It wasn’t normalized; people just uncritically repeat that or some version of “he was a man of his time.”
There was plenty contemporaneous criticism of Jefferson in regards to his relationship with Hemings. What’s normalized is the excuses society has always and still makes for powerful men who are sexual abusers.
Law enforcement did not induce an innocent person to commit a crime. They did not implant the idea in his head. They did not originate the criminal plan. He went looking for sex with children on a foreign website. They set up a sting to catch any perpetrator who happened to hit their listing. He showed up at a hotel with the negotiated cash price for the illegal act. It is similar to detectives parking a nice car in an area known to be worked by habitual or professional car thieves. When they show up and jump in the seat and pop the ignition, they commit the crime based on their own mindset, not because the police forced the opportunity upon them.
Entrapment would be the result of deception - as in switching an adult woman with a young girl and then saying "oh but you were in the same room even though you turned right around and left, therefore ..."
Nobody made these guys look for ads, respond to ads, and then attempt to pay to receive the advertised services. They were snared because they thought they had found what they were looking for. In the case of the anesthesiologist, he was told the ages and then still went ahead with expecting to "complete the transaction".
Contrast this situation - willful response to advertising rape opportunities - with the ugly case a few years back where a father was actively trying to find guys to have sex with his 10 year old daughter. One guy that the father approached went to the cops in disgust and horror. Non pedos don't go looking for ads for sex with underage children - they report it.
Most "Catch a Predator" stings today do rely on bait-and-switch and deliberately push the boundaries on entrapment. In their sex ads police obviously can't post pictures of an actual 12 year old girl so they instead post pictures of a 25-year old cop or they present the option of sex with the mom. This gets johns to reply to the ad and start talking. Then police follow a script that maintains uncertainty over the jane's age. Then the moment the john shows up, he's arrested, whether he's a white knight or just an uncommitted slob trying to figure out if this is roleplay. Police do this because there really aren't so many highly motivated child predators out there to justify them running a sting.
The summary above plays into it. Adam wrote that the ad was "posted on an overseas Web site that caters to child-sex seekers" which makes you imagine a sketchy thing like www.bored-lolitas-near-you.ru. But this is because of misdirection by the very careful wording the agent put in their affidavit:
Beginning on or about November 1, 2022, law enforcement agents posted an advertisement (the “Advertisement”) on a website commonly used to advertise commercial sex acts.
1 The Advertisement indicated that the poster was in the area of Boston and Lowell, Massachusetts. The Advertisement contained images of what appeared to be two young females and the following language:
1 Based on my training and experience, I know that the Internet is global network of computers, which is a means and facility of interstate commerce. I
also know that the website on which the Advertisement was posted is maintained by an entity that is located outside of the United States, and the advertisements posted on that website are viewable outside of Massachusetts.
which accurately describes reddit and tiktok, large social media sites which are foreign owned, and among their millions of post, sometimes advertise paid sex. The agent also paraphrases the john in some places while using direct quotes in others. You can bet that the agent will paraphrase anything exculpatory while quoting anything incriminating.
In this case, with the john spurting out with the Santa Claus line without prompting, it's a a good bet he was on a path to do harm. But most cases originating from police stings should be looked at skeptically.
If the government uses deceit to 'trap' someone, there could be possibly an entrapment defense.
See 'Delorean". He was the only non government agent in the whole crowd. He was coerced into dealing some coke to save his car company.
He was induced. So far so good. But: he was NOT 'predisposed' to commit the crime. If not for the overwhelming pressure brought about by the government, he would never have gotten himself mixed up in it.
He was not 'predisposed' to commit the crime.
If you go looking for something, you are 'predisposed' to finding it. It's a bit more complicated than that, but basically it is an entrapment killer.
I am in full support of prison reform and think society needs to do more to help people who are busted on things like drugs, petty theft, crimes of poverty, etc. Even certain violent crimes - gang related violence, assault involving addition, etc, are worth looking at for whether prison can be rehabilitation...
But sexual crimes against children? There is no fixing that. There is something deeply broken in these men and the justice system and all of the psychiatric field has yet to find anything, ANYTHING that can fix them. Chemical castration was popular for a while, until it was shown it just results in these offenders committing crimes using *other* objects, which cause severe injuries to the victims. They reoffend at rates exceeding any other crime and feel NO GUILT about it - this dude texted the pretend pimp TEN TIMES in under four hours - this isn't a tortured soul struggling with something, this is man gleefully excited to rape a child.
Once they've been convicted once that should be it. Life in Prison. No Parole. No reintegration into society.
There should be a special place here for them - prison. This guy was convicted in 2019 but out and free in 2022, on the prowl for more rape? Or did he not even go to prison at all??
Most likely it would derange the abuser to the point where they would be more likely to abuse a child again due to the stress.
History has shown torture is not an effective deterrent for anything.
Hell is nonexistent and souls are mythical creatures.
We remember when torture was something that only bad people did. Then we elected some of them, and Jack Bauer said it was OK. Now we have random dickheads on the internet prescribing it for sick people. Sad.
Since most people here are talking in hyperbole and purely emotional arguments, I'll weigh in as a certified court expert on topics including offender evaluation and treatment.
Studies are inconsistent in terms of figures, because there aren't good operational definitions for the wide range of things that get called "offender treatment" nor is there a clear operational definition as to what constitutes reoffending (self-report? criminal involvement? getting fired for boundary stuff but not breaking any laws?)
However, it's entirely a myth that every person who offends is a complete irredeemable psychopath and needs to be burned at the stake.
This also doesn't mean that anyone approves of CSA or thinks we should just ask them nicely to not do that again.
It is appropriate that the alleged perpetrator of such an offense be held and evaluated.
It is also appropriate to understand that a good number of people successfully complete robust offender treatment and go on to not further offend (either in a criminal or clinical sense).
If you have sexually assaulted a child, you most certainly are irredeemable. In my opinion, you've given up your right to live in a civilized society, and you should be banished to live your miserable life in the worst circumstances possible.
These are not good people regardless of how much "treatment" they've had. Do you believe in gay conversion therapy as well?
It is also appropriate to understand that a good number of people successfully complete robust offender treatment and go on to not further offend (either in a criminal or clinical sense).
Studies have shown 30-40% of child molesters reoffend within 20 years. Are you comfortable with that number? I'd also argue that number is low considering the vast majority of sex offenses go unreported (as a "certified court expert" should know).
You'll never, ever convince me that any child sex offender is a good person. I actually find it horrifying that you're defending these scumbags on an article about a person arrested for trying to diddle two children. It's gross.
I'm not comparing homosexuality with child molestation, you stupid asshole.
I'm talking about attempting to change a persons sexual orientation and what they're sexually attracted too. Therapy and treatment does not change a person attracted to the same sex, nor does it work for people attracted to children.
If not wanting my kids to live in a world with pedophiles is uncivilized, so be it.
The goal of these programs is specifically to prevent reoffending. There are many paths to that, and I imagine that some *do* try to change the person's sexuality (good luck), but that's not actually a requirement. I've heard of at least one that worked on getting pedophiles into adult relationships with the hope that they could change the "balance" of their desires, since pedophiles aren't (often? always?) *exclusively* pedophilic. That sounds a little more plausible to me.
But the real goal is to stop child molestation, regardless of the person's internal desires, no? And I'm fairly sure there are programs that are just working on mental and physical self-control, redirection, whatever.
(I haven't actually researched this, just stuff I picked up from a couple of NY Times articles or something, so anyone please feel free to correct me if you have actually looked into this...)
Quality offender treatment looks at a number of different aspects that play in.
A very small number of people are exclusively attracted to minors, and if they've offended, they are taught to resist this urge and find sexual gratification in solo pursuits only. (Most people with attractions to minors do not act upon this at any point in their lives.)
Other offenders have some sexual attraction to minors, but have more of an arrested development sort of profile, where they have a lot of trauma and personality concerns and aren't sure how to navigate a relationship with a peer. Many people who fit this profile also don't ever break the law, but may either have poor boundaries with minors without doing anything illegal, or may be the type to date barely legal folks considerably younger than them. These people can benefit from trauma therapy and comprehensive sexuality education.
Others don't particularly get sexual gratification and aren't attracted to minors per se, but for them it's more of a violence and power thing. These folks can also be taught to resist these urges and to learn about boundaries and appropriate ways of engaging with people and the world.
Others have a brain injury or other condition that's primarily an impulse control disorder. Sometimes they can benefit from behavioral therapies, sometimes medication, sometimes a combination, but other times may "fail" all of these things and need to be in a secure environment.
A small number of people are psychopaths and can't really be taught to resist urges and direct their pursuits to other legal and moral ways of being in the world. This isn't even universally true with psychopaths though, and there have been studies revealing people who have a psychopath brain and really don't feel remorse, yet somehow also manage to follow laws and norms and not do anything horrible. People who act upon these urges and can't really be taught otherwise usually have some combination of psychopath wiring along with massive trauma that's rewired the brain to just not trust anything.
Your use of terminology and equivalencies suggests you don't know much about this topic.
You realize that pedophiles are only a portion of those who offend children, right? And of those, most aren't exclusively pedophiles. Also, most pedophiles don't act on it. Pedophilia and CSA aren't synonyms.
If your children ever engage in problematic sexual behaviors, I assume you just want them executed? Not going to try any of the offender treatment approaches that have very high success rates, right? Just rid the world of them?
That much is clear. You literally don't care about understanding the nature of the problem; you'd rather pound your chest about "sick fucks" and the Aleutian Islands, and then make not-so-veiled accusations of anyone who does not share your simplistic view of the problem.
I actually find it horrifying that you're defending these scumbags on an article about a person arrested for trying to diddle two children.
I find it horrifying that you've got the crust to hurl that accusation at someone who is simply pointing out that the reality doesn't conform to your black-and-white picture. It's far too reminiscent of the current crop of lunatics who show up at school board meetings (and people's homes) screeching about "groomers".
Comments
Wow...
At first I thought this was the Tufts Medical anesthiologist that got arrested with a different pic but no, it's yet another twisted perv...
What is happening in this world....
The world has always been like this...
...see, for example, Thomas Jefferson.
True
But it was normalized then. It is criminal now - as it should be.
Disagree
It wasn’t normalized; people just uncritically repeat that or some version of “he was a man of his time.”
There was plenty contemporaneous criticism of Jefferson in regards to his relationship with Hemings. What’s normalized is the excuses society has always and still makes for powerful men who are sexual abusers.
https://www.americanantiquarian.org/Exhibitions/View/8/fig8_16.htm
Is this entrapment?
and if not, why not?
They posted an ad and the two
They posted an ad and the two perps of their own free will responded, that is not entrapment.
This guy responded to an ad
This guy responded to an ad on his own volition. No one induced him to do it.
NO
Law enforcement did not induce an innocent person to commit a crime. They did not implant the idea in his head. They did not originate the criminal plan. He went looking for sex with children on a foreign website. They set up a sting to catch any perpetrator who happened to hit their listing. He showed up at a hotel with the negotiated cash price for the illegal act. It is similar to detectives parking a nice car in an area known to be worked by habitual or professional car thieves. When they show up and jump in the seat and pop the ignition, they commit the crime based on their own mindset, not because the police forced the opportunity upon them.
Entrapment isn't an issue
Entrapment would be the result of deception - as in switching an adult woman with a young girl and then saying "oh but you were in the same room even though you turned right around and left, therefore ..."
Nobody made these guys look for ads, respond to ads, and then attempt to pay to receive the advertised services. They were snared because they thought they had found what they were looking for. In the case of the anesthesiologist, he was told the ages and then still went ahead with expecting to "complete the transaction".
Contrast this situation - willful response to advertising rape opportunities - with the ugly case a few years back where a father was actively trying to find guys to have sex with his 10 year old daughter. One guy that the father approached went to the cops in disgust and horror. Non pedos don't go looking for ads for sex with underage children - they report it.
Entrapment is very much an issue
Most "Catch a Predator" stings today do rely on bait-and-switch and deliberately push the boundaries on entrapment. In their sex ads police obviously can't post pictures of an actual 12 year old girl so they instead post pictures of a 25-year old cop or they present the option of sex with the mom. This gets johns to reply to the ad and start talking. Then police follow a script that maintains uncertainty over the jane's age. Then the moment the john shows up, he's arrested, whether he's a white knight or just an uncommitted slob trying to figure out if this is roleplay. Police do this because there really aren't so many highly motivated child predators out there to justify them running a sting.
The summary above plays into it. Adam wrote that the ad was "posted on an overseas Web site that caters to child-sex seekers" which makes you imagine a sketchy thing like www.bored-lolitas-near-you.ru. But this is because of misdirection by the very careful wording the agent put in their affidavit:
which accurately describes reddit and tiktok, large social media sites which are foreign owned, and among their millions of post, sometimes advertise paid sex. The agent also paraphrases the john in some places while using direct quotes in others. You can bet that the agent will paraphrase anything exculpatory while quoting anything incriminating.
In this case, with the john spurting out with the Santa Claus line without prompting, it's a a good bet he was on a path to do harm. But most cases originating from police stings should be looked at skeptically.
FYI
reddit is an American company owned by an American company
Not in this case
They were told the ages of the girls that they were to rape for money.
There is no bait and switch here. Only buyers remorse once they were busted for going after what they went looking for.
It has little to do with deception
If the government uses deceit to 'trap' someone, there could be possibly an entrapment defense.
See 'Delorean". He was the only non government agent in the whole crowd. He was coerced into dealing some coke to save his car company.
He was induced. So far so good. But: he was NOT 'predisposed' to commit the crime. If not for the overwhelming pressure brought about by the government, he would never have gotten himself mixed up in it.
He was not 'predisposed' to commit the crime.
If you go looking for something, you are 'predisposed' to finding it. It's a bit more complicated than that, but basically it is an entrapment killer.
Hard Truth
I am in full support of prison reform and think society needs to do more to help people who are busted on things like drugs, petty theft, crimes of poverty, etc. Even certain violent crimes - gang related violence, assault involving addition, etc, are worth looking at for whether prison can be rehabilitation...
But sexual crimes against children? There is no fixing that. There is something deeply broken in these men and the justice system and all of the psychiatric field has yet to find anything, ANYTHING that can fix them. Chemical castration was popular for a while, until it was shown it just results in these offenders committing crimes using *other* objects, which cause severe injuries to the victims. They reoffend at rates exceeding any other crime and feel NO GUILT about it - this dude texted the pretend pimp TEN TIMES in under four hours - this isn't a tortured soul struggling with something, this is man gleefully excited to rape a child.
Once they've been convicted once that should be it. Life in Prison. No Parole. No reintegration into society.
Definitely agree people with
Definitely agree people with this predilection should live the rest of their life in a little colony together somewhere.
Torture is the Solution
I do hope there is a special place in hell for anyone that hurts children. No child should suffer from the darkness of someones soul.
There should be a special
There should be a special place here for them - prison. This guy was convicted in 2019 but out and free in 2022, on the prowl for more rape? Or did he not even go to prison at all??
How would that be the solution?
Most likely it would derange the abuser to the point where they would be more likely to abuse a child again due to the stress.
History has shown torture is not an effective deterrent for anything.
Hell is nonexistent and souls are mythical creatures.
The stupidity in your answer is torture
My apologies. Your wisdom has changed my mind.
Maybe arresting him and letting him go with a promise to be nicer is a better answer.
Oh, I see.
You were just virtue signaling.
Carry on.
I don't know how they think
I don't know how they think this is funny, and I have kids. I think it's perverts taking off a perverts
Mkay
Citations needed. Please show us where such approaches have been effective for addressing the issue.
I'll wait.
Torture would just mean future victims would be tortured
That's the way it works.
Olds
We remember when torture was something that only bad people did. Then we elected some of them, and Jack Bauer said it was OK. Now we have random dickheads on the internet prescribing it for sick people. Sad.
The only solution
is to send these sick fucks to some island in the Aleutians. They're incorrigible. You cannot make a person change who they're attracted too.
Let them live a cold, dark existence and figure it out for themselves.
Sigh.
Since most people here are talking in hyperbole and purely emotional arguments, I'll weigh in as a certified court expert on topics including offender evaluation and treatment.
Studies are inconsistent in terms of figures, because there aren't good operational definitions for the wide range of things that get called "offender treatment" nor is there a clear operational definition as to what constitutes reoffending (self-report? criminal involvement? getting fired for boundary stuff but not breaking any laws?)
However, it's entirely a myth that every person who offends is a complete irredeemable psychopath and needs to be burned at the stake.
This also doesn't mean that anyone approves of CSA or thinks we should just ask them nicely to not do that again.
It is appropriate that the alleged perpetrator of such an offense be held and evaluated.
It is also appropriate to understand that a good number of people successfully complete robust offender treatment and go on to not further offend (either in a criminal or clinical sense).
I literally don't care.
If you have sexually assaulted a child, you most certainly are irredeemable. In my opinion, you've given up your right to live in a civilized society, and you should be banished to live your miserable life in the worst circumstances possible.
These are not good people regardless of how much "treatment" they've had. Do you believe in gay conversion therapy as well?
Studies have shown 30-40% of child molesters reoffend within 20 years. Are you comfortable with that number? I'd also argue that number is low considering the vast majority of sex offenses go unreported (as a "certified court expert" should know).
You'll never, ever convince me that any child sex offender is a good person. I actually find it horrifying that you're defending these scumbags on an article about a person arrested for trying to diddle two children. It's gross.
“ Do you believe in gay
“ Do you believe in gay conversion therapy as well?”
What does homosexuality have to do with child abuse? Do you honestly believe they are comparable? That’s sick.
Your idea of what a civilized society is, is not very civilized.
Reading Comprehension
I'm not comparing homosexuality with child molestation, you stupid asshole.
I'm talking about attempting to change a persons sexual orientation and what they're sexually attracted too. Therapy and treatment does not change a person attracted to the same sex, nor does it work for people attracted to children.
If not wanting my kids to live in a world with pedophiles is uncivilized, so be it.
That's not the goal, though
The goal of these programs is specifically to prevent reoffending. There are many paths to that, and I imagine that some *do* try to change the person's sexuality (good luck), but that's not actually a requirement. I've heard of at least one that worked on getting pedophiles into adult relationships with the hope that they could change the "balance" of their desires, since pedophiles aren't (often? always?) *exclusively* pedophilic. That sounds a little more plausible to me.
But the real goal is to stop child molestation, regardless of the person's internal desires, no? And I'm fairly sure there are programs that are just working on mental and physical self-control, redirection, whatever.
(I haven't actually researched this, just stuff I picked up from a couple of NY Times articles or something, so anyone please feel free to correct me if you have actually looked into this...)
Correct
Quality offender treatment looks at a number of different aspects that play in.
A very small number of people are exclusively attracted to minors, and if they've offended, they are taught to resist this urge and find sexual gratification in solo pursuits only. (Most people with attractions to minors do not act upon this at any point in their lives.)
Other offenders have some sexual attraction to minors, but have more of an arrested development sort of profile, where they have a lot of trauma and personality concerns and aren't sure how to navigate a relationship with a peer. Many people who fit this profile also don't ever break the law, but may either have poor boundaries with minors without doing anything illegal, or may be the type to date barely legal folks considerably younger than them. These people can benefit from trauma therapy and comprehensive sexuality education.
Others don't particularly get sexual gratification and aren't attracted to minors per se, but for them it's more of a violence and power thing. These folks can also be taught to resist these urges and to learn about boundaries and appropriate ways of engaging with people and the world.
Others have a brain injury or other condition that's primarily an impulse control disorder. Sometimes they can benefit from behavioral therapies, sometimes medication, sometimes a combination, but other times may "fail" all of these things and need to be in a secure environment.
A small number of people are psychopaths and can't really be taught to resist urges and direct their pursuits to other legal and moral ways of being in the world. This isn't even universally true with psychopaths though, and there have been studies revealing people who have a psychopath brain and really don't feel remorse, yet somehow also manage to follow laws and norms and not do anything horrible. People who act upon these urges and can't really be taught otherwise usually have some combination of psychopath wiring along with massive trauma that's rewired the brain to just not trust anything.
Cherry picking much?
Your use of terminology and equivalencies suggests you don't know much about this topic.
You realize that pedophiles are only a portion of those who offend children, right? And of those, most aren't exclusively pedophiles. Also, most pedophiles don't act on it. Pedophilia and CSA aren't synonyms.
If your children ever engage in problematic sexual behaviors, I assume you just want them executed? Not going to try any of the offender treatment approaches that have very high success rates, right? Just rid the world of them?
You don't, huh?
That much is clear. You literally don't care about understanding the nature of the problem; you'd rather pound your chest about "sick fucks" and the Aleutian Islands, and then make not-so-veiled accusations of anyone who does not share your simplistic view of the problem.
I find it horrifying that you've got the crust to hurl that accusation at someone who is simply pointing out that the reality doesn't conform to your black-and-white picture. It's far too reminiscent of the current crop of lunatics who show up at school board meetings (and people's homes) screeching about "groomers".
Suddenly
Thanos
Story correction
The investigation was by Homeland Security, not the FBI. Story corrected.
There’s bigger fish
Why not go after the people in this club who are in high places, instead of just plucking the little guppies on the edge of the pond?
Oh, yeah, those people are their bosses. This way, they at least look like they’re doing something useful.