Hey, there! Log in / Register
One of the reasons Boston Latin looks nothing like the district or city it sits in
By adamg on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 11:43am
The Globe points out, again, that the city's premier exam school is mostly white and Asian in a city where kids are mostly black and Hispanic. But this time, the Globe looks at some of the reasons, including that a program started to help black and Latino students prepare for the entrance exam has increasingly become a resource for well off white kids
"If you are going to get disadvantaged kids into the exam school," said [a woman who runs an ISEE test-prep center in West Roxbury], "you need to stop subsidizing free ISEE test prep for people who are going away to Europe in the summer and live in condos [worth] over half a million dollars."
Neighborhoods:
Topics:
Free tagging:
Ad:
Support Universal Hub
Help keep Universal Hub going. If you like what we're up to and want to help out, please consider a (completely non-deductible) contribution.
Comments
Principal reason
It should hardly be surprising that someone whose business is selling ISEE test prep thinks that giving free ISEE test prep to people who could be paying her instead is a terrible idea. She might even be right. But that's not the main reason for the demographic state of BLS.
The principal reason that there are more white kids at BLS than in the rest of BPS is because so many white kids in Boston go parochial or private elementary school but then test in to BLS.
The proportions of students who are white at BLS, and students who are black at BLS, are both approximately the same as the overall proportion of white and black Bostonians (54%-52% and 24%-22%). The greater demographic mismatch is in the rest of the system, including a racial skew in the large number of families with young children who flee Boston.
It's true that children in Boston present a different demographic than the city overall: about 65% of Boston kids are Black or Hispanic, versus about 42% of the population overall, and that increases to about 75% in BPS. But those differences are minor compared to the demographic skew among whites here. From 54% of the city as a whole, whites decline to 24% of children and 13% of BPS students. Do you suppose Chang will address that? (Hint: creating another legal boondoggle to block white kids from BLS won't help).
I'm not really worried about the white kids
They have options. Yes, the city should be meeting the demand for schools in areas such as West Roxbury and the North End (where, at least, the Eliot has a whole new building), but as you say, the article shows many white kids have opportunities minority kids simply do not (yes, even with Metco).
The thing that really pissed me off in reading the article was how even the program originally aimed at helping minority kids in BPS prepare for the ISEE has been coopted by white kids whose parents could well afford the private test-prep centers (like the one run by the woman quoted in the article). If the article's accurate, a good start would be handing that prep program to somebody a bit more willing to actually promote it than the guy now in charge (which would be a low bar, given that the article portrays him as doing no outreach whatsoever).
Your right
They probably could afford the prep class, however they're probably already paying for the free one via taxation.
Under that logic the rich
Under that logic the rich should be able to collect welfare because, hey, they pay their taxes. I feel like you should know that already.
Rich people do collect welfare
Everyone is eligible to collect social security, and up to a certain point, the more taxes you paid on it, the more you get out of it, under the logic that it's not welfare or wealth redistribution, but a mandatory retirement savings program administered by the government.
This logic of course breaks down because there are no real barriers between different pots of money in the federal budget, the way there are between different private savings accounts or different state governments; only bookkeeping tricks to make them look separate, but the end result is that if you're high-income all of your life, your social security taxes are higher while you work and your social security payments after you retire will be higher than those of someone working minimum wage jobs their whole life.
Things tend to get complicated when you apply blanket uniform policies to a nonuniform population. That's a general fact of life that holds equally well in physics and in law.
You know what I meant when I
You know what I meant when I said welfare (ahem, Transitional Assistance), don't disingenuously try to pretend I was referring to social security.
The rich should be able to collect welfare, though.
The rich should be able to collect welfare, though. (Well not Transitional Assitance per se because that's by definition need-based, but welfare programs.) Systems which are universal instead of means-targeted are less controversial, they have less overhead, they guarantee that people won't fall into gaps in eligibility, and the rich end up paying more in taxes than they get back anyway.
This program is a little different though, since it's not about guaranteeing a safety net, but about leveling the playing field. But still, if they're going to giving their kids test prep either way, whether well-off parents pay that money themselves is a relatively minor factor.
What's the solution then? No
What's the solution then? No white or
Asian kids allowed?
Nothing like an absolutist answer ...
No, the answer is to help black and Latino kids get the same pre-test advantages as white kids - starting with just letting them know BLS is an option.
What opportunities are these????????
"the article shows many white kids have opportunities minority kids simply do not (yes, even with Metco)."
I grew up in Boston, got denied from attending Boston Latin because I am white even though I passed the entrance exam (WITH NO PREP) and was forced to attend a mostly black high school 10 miles away from where I live. Who are these white people of opportunity? Who are these privileged? It wasn't me and there are many more out there who are not. I worked my way to pay for a college degree, it took longer, but I did it.
People need to stop looking to blame others and blame themselves.
ER MAH GAWD! That must of
ER MAH GAWD! That must of been horrible for you to have to go to a mostly black school! Did you clutch your pearls daily?
Love,
A white chick that got into BLS but left b/c it wasn't the place for me and went to English High...in the 80's.
The whole thing is a scam
What is the point of doing backflips to get black kids into a school that probably doesn't serve them any better? White parents are deluded by Latin. I certainly was.
And don't give me stats about college etc. That's all cart/horse confusion. The whole thing should be torn up and started over.
You're right: Latin is not for everybody
And that is no knock on people who do better elsewhere; there are numerous ways to learn, and BLS represents just one way.
But for the right kids, Latin can represent an amazing opportunity - which was one of the points the Globe article also made, along with the fact that many minority parents don't seem to even think the school is available to their kids. Rather than destroying that, Boston should be working towards non-exam high schools that can offer challenging college-prep curricula, even if taught differently, like a certain city to our south does.
Note: Yes, our daughter goes to BLS. No, she didn't take a test-prep class to get in.
Latin doesn't change kids
Most kids who I have seen come out of Latin went to exactly the college you would have predicted going in. Very few made a step up.
And many are going to non-competitive colleges.
It's simply not a transformative school. That's a myth.
The thing exam schools have is better culture and behavior.
people with resources get test prep and benefits of high scores
The ISEE is supposed to screen for kids who can handle the workload at Latin and rank for admission. The progress a student makes while at Latin tends to define the universe of colleges and university interested in admitting the student. It looks like Latin students are averaging about 624 in Reading SAT and 628 in Math SAT. Parents know their kids will be tested academically at the BLS. It's a good fit for some kids, not so good for others.
Myth?
Funny but most kids and adults that i know say just the opposite. Including myself as a proud alumnus. Charter Schools have put a dent in those who would have attended BLS. This problem of minority attendance has been ongoing for 40 years and If the BPS was serious they would find a way to do more outreach it was program that worked. The BPS should work to keep the high standard and fix the problem without hurting the school. It has been a beacon for 300+ years
And now a note from somebody with memory loss
As the kidlet reminds me, she did take an ISEE test-prep class - the BPS one run by the guy cited in the article. Which we found out about from her school (which, at least at the time, had become one of those BLS feeder schools, to the point most parents kept their kids there rather than sending them to an AWC school).
So maybe....
Your intro to this story excoriating well-off white people (like yourself) could be toned down a bit. Your example proves suggesting white people like you are purposefully exploiting the system isn't always as nefarious as critics would suggest. Like most issues involving racial differences, this one is complicated and doesn't lend itself to easy answers, or blame.
Nobody's saying it's nefarious
But the end result is the same.
beneficiary of a policy you denigrate
"The thing that really pissed me off in reading the article was how even the program originally aimed at helping minority kids in BPS prepare for the ISEE has been coopted by white kids like my daughter."
FTFY
Parents should do what's right for their kids
I feel no guilt whatsover. At the same time, I can recognize the problems in the system and be disappointed that other kids didn't have the same opportunity, through no fault of their own.
Yes
Your original comment was incorrect Adam. The ISEE Prep was designed to help Boston Public School students with the test to level the playing field with the Private and Parochial school students who were testing in. It worked for that purpose. It was volunteers who worked to recruit minorities to that program.
As a Boston resident with 3 kids in BPS (including 1 in BLS) I can only offer my own experience (although I believe it is similar to many other families I know). I do not have the wealth to afford private school. If high quality options were not available in BPS such as advanced work in grades 4-6 and the exam schools, I would have moved my family out of Boston before my oldest started school. Instead I have stayed in the community. You can call it reverse white flight I suppose, but having all the white families leave Boston when their kids are young actually works to weaken diversity as the minority population becomes the majority. Is that really the answer?
I'm with Charles Murray on this one. It is more an issue that most of the parents of kids at BLS are 2 parent households where both parents are college graduates. Their background goes much of the way in providing the support to their kids to help them achieve at a higher level than their peers. Yes, there are some who do not have this family support, but the majority do. The kids in BPS who come from immigramt families who moved into Boston when the kids were already school aged are the least likely to attend an exam school, and these are largely minority (although the ones I do know who are in BLS are Asian, who according to the Glob do not count as minorities).
The "problem" addressed in this article has a lot to do with many societal factors other than race. It is intellectually lazy to ascrible it only to race.
Well said!
Thanks for an articulate, thoughtful comment, which are increasingly rare on Uhub these days. Complex problems have complex causes. If we all make simplistic, pithy comments and assign blame, we shouldn't be surprised these problems aren't resolved.
Liberal logic
At its finest. I feel no guilt whatsoever, but everyone else is an evil racist monster stealing education opportunities from poor minorities.
Conservative inability to read at its finest
Where am I calling people monsters? Recognizing that some people are getting screwed by a particular system is not the same as calling anybody monsters. Part of the fix is really incredibly simple: Make ALL elementary/middle schools inform their students' parents that a) their kids can apply for exam schools and b) that BPS provides free test prep classes.
The only way we knew about the test prep was because our daughter's school told us.
There ARE more serious issues involving structural racism in BPS, but there's no reason to bring them up in response to your message, since you're clearly not in a position to consider them, so no point for me to waste my time typing them out.
Non-exam High Schools
"Boston should be working towards non-exam high schools that can offer challenging college-prep curricula..." Yes!
Why would any high school not have this?
Does this mean that by the luck of the draw, some kids get stuck in high schools that don't provide decent college prep classes to those that want it?
The biggest predictor of a
The biggest predictor of a child's success is their parents' education level and financial class. Period, end of story. The success stories from BLS, etc, have to do more with the hoops that have to be jumped through and the level of parental involvement required, which weeds out parents who are poorly educated, working two jobs with no time, don't speak English, didn't graduate themselves, etc. Rightfully or wrongly, BLS is selecting students according to their biggest indicator of future success and then presenting themselves as a fix-all program.
Can We Play Mythbusters?
Can we please stop with the notion that somehow because you went to a parochial school that somehow you have a better chance at success, especially at BLS?
I went to a neighborhood catholic school that has had its share of future burn outs, rampant drug users, alcoholics, kids from broken families, poverty, future murderers, and people killed by police gunfire. Nearly everyone was white by the way.
My school should have been called the Academy Of Future Casheirs and Ditch Diggers.
I was woefully underprepared for the work at Latin, especially in math and reading.
Hard work. That's it. That is what gets kids, black, mauve, white, magenta through BLS. Welcome to life. Suck it up and work.
Parochial school myth
"Can we please stop with the notion that somehow because you went to a parochial school that somehow you have a better chance at success"
I am compelled to second this opinion. As someone who went to both a public high school in Boston as well as an almost entirely white private parochial high school (also in Boston) back in the 70s, I can attest that I actually encountered a larger, more enthusiastic percentage of bullies, ne'er do wells, future criminals and general losers in the parochial school than in the public. Not that the public school didn't have it's share.
If diversity is the goal, BPS
If diversity is the goal, BPS could go with the HB 588 approach and allocate exam school slots by origin school.
If the BPS really wants to
If the BPS really wants to stand by their schools and education, then maybe the top 10% of each 6th grade class should be offered first seats at BLS. That way the student body would/could be refective of the general school population . That would also factor in the advanced work vs regular classes problem of racial disparities.
I don't get it
If BLS is going to somehow be adjusted for demographics, it should be to match the city demographics, not the BPS.
It would be a step towards
solving the admissions issue but it wouldn't help the other issue that wasn't really discussed in this particular article of black and Latino kids having a much higher drop-out rate (leaving BLS not dropping out of school) and struggling academically. If you are the top student at Great School A, you're going to outpace top student at Just-Okay School B. And I honestly don't know what to do to solve this kind of inequity. Obviously it has to start very, very early, before third grade, to help all kids be more prepared but it's not going to be perfect.
Needs to start earlier than
Needs to start earlier than that - before the third year of life, forget third grade. There's very little public schools can do to address the social inequities that cause some kids to enter kindergarden reading at a first grade level and some not knowing their ABCs.
METCO could also be a factor
Thousands of black families in Boston sign their kids up a birth to get quality education in suburban schools. Since METCO is not open to white or asian families in Boston their choice is limited to exam schools or expensive private schools.
All it takes is one white
All it takes is one white family to sign up, get rejected, and sue, and then METCO will be over.
That's kind of funny
You'd think, after all the decades that Metco's been around, that if that were going to happen, it would have happened already, no?
I think
Anyone contemplating suing knows the only outcome would be the demise of the whole program.
It is a fact that METCO would not survive a challenge, the people who run it have even said so.
Erm, nope.
There are both white and Asian kids in METCO. Not many, but not none.
http://www.doe.mass.edu/metco/faq.html?section=all
Stop equating white with well off
There are plenty of poor white families, my own included, who need opportunities as well. Latin school was a game changer and refuge for me. I have siblings who didn't get in - some definitely due to race according to rejection letters in the 80s (worded something like "your score according to race" and one could figure out the math)- and their lives have been a lot more difficult.
Latin school is about merit based opportunity and attempts to reengineer that should never succeed. The real issue is that the rest of the schools are a crapshoot. That is the real issue BPS should address.
How do Asians know BLS is an option but black and Latinos don't?
It's a little far-fetched to claim that black and Latino students and parents don't know that BLS is an option but somehow Asians do. What is the current BPS system for sending messages to parents? Perhaps a districtwide email, text, robo-call or note home a few times a year to parents of the right age group would handle the notification problem. Notify them of the exam school option and the free prep course. I doubt it will make much difference in BLS enrollment numbers but at least the notification problem will be solved.
Furthermore, I think it's
Furthermore, I think it's weird that there are so many people making the assumption that black and Latino parents are less capable / responsible / interested in seeing their kids succeed than Asian parents.
Oh please
Nowadays $500,000 gets you a run-down shoebox that makes Bromley-Heath look like the Ritz, and a trip to Europe is cheaper than the omnipresent Gucci bags and off-contract iPhones. Is that clown saying lower middle class white folks who can barely make ends meet should be banned from free exam prep classes just because they're white?
Oh, please, yourself
If you read the article (I recommend it), that "clown" is a woman who runs ISEE prep classes in West Roxbury, so she knows full well what sort of people she's talking about. And since she's in West Roxbury, she's probably more familiar with condo prices there than downtown. And no, she's not saying what you're imagining she's saying.
I don't actually
What kind of people is she talking about? Care to enlighten me?
Seems pretty self explanatory to me
Especially given the context of the article, but she means well off white people.
Adam, do you feel guilty for
Adam, do you feel guilty for sending one your non-minority kids to Latin? For what it's worth, I don't think you should; however, you are contributing to the lack of racial diversity at Boston Latin.
New to the thread? Welcome!
No, I don't feel guilty. Does it bother me knowing that other kids possibly lost out on the same opportunity for stupid and inane reasons? Yes.
Eh?
You don't feel guilty, yet you do feel guilty? As in, you don't feel guilty about your white kid, but you do feel guilty about all other white kids? That's some impressive liberal logic right there bud!
I almost envy people like you
It must be so much easier to go through life without any sense of empathy whatsoever.
No parent should feel guilty about doing what's best for their kid. At the same time, those of us who do that can still feel there is something wrong with a system where not everybody has the same opportunity as our kids.
I thought well-off white
I thought well-off white parents sent their offspring to schools advertised in Boston Magazine.
Even well-off white parents
don't mind saving a few hundred thousand dollars by sending their kid to BLS.
If you're really thinking hard about BB&N
BLS is not going to cut it for you. It's a terrific school and yes they have an endowment but let's not pretend like it has anything like the resources of a private school or even a Newton North. It's a pretty scrappy, barebones place in terms of...well, everything--class size, amenities, sports and arts facilities, guidance, etc.
That's one woman's opinion
But there are people who pull their kids out of BB&N, and Shady Hill, and Park, and all of the most glossy magazine-worthy private schools in the area because they think the education their kids will get at BLS is better.
There are a few
but they're by no means a huge number. The West Roxbury folks who apparently make up a fifth of the school aren't generally in the demographic who are considering spending $50k a year for high school. And again, if money were no object, your kid was accepted, and you were comparing the resources offered by Winsor or Roxbury Latin with BLS, it'd be a pretty tough comparison.
I'm sure there are better examples
Roxbury Latin neither has particularly impressive facilities (nothing like Nobles, Milton, or Dexter), nor is particularly expensive (likewise). There is plenty that RL lacks and BLS has, which might make a kid prefer BLS, even if the tuition isn't a stretch for mom and dad.
That said, it's apparent we know different people. And it's also true that folks I know don't all think the same about BLS.
Some folks I know think BLS is as good or better than most area private high schools. Others think it only looks good in context - it is just a normal high school surrounded by a system that sucks bad.
What do you think?
My bad example.
I said RL not really thinking--I have two uncles who went there on full scholarships back in the day and it was pretty transformative though also brutal in some of the same ways BLS used to be. But you're right--it seems like a much more down to earth place than a lot of the other private schools.
I'm still not sure though what tremendous resources BLS has that would make it more appealing for parents choosing between it and most privates. The sports program always seemed very hit or miss in terms of facilities and resources (though football seemed to soak up most of the money). The music programs are pretty great but seem to be driven mostly by the hard work and personalities of the people who run them. And the academics...just given the school's status, they seem crazily uneven. Some total rock star teachers, also a lot of lunatics.
So yes--I guess I have very mixed feelings. It was a great place for my kid--it was truly transformative. But we also came away with uneasy feelings that it could and should be better than it is.
Here's what some folks think of BLS, Sally
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/images/uploads/pdf/bostonprivate.pdf
ISEE is for everyone.
And if some do not utilize it there isn't much you can do.
"when the alumni association reduced its contributions, the Boston public schools increased their own, and the offer was extended to the children of all taxpayers."
Seems fair enough to me. Unless you want to exclude a child because of his or her race it has to be open to ALL..
Instead of pulling down BLS
Instead of pulling down BLS in order to achieve some desired ethnic or racial diversity, how about pulling up all the elementary and middle schools in Boston which should give everyone a fair (or better) chance at getting in to BLS?
Of course its just easier to make BLS easier to get into so that's probably the approach the City will take.
A modest suggestion for Boston Latin
Here's an idea...
How about BLS direct that part/most of the annual revenue it sees from it's endowment ($5.4m last year: http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/24/politics/charles-koch-hillary-clinton-2016/) be used to fund free test prep for all comers, with an emphasis on underserved Boston neighborhoods. Regardless of racial composition. Effectively, use the the endowment to make the test prep free, to really level the playing field.
They have the dough. There isn't another school in Boston that has that kind of dough. (I googled "Madison Park High School endowment" and the internet laughed at me....) Solves the problem on the ground, and makes them look a lot less like priggish, selfish weenies.
How Much You Willing To Pony Up?
I gave $852 (!?!) last year and I have indicated that it should go towards art and theatre programs at the school. Even though I did not participate in any theatre nor any arts program at the school.
That's where I want my money to go, not to supplement a Bolling Building Financial Black Hole.
Latin still is a public school and basic learning skills should still be the taxpayers responsibility, with BLS and the other schools.
If you want to pay for test prep, jump in long dead former Dot Rat. My money isn't going to be siphoned off for "team building" exercises or new chairs for political hires in Dudley Square.
Get usef
To the Internet laughing at you. No way in hell is the blsa going to turn over its endowment to the bps.
There is too much emphasis on test prep. If a kid is actually smart, he doesn't need test prep just to get into BLS. If massive test prep is the only thing that gets a kid into school, he's not going to benefit from the school as much as a kid who got in without it.
That said, it is unfair if middle class white kids (like our host's daughter) get to stack the deck with intensive test prep if less fortunate kids don't. That is certainly an issue the bps should address.
As so many have said, the bps should stop whining about how few minority* students go to BLS and work on preparing more to do so. IMHO, less time on tests is needed, but YMMV. How about the BPS produce minority* scholars who don't even need test prep? Work on that, Mr. Chang, not another scheme to get around lack of readiness.
The BLS endowment is and should be used to support the activities of current students, not to address social justice issues outside the school. Trying to make the school more welcoming for the black and Hispanic students who are there fits the purpose. Paying into another bps scheme doesn't.
I think Bill Maher has a point
with this plain nose on face monologue.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-maher-is-tired-of-white-people-...
I went to bps my whole life
I went to bps my whole life and my family and I never knew their were test prep classes aimed at the majority minority for exam schools. I know giving the opportunity to take these classes I would've went to an exam school.
I agree it's unfortunate
You missed your chance to participle.