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City Hall security guards threaten to arrest signature collectors
By adamg on Sun, 08/23/2015 - 8:21pm
Did you know you can't canvas for Bernie Sanders at #BOSpoli #CityHall?
Posted by Bostonians for Bernie on Sunday, August 23, 2015
You might think City Hall Plaza is a public space where the public has the right to enjoy the First Amendment, but you might think wrong, at least according to Boston Municipal Protective Services, which says it doesn't apply when a group, in this case Boston GreenFest, rents out the plaza for an event.
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Comments
Progress
Hey, at least the thugs in blue didn't protest being filmed.
Eh, Saul?
"Thugs in blue..." that's some broad brush you're using there on all cops, eh, Saul?
Really makes me want to...
...vote for Bernie Sanders.
What a dink.
These kids should have deleted this
Reminds me of this clown who decided to publish this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H3mqs2b9_U
Torture Film
Muni Cop expounding on the law, Bernie! People, and the waterboarding of a somewhat decent 1988 song. What is not to love?
The Massachusetts High Court ruled in October 2014 that signature gathering could take place on publicly accessed private property. In this case it was a Governor's Council candidate who appealed to the court and beat Roche Bros in Westwood over signature gathering there.
http://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/supreme-court/volumes/469/469m...
While I'm no lawyer, even if the public accessed property known as City Hall Plaza is leased out to a private event (Even though it looks like only the steps by Congress Street were being used) shouldn't this law apply here?
So if I claim to be
So if I claim to be collecting signatures, can I get into the next Boston Calling for free?
admission
Would he have been "trespassing" if he were just standing there and not collecting signatures?
If not, then he wasn't getting into any event for free.
Besides, the event in question was free.
Okay, can I get into Boston
Okay, can I get into Boston Calling if I claim to be collecting email addresses (not signatures) and am willing to pay face value of a ticket, even if I don;t have a ticket.
Asked another way, can a group that rents out City Hall Plaza keep a person out if they want to? In this instance, the cop said that the people running Greenfest noticed these guys and, I assume, wanted them gone.
I'm not arguing for or against any position, I'm just curious how this public land is used for private events. Forget Boston Calling, maybe I'd like to bring a clipboard to get into the next Big Top Circus.
Publicly-accessed
I'm not going to pretend to be a lawyer, but I'd imagine that the "publicly-accessed" is an important descriptor. So in your hypothetical:
You wouldn't be able to get in, because the admission charge is necessary in that situation to be considered "public accessible". So you might be able to collect signatures, but you'd definitely have to pay charge. I'm sure it's a far more complex situation, but I don't think there's loophole where we can get into events for free if we're collecting signatures.
tl;dr: we really need a lawyer to comment
He said "by paying the price of a ticket"
but I think the answer is still No, because if the event is sold out, you can't just get in by buying a non-existent ticket.
A more interesting question is whether the signature-gatherer can hover just outside the admission gate (but still on City Hall Plaza property).
Lawyering
Under Mass. law, for private commercial property, candidates can gather signatures in communal, publicly-accessible areas like inside shopping malls or outside supermarkets. In contrast, a candidate can not just walk into a bank and start collecting signatures from customers inside. What differentiates the shopping mall or supermarket from the bank is that the former act as de facto community meeting places in our society where people gather and candidates can meet many registered voters. The courts have determined it does not substantially hamper business operations to have people outside Roche Bros collecting signatures, whereas a candidate inside a bank would disrupt the nature of the banking activity. This issue is not governed by the First Amendment, but rather Article 9 of the Mass. Constitution governing ballot access - that's an important distinction to note because specific to collecting signatures to get a candidate on a ballot this article is more expansive than the First Amendment in some respects.
On this one, I'd need to know more specifics on the event itself, but their website says it's free and open to the public. So, right there, it's not Boston Calling. Boston Calling requires a paid ticket for admission and has clearly defined boundaries for the event. For Boston Calling, the organizers could make signature gatherers leave - that's not a publicly accessible event. In the example about seeking email addresses, it's even more true because you're not collecting signatures for ballot access which is a special category under Art. 9 as mentioned above. For Greenfest, it appears the opposite is true from what I can tell - it looks like a free open air festival with some tables, vendors, and bands. If that's the case, you're getting close to the shopping mall scenario where signature gathering for ballot access is allowed, nevermind this event itself though run by a private entity is taking place on public property. The Supreme Judicial Court views this issue expansively, and my hunch is they would lean towards allowing signature gathering at a private event held on public property that is free and open to the public.
Is it even time to collect signatures yet?
According to this document from the Mass. Secretary of Commonwealth, nomination papers for president aren't available until September 22.
Assuming that's accurate, the special exception for signature-collecting didn't apply this weekend.
Hope that the BS crew
Hope that the BS (Bernie Sanders) crew pushes back on this. It would be very good for all of us to see such a matter settled.
2:15 - It sounds like the Green Fest initially asked
Sounds like the organizers of the Green Fest asked the officers to ask the Sanders folks what was up. I wonder if the Sanders folks applied for an exhibitor table and were denied or just showed up.
Not sure it makes a difference, legally, but it would've been courteous to give the Green Fest folks a heads-up, which it doesn't sound like they did.
The birthplace and deathbed of liberty
"How dare one expect public assembly in a place dedicated to public assembly or that pesky 1st amendment in the Bill of Rights to be honored. Don't you know I have a shiny badge and snappy uniform backed by some un-elected officials most of you have never heard of?"
Excellent job by the Boston Municpal Sergeant
Excellent work by the Boston Municipal Sergeant for keeping his cool despite the repeated provocation. He should be immediately appointed to the Boston Police like several other Municipal officers were a few years back. Reminds me of this cruiser video they show at police academies around the world of a Maine State Trooper doing the same thing. There's an old saying that police need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of the biblical Job. Never more so than today.
Oh yah
Too bad they couldn't be troubled to get off their dead asses and stop the Scott Deadly crowd from slapping their stupid stickers all over downtown.
But, hey, that's okay because you probably voted for him.
I usually work at Pride--
I usually work at Pride-- most years, doing non-partisan voter registration.
However, I've also volunteered to get signatures at Pride, just like this guy, for a few candidates over the years. Every time I've done it, the campaign has arranged for a table, & presumably paid a tabling fee.
I don't know if that should make a difference, but I would guess that it does. Even anti-gay asshat Tim Cahill had a table & was getting signatures (!) (maybe "signature") at Pride.
Professional fundraisers
In recent years when I have attended Pride at City Hall Plaza, the annoying clipboard professional fundraiser bunch of skanky looking teenyboppers is out in full force. I doubt they request permission to be there, and they certainly don't have a table, but nobody hassles them. Now, if there is anyone that should get hassled it's those pests.
I am deeply ambivalent about sidewalk fundraising
I hate the model that's used-- so often, they hire idealistic young people, pay them crap wages with bonuses tied to how much they raise, then oversaturate a small geographic area with them so they become an annoyance. While I haven't noticed them being a problem at Pride, I do get fed up with them in Downtown Crossing.
I feel sorry for the folks working it, though. It's a sucky job.
here here!
Yep. I work downtown also and get accosted by them daily. It's very tiring.. and they wonder why I walk away when I see them.
Or even "Hear, hear!"
.
They're mercenaries, pure and simple
"so often, they hire idealistic young people"
Maybe some of them are, but the majority are mercenaries. They need a job, and that particular job (like telemarketing in the days of old) is always available, so they take it. They will fundraise for whatever is thrown in front of them, regardless if they believe in the cause or not.
Agreed
My strategy with charity panhandlers is to keep my earbuds in, look down at my smart phone and if they do get my attention, make eye contact and just smile as I walk by without replying. I do find them annoying and will not give to any charity that uses this tactic, but they're also human and probably believe in what they're doing. It is an annoyance, but too minor to take up much energy.
That was embarrassing. Kind
That was embarrassing. Kind of wish he was arrested for being such an ass, but I have a feeling he would have felt even more vindicated if they actually did.
I much rather have these guys soliciting signatures
Much rather them than the vest people hanging around Kendall.
Hate to say it
But one guy here is being a dick, and it's not the cop.
I don't know if the cop is ultimately right about the law. On the one hand, it seems like city hall plaza should be public space; on the other, it seems perfectly plausible that if city hall plaza can be rented out, then the people who rent it can determine access. I think a judge would have to decide that. (Helpful hint: first step in that legal process would be arrest).
But the cop spoke clearly, and politely, and the clipboard guy is just being ridiculous by pretending he doesn't understand and quibbling about every damn thing (e.g. "how do you know it's my backpack?").
I half expect the guy with the clipboard to throw himself onto the ground and start screaming "Attica!" The campaign should figure out who he is and try to keep him in the back office if not let him go if he doesn't know how to behave in public. He makes Bernie Sanders' campaign look bad.
+1 for the "Dog Day Afternoon" reference
Though I'm not sure anyone under 45 or so would get it.
The person antagonizing the officer is a dick.
He reminds me of those haters from BLM that interrupted Bernie Sanders.
What is the URL of this video?
All I see in the embedded video frame is "Video Unavailable. Sorry, this video could not be played". Which probably results from me having an outdated version of Flash, which Chrome disabled.
Here's the URL of the video
Here's the URL of the video itself. I can't get it to work when embedded in the page either.
https://www.facebook.com/BostoniansForBernie/videos/441304192739096/
You'd think wrong
Can I just go into the Big Apple Circus during a show and start polling for the Hitler Youth of Greater Boston? Phantom Gourmet's Beach Barbecue Party? The Jimmy Fund's Scooper Bowl?
Of course not. Just because the GreenFest didn't put up a wall around the outside or charge for entry doesn't change their usage rights of the plaza space. You also can't interrupt the St. Patrick's Day Parade by walking in the opposite direction during the parade to request e-mail addresses for the First Manned Mission to Mars or the Libertarian Party...and that's held on a public street!
It's public space...except when we, as the public, choose to section some of it off for a temporary event to be held. Don't like it? Change the laws/rules.
That cop is one of the good ones. Held his cool, repeated his demands, only escalated as necessary, didn't demand they stop filming, was quick with his name/number.
I'm still voting for Bernie, but these asshats should apologize to that cop.
As a Bostonian
I find this groups name offensive, these dinks are not Bostonian's and do not represent the people of this city.
Go home yuppie!
Boston Greenfest promoted a competing presidential candidate
Jill Stein from the Green Party was part of Friday's program