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MBTA completes Green Line real-time displays
By roadman on Thu, 01/14/2016 - 9:36am
Only, they're aren't exactly showing real time.
Noted that the westbound train displays at North Station and Haymarket have been activated.
However, instead of displaying (for example) "Heath St 5 MIN" and "Clvnd Cir 8 MIN", they are displaying (for example):
"E) 1 Stop Away" and "C) 2 Stops Away"
Additionally, the westbound sign at Boylston has also been changed to display the updated format.
Leave it to the T to take a good idea that was properly and reasonably implemented for eastbound trains and wreck it (no pun intended) for westbound trains.
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Comments
Wow, that's useless
If you're at North Station there is always a train 2 stops away. It's call the end of the line. It's when that train is leaving Lechmere and arriving at North Station that you care about.
Thanks MBTA for missing the mark yet again.
it may be coming
It may be in the works.. because other GL stations have times.. Originally the signs only said when a train was coming (no times).. so it may be coming.
Actually, only the original signs
at Kenmore gave the "next train arriving is" information when first activated and were updated to include times later. The eastbound signs in stations displayed times from the day the "real time" systme was switched on at those locations.
The T says it's working on times
But is providing "the next best thing" until it can get there:
North Station is the origin of westbound C trains
Lechmere is the origin of westbound E trains.
Yet the T claims they can't accurately predict arrival times for trains that leave those two points.
And it still doesn't explain the change at Boylston westbound, where they switched from providing times to "X stops away"
Something is rotten in Denmark. But that seems to be par for anything the T tries to do. Remember how the commuter rail smartphone app was going to be expanded to include the subway. And how the T quietly dropped that plan three months later.
Boylston has eastbound times,
Boylston has eastbound times, it didn't have anything for westbound until now. Not only is Park St. an origin point for one line (the B line), but it is also the one place where a Green Line train can pass another one traveling between the same two points in the same direction, because of the two-track layout. . As an example, a C train might get to Park St. first, but a B or D train might still leave before it, changing the time it will actually arrive at Boylston.
Once underway, trains should not be rerouted
unless there is a true emergency. If you have to constantly "hold" or "short turn" trains to match the schedule on a regular basis, then it's your schedule that needs to be fixed, not how your trains are running.
Running all eastbound trains to Lechmere and dispatching "next westbound train" from there to the next destination on the schedule, as opposed to the current practice of sending a train back to where it originated from, would solve this problem in a heartbeat.
I'd agree
except my many years of riding the Green Line indicates that a lot of the reason trains are behind is stupid human behavior, ex: running across the tracks in front of a train above-ground, stopping your car across the train right of way because you just had to be two car lengths ahead in that traffic jam (or you miscalculated, it happens!), grabbing the doors as they're about to close and forcing yourself onto the train, following one of those door grabbers and piling on behind them, refusing to move into the train so some poor schmoe gets pinned into the stairwell unable to move with the door slamming on his wrist, etc.
The MBTA can't control for those things and maintan an appropriate headway for rush hour.
The MBTA can't control for
While they can't totally control these things, they can mitigate the effects of them. As I've noted both above and many times in the past, all they need to do is abandon the present system of requiring trains to return to their origin points. Run all eastbound trains to Lechmere, then dispatch the westbound trips based on the next departures in the schedule, and not "Train from Riverside must return to Riverside." This would give you a self-correcting system where having eastbound trains from one particular line bunching up won't affect how the westbound trains run.
Yest, it will require expanding the Green Line fleet to make this work reliably. But it's an idea that should be given serious consideration.
There is no schedule on the
There is no schedule on the green line. The only thing they do is try to keep trains from getting bunched up too much.
Answer is simple
Because the old signs didn't take into account trains getting looped, held at Park St. Etc.
Actually, it is not uncommon for the eastbound
sign at Boylston to suddenly change to reflect a train being rerouted at Park Street. And the system is driven by information coming directly from the trains themselves. So your argument about holding trains is a weak one for not posting actual times on the westbound signs.
Wait, they're able to
Wait, they're able to accurately predict arrival times in some places?
Missing the mark? Hardly...
I understand what you're saying, but you're only focusing on the expected routine of inbound trains from Lechmere.
What about a disabled person who sees the sign for an inbound train, going from "2 stops..." to "1 stop away"? You don't think it would be helpful for those that can't sprint toward an approaching train to prepare themselves for boarding toward the platform?
And what about those at North Station looking to go outbound toward Lechmere? (Yes, they exist) You don't think there's usefulness of the signage, especially when E trains are sporadic at best and awaiting passengers are getting antsy?
Besides, time-based predictions are only useful when things are moving smoothly. Riders b**ch all the time about how next train times can increase from 10 minutes to 20 minutes (due to any number of mechanical problems). At least if I see a sign stuck at "1 stop away", I know how close a train is in relation to where I'm waiting, as opposed to not knowing WHEN the close train will actually start moving again.
This post comes off as a classic case of trying to load a pile of dung on the T (because it's so easy to do), when you should be flinging it at yourself for understanding how something good, though maybe not helpful to you, can be an asset to others.
Eastbound (outbound)** signs at North Station
currently indicate "Lechmere 20 MIN", not "2 Stops Away." And that is the point - the MBTA obviously has the capability to display expected arrival times (IIRC the system is based on information generated from the trains themselves),but they
're just too lazydid their ususal half-assed "let's get something out there" job instead of displaying arrival time on ALL signs within the system. Hence why they're such an easy target for dung flinging.** wish the T would standardize on one designation or the other.
Oh please
You've done research within the organization itself to attribute this sign inquiry to laziness? C'mon man, I need something better than your opinion on why the displayed information differs...give me facts.
As the green line uses a very different method of train tracking than the rest of the system, the T could still be ironing out quirks as to what the best type of information displayed should be, or might offer train times vs number of stops away depending on ridership stats per station. I don't know for sure, and neither do you. That hardly justifies crapping on them.
It's automata
It's like automata for him. Just don't go there, you wont win.
signed, someone who has been there and won't go there anymore. Not worth the energy anymore.
The fact that most of the signs in the system
display times tells me the MBTA has the infrastructure in place to do so with ALL the signs. Especially when you have stations where the eastbound signs display times but the westbound signs display 'X stops away"
But I agree with you on one point. Perhaps "half-assed job" is more appropriate than "too lazy."
Hardly
I'm thankful the T is installing these signs and I agree they are better then nothing.
However, I don't see why asking for specific times is an unreasonable request as it would help everyone in your example. If a train is 1 stop away yet it says 10+ minutes this lets riders know there is a problem. This is particularly true with North station where someone can choose to take the Orange or Green lines if they are going to some of the same places. The signs should also be outside the station so riders with the option to walk/hubway/etc don't waste their fare.
I defend the T often -- 90% of trains run fine -- but there is no reason not to question their decisions.
East entrance of TD Garden
has Orange Line "Next Train" signs posted as you leave the Commuter Rail concourse. Presumably they also post general service alerts as well, though I've yet to see any displayed.
If a sign says 10+ minutes
If a sign says 10+ minutes away (as stated in your example), how does this let people know there's a problem? That type of message could give riders the impression things are running smoothly, and that the next train is further away from your station than what it actually is. Okay, you know it's 10+ minutes away...does that mean you know without a doubt it's at least 4 stops away? No.
As far as having signs outside of the station, I'd suggest to potential riders to download one of a multitude of apps, which more often than not, displays the expected time a train arrives at any given station (prior to deciding to enter a station).
As apps typically have that as the prevailing piece of data displayed, I'd further encourage keeping green line station signs at "X number of stops away", so that can be further supported by mobile apps' accompaniment of "X minutes away" data. Now, you can see that a train is 2 stops away in the station, and your app says "5 minutes away" (i.e. "things seem to currently be running on time").
I'd suggest to potential
How about riders who don't have smartphones? How about riders (like myself) who have smartphones but choose not to flash them around in an environment where they are suseptible to theft?
Just because you have advanced technology and choose to use it doesn't mean that everyone else does.
10+ Minutes
It lets you know you need to wait 10+ minutes for your train unlike "1 stop" which tells someone little about how long they'll need to wait, particularly if they don't know the system well.
It Would Be More Useful To Simply Have A Video Feed ...
... from the next couple of stations up the line. Not only would you see what's happening with the trains, you'd also see how many people were trying to cram inside, and be able to make an informed decision whether or not you'd be better off walking.
Because the video screens they installed
at Park Street for operators to observe the train doors have proven to be so reliable - not!
Park Street Is So Busy They Use The Flashlighters ...
... but I've never see a non-working video screen at any other station. Indeed, they seem to be one of the more reliable systems the Ⓣ employs. They're relatively low-tech and inexpensive too.
A picture can tell much more of a story than words alone — especially words spoken over the Ⓣ's public address systems!
It's better than literally
It's better than literally nothing, but I can't believe it isn't timers.
saw that last night at North
saw that last night at North Station and yeah I thought well this is useless info.
To be fair, it's not like the
To be fair, it's not like the T knows how long any train will take to get to a station. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes, sometimes an hour, sometimes never.
Just peruse this site - http://www.universalhub.com/mbta
Yet, they've been displaying
reasonably accurate arrival times for appproaching eastbound trains at Green Line stations for several months now.
There's no legitimate reason they can't do the same for the westbound trains. And they were doing exactly that at Bolyston westbound (i.e. "Riverside 3 MIN") until yesterday, when they changed from giving specific information that elicits an "OK" from riders to vague information that elicits a "HUH?" from riders.
And how is giving just the route letter instead of the destination easier and better for riders, especially those who may be unfamilar with the system?
It easier to give predictions
It easier to give predictions for trains that are already enroute (based on the actual location and travel speed of the train) vs. predicting times for trains that haven't actually started the run yet. If the train hasn't actually left the yard at Lechmere yet or hasn't completed changing ends at the North Station turn-back, or hasn't gone around the Park St. loop, the estimate for its arrival at the next station will be considerably off if the train doesn't depart the origin point on time. I'm sure you won't be shocked to learn that from time to time, Green Line trains leave their origin points late.
So it seems that the "unique
So it seems that the "unique characteristics of the green line" (as quoted by @mbta) are that trollies don't start their trips on any particular schedule but just whenever the operator jumps in the cab and goes.
Not so much the operators
but the dispatchers, who seem to be making it up as they go when it comes to rerouting and holding trains.
How about this as a compromise
If a train hasn't yet looped at Lechmere or used the North Station turnback, display the "X stops away" message. Once the train is boarding passengers, then display the "Heath St X MIN" message instead.
But how are those difficulties any different
But how are those difficulties any different from the way that they predict trains at the termini of the Red/Orange/Blue lines? They predict when the outbound train is anticipated to arrive at the station (e.g. Forest Hills) and calculate the corresponding inbound departure appropriately. Wouldn't it be the same in this case where they have pre-assigned trains to the specific Green Line BCDE runs? I could understand it being much more difficult if trains were a dynamically assigned one-way trips (e.g. an inbound B turning to an outbound E), but that isn't the case.
My bet
At Park St, they can have trains come and go for the separate lines as they essentially please. A B Train may wait for a D & E to clear out first. B's have to wait for C's or a C may have to wait for a B to move out before it can even pull up to its designated curb within the westbound side of the station. (I may have these letter mixed up but the point remains)
At Kenmore, you can have the same thing happen. Based on where the switches are at and whatever is downtrack, they may slow or speed up one or another line over the others calling it "schedule adjustment" or whatever while you sit there and rot waiting for your turn to go.
On top of that, you have the dependence of cross-traffic not blocking you in on the surface stops, red lights that aren't factored into the timing, etc. They are probably correct that it's next to impossible to validly give timing as opposed to stops at this point because the infrastructure is junk. The streetcar portions are completely unreliable. The underground portion jams up randomly. If I recall correctly, dispatch doesn't even know what signals the train has passed or not underground...it's all manual by driver. So, I don't think there's an easy way to estimate the velocity of any given train to give a timing prediction worth a damn.
now will...
now will they put more of these signs in at Park street? they are only down in the far part of the platform, which is useless for anyone waiting for a c or b train.
on a related note, can the mbta teach their drivers to read? love that they have sections for each train, but when the C train ends up where the D train is supposed, it makes it hard to actually board at rush hour.
If a C train is berthed
where the D train is supposed to be, that means they intentionally short-turned the C train at Park Street and don't want to detain the following B train from boarding.
When they are having problems with the "wall rail" - where the C and E trains berth, and reroute all trains onto the "fence rail" - where the B and D trains berth, they will normally have the C train load at the B berth, which is directly opposite the normal C berth.
Now, would you like me to explain the purpose of the blue lines in hockey
In general, the placement of
In general, the placement of these signs is just useless. They need to be visible from outside the fare gate, which at many (most?) stations, they aren't. The whole point of them should be to help you make an informed decision about your time-- i.e., choose to walk instead, or run a quick errand, if there's a really long wait. If you can't see the sign until after you've swiped your card, the sole purpose that info can serve is to annoy you.
There's an app for that
ProximiT shows you the same info as the signal boards (although unless a new update comes out soon, it's only for surface stops on the Green Lines because that's all that had been exposed by the MBTA until now).
You can see how many stops until the next 3 trains are at your stop of interest.
I don't have a smartphone.
I don't have a smartphone.
The drivers don't control the
The drivers don't control the tracks...
I would actually much rather
I would actually much rather have "stops away" display than a frequently-inaccurate "minutes away" display. The current minute-based information (at least on the Red Line) does not feel accurate enough at this point to be useful.
Real-time tracking with the Greenline app
We just launched Greenline 2.0, featuring new real-time predictions for the Green Line! See it in action: http://www.greenlineapp.com
Greenline is a sleek app that quickly finds your nearest station, tells you how many minutes until the next train arrives, and shows where the train is currently located.
While you're waiting for your train, you can play with the interactive map and watch as Green Line trains move across Boston. Meeting a friend? Let your friends know where you are by sharing you're train so they can track you in the app.
Currently, Greenline is only available for iOS.
Disclaimer: I am the creator of the Greenline app :)
For all of you complaining
For all of you complaining about the T only providing "X Stops Away" instead of actual times (i.e. Roadman):
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2016/01/20/why-the-green-...
WIth respect, it's sad the media swallows
these BS "excuses" from the MBTA whole without doing some independent research. Giving times works for eastbound trains, there is NO legitimate reason it can't work for westbound trains as well.