City officials have started looking at ways to provide snow-shoveling services to elderly and disabled residents who can't shovel their sidewalks and who can't find or afford somebody to do the work for them.
At a hearing this morning, though, City Council President Michelle Wu said the city should look at going even further - and investigate the costs of just clearing all 1,600 miles of the city's sidewalks.
Councilor Tito Jackson (Roxbury), who sponsored the idea of an exemption for people over 60 and the disabled, said the city of Ottawa clears all of its sidewalks after storms.
Short of that, Jackson said the city could work to extend its current summer job program for teens to winter shoveling to help the elderly and disabled.
But Councilor Tim McCarthy (Hyde Park, Roslindale, Mattapan) said that large-scale volunteer programs "basically don't work" - especially with kids these days, because many of them would rather stay in bed or down in the basement playing Xbox when the snow comes down.
But councilors agreed Jackson's proposal needs an answer to the shoveling question.
Councilor Josh Zakim (Back Bay, Beacon Hill, Fenway, Mission Hill) said finding an answer is the benefits of not forcing some residents shovel would be outweighed by the risks of other residents not having safe sidewalks. Zakim also asked whether 60 is too young a cutoff age.
The proposed ordinance as written "would, in fact, endanger more people than it would protect," Wendy Landman, executive director of WalkBoston, agreed.
Emily Shea, Boston commissioner of elderly affairs, said her office did try organizing a volunteer program a couple of years ago with AmeriCorps, but the program foundered because many of the volunteers lived outside Boston and couldn't get in when the T shut down because of the weather.
Shea said Cambridge currently has an exemption program for senior residents who can prove a financial hardship and that workers in that city's recreation department, who have lighter workloads in the winter, shovel their walks. She said 71 of Cambridge's roughly 15,000 seniors have signed up.
Shea said Boston has roughly 100,000 residents over 60, and that up to 40% are living on $25,000 or less a year.
She said that when seniors call her office now seeking shoveling help, workers first try to see if they have any relatives or friends who can help them and that if they don't, they talk about how to find a plowing contractor. She acknowledged, however, not all seniors can afford a contractor. Jackson said he is concerned some contractors charge excessive rates.
Shea added that Newton also offers an exemption, but said few apply for it because that city doesn't ticket for unshoveled sidewalks anyway.
Shea did not mention the snow-angel program in Cranston, RI.
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Comments
Question
By bosguy22
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:19am
"Shea said Boston has roughly 100,000 residents over 60, and that up to 40% are living on $25,000 or less a year."
How many of those live in single or multi-family homes where they're responsible for shoveling vs. living in elderly housing?
Really?
By johnmcboston
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:38am
15% of the city is over 60?
Boston's elders
By John-W
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:20pm
2010 census says population was 617,594 with 10.1% being over 60. The population estimate for 2014 was 655,884. The percentage of residents over 60 has likely increased (empty-nesters settling into the city from the burbs, chunks of non-migrating population aging in place) but I'd be surprised if it bumped up to 15%.
Yep, 2014 American Community
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 4:34pm
Yep, 2014 American Community Survey puts it at 14.9% 60 and over
http://goo.gl/DX9VE4
2014 Census says about 10% >65yo
By Jeff F
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:22pm
Here's the US Census Quickfact page for Boston.
Elderly housing
By mg
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 1:52pm
Do you have any idea how long the waiting lists are for elderly housing? Not to mention that no one should be forced to move from someplace they're capable of living independently solely because they aren't physically able to shovel snow.
Huh?
By bosguy22
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:46pm
Where exactly did I say someone should be forced to move to elderly housing? We were talking about how many people this "shoveling exemption" would affect, and I asked what the percentage of those over 60 are living in single families or own multi-families (where they'd be responsible for shoveling) vs. living in apartments/condos/elderly housing.
Try reading a little closer next time.
Cutoff age too young
By Nancy
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:21am
I'm with you, Josh. I know it's hard to decide what age is too young but if you can't shovel your sidewalk at 60, you probably have another impediment that might qualify as a disability.
Now they're talking!
By Allstonian
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:28am
Given the iffy job done clearing roads in many snowstorms, I'm not entirely hopeful, but this would be great - not least because it should end the problem of unshoveled sidewalks abutting public property, vacant lots, etc. Just freaking clear EVERYTHING.
Plus if the city is doing it,
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:43am
Plus if the city is doing it, they aren't doing it by hand like homeowners - cities that do their own sidewalks do it with bobcats and big industrial blowers. It makes it more efficient and does a better job, so in terms of man-hours and costs I don't think it'd be as much as a lot of people are calculating.
[Almost] Impossible
By BostonDog
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:05pm
The sidewalk in front of my house (West Medford) has a tree, the cement is uneven, and there's a telephone pole. Elsewhere on the block the sidewalk curves around objects, people park partway onto it, there are fire hydrants, etc. etc.
A bobcat wouldn't work at all. A small snowblower might work but where are you going to blow the snow? Half the houses have large fences or walls. Plus, you'd need to lift the snowblower up and down curbs, etc. Even people with snowblowers still need a shovel for parts of their property which is still only <200' for most houses. And the people who have snowblowers take nearly as long to clean the sidewalk as I do with normal shovel.
It's easy to blow the street as it's generally level and without obstacles. The sidewalk is several orders of magnitude harder.
I'm sure there's a reason but
By Scauma
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:04pm
I'm sure there's a reason but I've always wondered why no one has created something that can heat the snow, turn it to steam and let it evaporate like nature intends, just fast tracked?
Ah, but they have!
By adamg
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:08pm
Costs to install and operate snow melting systems:
Here's the reason
By EM
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:10pm
https://what-if.xkcd.com/130/
xkcd
By BB from Dot
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:43pm
I love xkcd.
And my street in Rozzie has
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:07pm
And my street in Rozzie has nice wide fairly even sidewalks, which even when there's trees are still wide enough to run a small piece of equipment on by.
People shouldn't be parking on the sidewalks, your neighbors are assholes.
Welcome to Boston...
By chaosjake
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:48pm
side·walk
/ˈsīdˌwôk/
noun, colloquial
Some side street are so
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 5:42pm
Some side street are so narrow that parking partially on the sidewalk is the only way that other vehicles can get by. Perhaps those neighbors are actually trying to be considerate.
Some side street are so
By roadman
Wed, 02/10/2016 - 9:38am
Some side street are so narrow that parking partially on the sidewalk is the only way that other vehicles can get by. Perhaps those neighbors are actually
trying to be consideratedisregarding the no parking signs.do or do not. there is no try.
By Malcolm Tucker
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:38pm
A counterpoint: every morning, bright and early (well, dark and early, since I'm up well before sunrise), I walk to and from the gym. My route takes me along sidewalks that BU's Facilities & Grounds people are responsible for clearing. This morning, when I left, they were starting (around 5:45 or so). By the time I returned home, around 8:00 or so, the sidewalks - big wide ones on Comm Ave, weird little brick paths, smaller side streets with all kinds of obstructions and cracks and you name it - were all clear.
Even though it wasn't a massive amount of snow to clear from the overnight, it was still an impressive effort - and it's one that they do every time, for every snowstorm. Such things are possible. They may turn out to be prohibitively expensive for an entire city - but they are possible.
Yeah a large crew
By BostonDog
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:54pm
Look at what you just wrote: A large crew of professionals at a wealthy university are needed to keep it's sidewalk clear. BU has a huge incentive to get this right -- if the sidewalks aren't clear faculty and students can't get to class and if someone slips the lawsuit will be big.
I'm not saying it's completely impossible for the city of Boston to clear all the sidewalks. I'm saying it's prohibitory expensive for what it would take OR they would do a half-assed job and you wouldn't see some sidewalks cleared for days. Also, a single 20" wide path made with a snow blower might be better than nothing but it's hardly what most people would call "clear".
right
By Malcolm Tucker
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:06pm
But at this point, Wu is just asking how much it would cost, in terms of money and presumably labor. Even if the City of Boston weren't able to afford the same level of pristine sidewalks as BU, it might be able to do something that would be a real benefit for hundreds of thousands of people. I'm crossing my fingers.
Big lawsuit
By Allstonian
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 4:05pm
I wish. I slipped on glassy wet ice on the sidewalk adjacent to their softball field and dislocated my shoulder. I guess I should have sued, but nobody saw me fall, and how exactly would I have proven that BU was at fault?
Also:
IF the city were to enact this, I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't follow its own code, which requires a path at least 42 inches wide.
People parking on the
By Christie-Baker 2016
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:23pm
People parking on the sidewalks isn't a reason to not figure out how to best remove snow, those illegally parked vehicles should be towed and ticketed. You can park or block the sidewalk, egomaniacs who do so make walking around extremely difficult for children, the eldery and disabled, who cant as easily hop back and forth into the street when some self entitled hillbilly blocks the sidewalk because its easier than legally parking their vehicle.
boston?
By yum
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 8:44pm
Is West Medford supposed to be considered Boston these days?
LOL
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 6:26pm
The City can't clear the streets of snow how the hell are they going to clear the sidewalks of snow?
And I would shovel 1,600 miles and I would shovel 1,600 more...
By BostonDog
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:31am
I'm glad someone is talking about this. Seriously get a price on how much it would cost and what it would take. Leave it to the voters if they want to pay for the service via taxes.
I don't think municipalities do a good job on sidewalks
By Waquiot
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:34pm
And yes, I have visited Ottawa in the winter (twice, for the purpose of skating the Rideau Canal) and seen the job they do. Also Montreal, Toronto, the Twin Cities, and most recently Newton.
That said, I'd love to see a realistic estimate for 3,200 miles of snow removal (and if they doubled 800 miles at first, I will stand corrected.)
Well, we know residents and
By Christie-Baker 2016
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 2:38pm
Well, we know residents and businesses do a horrible job, so the bar is pretty low. Many never bother at all, so a municipality trying would be an improvement.
Dedham uses a skid-steer with
By chaosjake
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:32pm
Dedham uses a skid-steer with a snowblower to clear sidewalks on some major roads and around schools. DCR does the same for many sidewalks and paths that fall under their jurisdiction. Unless you really love walking through six inches of semi-frozen slush, we can agree that this method is pretty bad. And it's what Boston would most likely adopt.
13th Amendment
By slavery
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:32am
these shoveling laws are unconstitutional!
The 13th Amendment to the Constitution declared that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
The US constitution doesn't
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:55am
The US constitution doesn't apply in MA because the State Supreme Judicial Court said so.
I'm not kidding.
The MA SJC doesn't recognize anything federal they don't like unless heartily bench slapped for ignoring it.
It was just one amendment
By adamg
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:59am
The second, and they were pretty promptly overruled.
Nope,
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:57pm
Nope,
Many many issues than the 1976 ruling which also rewrote the state constitution by fiat. Talk to the state chapter of the ACLU for a laundry list of "are you freaking kidding me?!" rulings which ignore the Bill of Rights.
The most frequent abuse permitted by the SJC is allowing the rest of the MA judiciary to issue summons/child support obligations/etc to people in federal custody and lumping those people with punishment for failure to comply once they've been released from federal custody. (impossible request)
This is not involuntary servitude...
By Bookerman
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:58pm
You have the choice of not shoveling, but you will incur the liability for fines as well as any injuries that happen on the sidewalk if you do not.
Won't change the broader MA laws concerning negligence
By Tiny Tim
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:35am
MA law imposes duty on property owner to clear snow and recognizes liabiltiy for failure to do so adequately. An ordinance like this wouldn't do anything to change that legal fact and would only confuse people into thinking they are therefore exempt from liability. State law > local ordinance.
The state law regarding negligence
By roadman
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:44am
applies to walkways on private property, like shopping malls, office buildings, and apartment/condo complexes.
It does not apply to PUBLIC sidewalks abutting private property.
Can confirm
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:58am
Kids didn't want to go outside and shovel and preferred to stay in playing Xbox
When I was a kid
By Nancy
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:14pm
My parents didn't give us the option. They bundled us up, handed us shovels and told us to come back in when everything was cleared, walkways, decks, everything.
Then we could come in and play Pong or Pitfall.
Clarification
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 1:18pm
I just said they didn't want to, not that they didn't.
Point taken
By Nancy
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 1:37pm
n/t
That explains ...
By SwirlyGrrl
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 3:26pm
The kids wandering around my area in packs carrying shovels. They're playing xbox.
Shoveling my own walk is
By bike nerd
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:45am
Shoveling my own walk is something I cherish, like icing a beautiful cake - or actually de-icing a beautiful cake. I don't want the slapdash city work to mess with my knife edges and tactical placement. The neighbors and I compete for craft and walkability and in the process hit the 70 year old's walk on one side and another 70 year old on the other
My mother is 70. She still
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 11:55am
My mother is 70. She still shovels. I'd better tell her she's elderly and she shouldn't be doing that. Also, I suppose she should stop climbing mountains, cross-country skiing and kayaking because she 'elderly.'
And there's nothing that would force her to stop
By adamg
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:01pm
The proposed ordinance requires an application be filed with City Hall.
Good for your mom.
By whyaduck
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:13pm
But her ability to mountain climb et. al. has no bearing on this issue. Many a 70 year old, due to existing medical conditions, for example, can't shovel nor should be shoveling snow.
Maintaining the walk is part of the cost
By Gary C
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 1:34pm
"Oh I'm 60 and I can't shovel my walk."
"OK, the city will plow it for you for free."
"Oh I'm 60 and I can't climb the stairs in my house any more."
"OK, the city will build you a downstairs bedroom and bathroom."
Of course. And, there are
By anon
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 6:19pm
Of course. And, there are people in their 50's who shouldn't be doing any strenuous activity due to medical conditions. What's your point?
A thought?
By Scauma
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:02pm
Why not have those guys/girls who are usually court ordered to do street cleaning in the summer (for various reasons) do snow removal? People commit crimes in the winter time too.
Or just be a neighbor
By tmrozzie
Tue, 02/09/2016 - 12:11pm
If you live next to someone who's elderly or otherwise unable to shovel their walk, just do it while you're doing your own. You're already out there and it's really not that much work (except maybe for last year's freakshow when everything was work).
And I don't say this pretending to be some pure, altruistic neighbor. Doesn't it make your life easier too if the entire walk is shoveled? When my son and I take morning walks with the dog I can't believe it when a perfectly snow-blown sidewalk abruptly ends at an untouched walk in front of the next house. How hard would it have been to keep going another 30 feet?
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