeded by photo and physical surveillance. Almost every terrorist of which I am aware has been preceeded by such surveillance, and in many cases, actual dry runs. There was also substantial suveillance of the WTC before the 1993 bombing. It is this well-known history of terrorists conducting dry runs (and in the case of the plot of the late 90s plot to blow up 12 airliners over the Pacific, not-so-dry runs, where "test" bombs killed several people) that makes security people nervous about this kind of stuff.
That said, Newton Centre (which, strangely, appears to have be re-named Newton "Center" on some of the T's signs) is not the most likely location for an attack, as transit attacks generally target subway stations for obvious reasons.
There is, however, one thing about Newton Center and several other surface stations in the area that would cause me a little concern if I were the T's security chief. The area has a well-known high concentration of Jewish folks. It is not a coincidence that most of the attacks in public portions of airports over the years (LAX 2002, Vienna and Rome in 1985) have been directed at persons waiting in line at El Al ticket counters (many people were killed by assault rifles and/or grenades in those attacks). People who are perceived (correctly or not) to be friendly to Israel, and particularly its government, are targets for certain kinds of terrorists. I think an attack at a place like the Newton Center T stop is a low probability event, but it's probably higher than the probability of a terrorist attack taking place at the Pride's Crossing commuter rail stop (is that even still open?).
Clarification
In an attempt to head off some snarkiness, I should have said that the station looked like Newton Centre to me, but I suppose it could have been one of the others in Newton as well. Regardless, my comment applies, more or less, to most surface stations on the D and C branches, and even a couple on the B line as they have similar populations.
Causation/correlation confused again
1. Stopping those photographers who aren't hiding what they are doing, won't stop terrorists from taking pictures of pretty things. Cell phones have cameras now - very high quality ones. To the extreme, there are $100 "spy cameras" that look like shirt buttons and affix to a shirt where a button would be.
2. They can blow the place up without having pretty pictures. Will you stop anyone sketching? What if a guy walks the length of the platform? He could be measuring it!!!!
3. (trump card) The T's policy allows photography. The driver was incorrect, as so many bullying T employees have been over the years, and should STFU and drive his train.
Your unstated conclusion that threatening photographers somehow "stops terrorism" is without merit.
my point was just that....
This driver is probably just doing what some management guy is telling him what to do (advising people not to take photos).
So when this driver is up for some promotion or something in 5 or 10 years, he might have complaints from people like this guy. The management guy on the other hand might not have any complaints against him, when he should for making up things.
So what?
Pete, you've invented that whole scenario.
let's say for a minute that it's true. If the driver said nothing at all, then the "management guy" would never know anything had happened at all. Just about a zero chance, unless he "has an internet" (doubtful, they're cavemen), found the photo on flickr, researched the exact date and time, dug through records to try to figure out what near-unseeable train might be approaching at that time..
Nah. The driver was just being a dick and deserves to be reported. If the driver was following policy (Photography is permitted) then there would be nothing placed in his file. Their union would never allow it.
Im just saying.
If management tells drivers to advise people not to take pictures, do you want drivers to ignore those orders, just because management won't see them not telling people?
I don't know, (and I assume you and the OP don't know) what management is or isn't telling these drivers.
And yea, if the driver was being an a-hole about it, then you can file a complaint.
should have put it here.....
My point was just that...
This driver is probably just doing what some management guy is telling him what to do (advising people not to take photos).
So when this driver is up for some promotion or something in 5 or 10 years, he might have complaints from people like this guy. The management guy on the other hand might not have any complaints against him, when he should for making up things.
T Policy is working!
since there has never been a successful terror plot against the T, one can only assume the prohbibition on photography has deterred would be evil-doers. kudos to the attentive train operator from last night
Poe's Law
I'm calling Poe's Law on this post. It is either an absurd satire of the "pet rocks save lives!" variety OR some red-blooded patriot's honest opinion on things like why we still have to take our shoes off at the airport. You can't tell the difference because it's so satirical as to actually wrap around and become reality again...or so stupid as to seem satirical.
Poe's Law.
Um, no. I believe he was
Um, no. I believe he was parroting the line used by Bush apologists that no terrorism in the U.S. since 9/11 justifies all the excesses of the past 8 years.
The MBTA's photo policy
changed fairly recently (within the last year or so). Photographers used to need a permit from the T to take photos on T property. Maybe the driver wasn't aware of the change. The T isn't great at clearly communicating with its employees.
No...
As stated, you can take photographs on MBTA property without a flash, and by showing an MBTA official, if asked, for an ID.
You only need a permit if you will be using a tripod.
I think you missed the point of my comment
I was not arguing for a particular conclusion, so I am not sure how my non-conclusion can be without merit. My comment was purely factual in nature, and made no conclusion, explicit or implied, that "threatening photographers somehow 'stops terrorism'".
The poster before me, much earlier today, asked a very specific question, to wit:
"Can someone tell me which terrorist attacks, exactly, were preceded by terrorists photographing specific sites (potential targets)?"
I answered said question, which asked about photography preceding (not causing) terrorist attacks, and elaborated on why security people are intersted in people who are taking pictures of infrastructure assets. As I regularly deal with security folks, I was merely trying to provide some insight for folks who don't. I'm sorry if you didn't find it insightful or interesting. Oh, well.
Finally, no one in her right mind would ever argue that taking pictures causes terrorism, so I am not sure how there could have been any confusion between correlation and causation on that score. The only thing I would be confused about if presented with such nonsense is why I was wasting my time listening to someone who would speak it.
Terror threat nonsense
Did photography offer the terrorists an advantage they would have not otherwise had by simply walking around with their eyes open? Yes terrorists tend to take photos, but I'm willing to believe they would still do the same things without them.
Your average commuter walks through the same two stations (or more) at least twice a day at least five days a week. They know every inch of the place whether they think about this fact or not. If one can walk into a space and see what exists there, then the cat is essentially out of the bag. Banning photography is like the last administration declaring declassified material classified again. It accomplishes nothing and offers a ridiculous illusion of safety.
I take photos of the T because I find it interesting. My intentions are utterly benign and the T actually KNOWS this for a fact. The Transit Police ran numerous background checks on me back in the days of the photo permit. In fact, the T ran one every month before handing out every pass. It was ridiculous but it afforded me a level of protection. Now I don't have that option, but I do have a piece of paper in the form of the photo policy I've been told "is a lie", and I find myself accused of violating nonsense rules that don't even exist.
The day T employees make good on their threats to arrest me for still photography sans flash or tripod, while filming in a non-restricted area is the day the MBTA gets handed a very nice lawsuit.
umm... 9-11
umm... 9-11
yeah, because taking
yeah, because taking pictures of some of the most photographed buildings in the world helps you crash an airplane into them?
Dear lord, nearly every other terrorist attack had an element of photography other than this one. Why would you say that?
9-11 was EIGHT YEARS AGO
and is of no relevance whatsoever to this incident. We need to begin putting 9/11 behind us and return to normalcy.
New Normalcy, Post 9/11 Style
Unfortunately for all of us, "normalcy" post 9/11 means being more attentive to possible domestic or international terrorism. Not to the Cheney/Rumsfeld Let's-Watch/Suspect-Everyone level, but certainly to the point of realizing that there are folks out there who are actively scouting opportunities. I'm sure if we knew all that the FBI and Interpol know, we'd be paranoid maniacs.
It is very very sad that every new terrible event, small or large, causes us to have our guard up more than before. Whether it's kids no longer being able to walk to/from school, or unconsciously checking a seal on a bottle of vitamins, or wondering why someone is taking pictures of transportation facilities, life has changed.
It's enough to lead to a discussion that detracts from the beauty of photographs like this one.
Re: New Normalcy, Post 9/11 style
Unfortunately, we have made this "new normalcy" with both our hubris and our paranoia. It was unrealistic to think that this country would be forever safe from any terrorist acts, given our foreign policy, and ignorant to believe that anything we implement will actually stop all terrorist acts from happening again.
All our "new normalcy" has done, unfortunately, is handed the terrorists the largest victory in their entire existence. The goal of terrorists is to force a change in the lives of their targets. This makes the 9/11 terrorist probably the most successful people in the history of the world. They won.
And the sad part is that we only have ourselves to blame by buying into the notion that "things have changed."
Illegal or or not.
Either way, maybe it is not too bright of an idea using what appears to be a flash and distracting the driver of a train.
Flashes are indeed bright
The distance that any significant light from a flash travels, is about 30 feet. The train is hundreds of feet away.
I suppose there is some risk that the driver would steer the train off the tracks. No, wait. that's not right.
Oh, someone's corrected this. No flash was used. Never mind.
My one complaint is he seems
My one complaint is he seems to be standing over the tracks at a time when the gates would be closed and people would be advised to be off the tracks.
No gates at this station
This is a Green Line D station, not commuter rail.
No. He's standing on the
No. He's standing on the black asphalt, not the tracks. Thats legal. Thats also called a platofrm in some circles If a train is coming, the station is open. If no train is open, the station is still open, because surface stations never close.
Using flash is not generally permitted. He did not use it. Using a tripod is not allowed. It is not clear if he was or was not using a tripod.
Telling someone to stop what they're doing, when what they're doing is legal...is not legal.
as the link in the original post showed...
you can look at the metadata page from the picture, which reads that the flash was "Off, Did not fire".
no flash was used.
how does this picture even
how does this picture even look like a flash was used? Have you ever seen a photograph where flash was used? There's MORE light, not huge dark areas (trees, tracks) or the ability to see the night sky.
Let's get a few things straight.
PHOTOGRAPHY ON PUBLIC PROPERTY = LEGAL
PHOTOGRAPHY OF ALL THINGS IN PUBLIC VIEW = LEGAL.
For those who are not aware of a great photo rights site, check out Photography is Not a Crime at http://carlosmiller.com/
Commenters: You can talk yourselves blue in the face with 9/11 this and that. If you think the lesson we need to learn from 9/11 is that we're to freely give up our right to self-expression, you should probably live in a country whose constitution more closely resembles yours.
The MBTA's policy is that
The MBTA's policy is that all non commercial photography is allowed as long as the photography is willing to provide ID if asked and flash isn't used in a situation which could blind a driver. It used to be that they asked people to apply for an orange photo permit which had to be carried around, until the policy was relaxed a year or two ago.
Hrmmm...
You know, I was re-reading the US consitution, and I didn't see anywhere that said "you can be snap happy douche and take photos of subway stations because you feel like it."
Maybe I misread it?
Then again, bloggers think they are journalists when they write about stories PUBLISHED IN NEWSPAPERS. Oh laws yes, everyone has the right to say anything.
It sounds like some whiny shutterbug (dude, don't you have a job, or do you sit around snapping photos and whining on the internet) got yelled at by the T driver. Maybe next time the T driver will text and smash into another train...oh wait no maybe he'll have sleep apnea...oh wait maybe he'll miss the platform at North station...no wait...
Perhaps mister photog, whilst waiting for his check from MassDET, was distracting the driver, even without the flash. Sounds like alot of internet liberal whining to me.
Just for that, next time I see someone taking a photo by the T, I'll push them onto the T tracks. That's freedom of expression for you.
LOL
hilarious! i'm gonna have this rant printed on a t-shirt!
Photography was not very
Photography was not very popular back when they wrote the Constitution. I also believe most of those guys never had a laptop or had ever seen a television program. The constitution obviously does not mention any modern technology because none of it existed back then.
It would be impossible to write a document that covered all of the actions we are free to as Americans. It is much easier to list those actions that are not acceptable and then have those rules examined by the court system. At the writing of this post the rule is actually that people can take photos of MBTA property that is viewable by the public which makes most of your argument moot to begin with.
Oh I should mention, as an aside, this photo does nothing for me at all.
OMG!
A surly, ill-mannered, power-tripping MBTA employee. When has
that ever happened before?
Route 502 Bus, #0470, 10/7/09, 7:45am, outbound to Watertown
The incident was over a folding bicycle. Yes, you read that right: a grand total of 10-12 riders were subject to an argument between a female bus driver who said that if bikes were not allowed on the express bus, even if it was a folding bike.
One passenger (not me) deigned to say, "but there's plenty of room on the bus." She shouted, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ROOM ON THE BUS," and with that assertation that she was not going to give way I finally left the bus. And according to T rules, you can bring a folding bike on any bus as long as it's compacted enough.
The other bus driver (don't remember the bus number) not only let on the folding bike guy, but I said to the driver, tongue in cheek, that the only things I possessed were myself and this bag, and I had no interest in bringing a bike on the bus. He was an old school T driver, so he just laughed and let us both on. And, as a final zinger, the folding bike guy took a picture of the rear of the offending bus before it took off.
To be fair, though, here is where the driver of #0470 is somewhat correct - if you were on the Route 501 bus from Brighton to Downtown, which is almost always crowded, even a folding bike would cause a little bit of a problem. Also, the buses used on the Express Routes don't have bike racks, which makes sense if you're hurtling down the Pike at 60mph and your bike gets smashed to bits when it hits a car or another bus.
If it's two or three people reverse commuting to Watertown or Brighton, I don't think it's a big deal at all, but this driver was wrong - she should review the bike policy instead of shouting down other passengers in a display of power. No, you drive a bus - the only power is from the foot to the pedal, not your mouth.
If this guy was on a bike
If this guy was on a bike when he took the picture, Universal Hub would explode.
photos on the T
Yeah,most employees have no idea of the T policies I had a driver driving a RTS bus which I have over 1,000 photos of to date,pull over and tell me I was not allowed to photograph any MBTA vehicle in motion.I replied "really"? and snapped his picture,then replied..."your not a vehicle"!
I know their policies well,and they will make you pretty miserable,but in the end,unless you have stepped foot on their property,they usually let you go.Sometimes,if you happen to be in a restricted area,the cops come,and issue you a warning and "blah,blah,blah"
They searched my car numerous times,and they just never understood what a busnut is.
Needless to say after the last incident(and publication on universalhub,most of my photos are from far away or when a bus is parked driverless.