Hey, there! Log in / Register
Opposition rises against dedicated bus lanes on Columbia Road
By adamg on Thu, 08/29/2024 - 9:27am
The Dorchester Reporter reports not everybody is enamored of a city proposal to do to Columbia Road between Blue Hill and Massachusetts avenues what happened on Columbus Avenue. Quotes one pizza-shop owner who predicts dedicated bus lanes would add 20 minutes to all his deliveries.
Neighborhoods:
Free tagging:
Ad:
Support Universal Hub
Help keep Universal Hub going. If you like what we're up to and want to help out, please consider a (completely non-deductible) contribution.
Comments
womp womp
the city needs to prioritize everything that isn't a car.
The 16 is a nightmare
Columbia is not a highway. The same people that complain about the T, are preventing the T from functioning. Making people drive the speed limit will not add 20 minutes to anyone's trip
I'm all in favor of making people obey speed limits
...if the speed limits are set rationally.
Most drivers know how fast they can safely take a particular stretch of road. So, if you set the limit at the speed that most drivers actually drive, you'll get a limit that only needs to be enforced against drivers whom the majority would judge to drive too fast.
But we don't do that hereabouts; instead, we pull arbitrary numbers out of our asses. If most people on the roads ignore speed limits, it's because the limits are so low that they aren't taken seriously.
"Arbitrary Numbers"
In fact the speed limit of 25mph is based upon a wealth of actual data that shows that speed limit drastically reduces pedestrian injury and fatalities in the case of accidents. It almost halves the fatality changes from 30 mph, and, gives drivers considerable more time to react to avoid accidents all together. It is also the standard across the world in cities from Tokyo to London to Paris to NYC to LA and more.
So, no, what is arbitrary is driver's deciding what is a "safe" speed over actual empirical evidence and study, and the city should do all it can to enforce it.
Not if no one obeys it, it doesn't.
Prohibition was supposed to save a lot of lives, too, but no one obeyed the law.
Laws are only as good as the confidence people put in them. It's likely true that a lot fewer people would die if everyone drove 25, but no one does. That isn't going to change, and the law needs to reflect reality.
No more stop signs
Never see anyone obeying, that isn't going to change and the law needs to reflect reality.
Some pedestrians may die but thats a sacrifice necturus is willing to let them take.
People stop at stop signs
But they don't drive 25.
Remember Jimmy Carter's 55 MPH national speed limit, and how well that went over? Drivers all across the country sang along with Sammy Hagar.
People do not stop at stop signs
They roll through em.
No I don't remember, Ronnie Raygun was the first president in my lifetime.
Poor deflection into the stands.
You're confusing
Cyclists with motorists. Motorists are the ones who stop at stop signs. Cyclists blow through them.
@Waquiot - Do you travel
@Waquiot - Do you travel anywhere besides Downtown Boston when you're in town? Even Downtown is not a guarantee if you think about Tremont Street near the Common. Motor vehicle drivers routinely drift through those lights.
Columbia Road is even worse through the entire length.
In fact I do
I live in Roslindale, where I was knocked on my ass last fall when a cyclist blew through a red light and ploughed into me crossing the street.
Also, I work in the Back Bay, where I've learned that following the lights will probably result in the same thing that happened to me in my own neighborhood. My folly was thinking that Roslindale cyclists would at least try to avoid me.
Pics?
I believe you. But how could you let this go without recording the evidence of the crime?
I don’t believe them.
I lost faith in this one for honesty a while back.
The agenda grinding away on auto pilot in the background can’t be easily ignored. Needs more motor oil.
haha
Best laugh of the day so far
Nope
I see both do it and you see it too!
Also, I said people don't stop at stop signs. I never mentioned a distinction between motorists and cyclists, thats on you.
When are you going to start collecting rent?
Are there any stop signs on
Are there any stop signs on Columbia Road?
I dunno
Was speaking on stop signs in general.
Nah
And at least on my street people blast through the red light, and cross the double yellow, and blast down the street 50 mph. I guess this is just fine, drivers gonna drive, amiright?
p.s. highways and city streets are a completely apples to oranges comparison.
moving the goalposts on every reply?
CCTV enforcement is required. We cannot supply the amount of staff required to enforce traffic laws. Repeal the Jaywalking law. It is not enforced, but it is used daily by insurance companies to reduce liability. Getting rid of this law would force the auto industry lobby to switch sides and support safe streets.
Well said.
.
Yeah, no one obeys
Be cause we have 0 traffic enforcement in the city. They also don't obey red lights, stop signs, double yellow lines, no turn on red, THE GOD DAMN FUCKING BOX at interactions, using turn signals, tailgating, and blast through city streets at 40-60+ mph. Let's just get rid of all those rules and go full libertarian on traffic laws.
We can't afford to staff the
We can't afford to staff the enforcement need to curb selfish drivers. CCTV enforcement is the only way.
“Can’t afford?”
If the fines collected aren’t covering the cost of enforcement, something isn’t adding up. Policy makers need to be careful; you don’t want the revenue tail wagging the enforcement dog, as that leads to abuse, but the economics need to make sense
enforcement is for safety not revenue
Regardless, we can't afford a squad car at every intersection on Columbia, every day.
“ you don’t want the revenue
“ you don’t want the revenue tail wagging the enforcement dog, ”
Sure you do. Raise the fines as well. Anything that works to increase safety is good.
Let’s stop being prissy about it.
cctv raises an obscene amount
cctv raises an obscene amount of money. But it does slow cars down where it is used. I think the best plan would be for the city use revenue to build out the camera network, and then rebate excess to the vehicle excise tax. Although since the excise tax doesn't pay for half that the city spends on cars, it should be higher.
Is it the speed limit, or
Is it the speed limit, or pedestrian inattention? You should always slow down a tad at crosswalks and intersections. Also, freedom isn't free. 25 mph is not so onerous in certain stretches, but in others the organic speed limit is 40 mph like Greenough and the Hammond Pond Parkway.
Also, wasn’t the “Silver Line” supposed to never experience a red light owing to “technology?” I don’t ride the SL, did they (we) get that sorted out?
Enforcement skill issue
Cyclists and motorists know the police aren't enforcing traffic laws, so why bother following them?
American drivers kill 43,000
American drivers kill 43,000 people per year and seriously injure hundreds of thousands. You want this group of dangerous fools deciding how fast they should be able to drive?! Please turn in your license.
LOL!
Yes, drivers know best. They are never wrong, self absorbed or over confident.
Other road users can just go blow it out their bungholes.
"Papadopoulos wants to see more parking."
There is a municipal parking lot thats a 4 minute walk away.
Edit: Also worth pointing out that the Dorchester Reporter cover image for this article shows a box truck parked on the sidewalk and blocking the crosswalk. Not great optics.
a 4 minute walk to parking
a 4 minute walk to parking does not work for convenience oriented businesses.
Every time without fail the
Every time without fail the same people come out to oppose these things, predict gloom and doom, and then everything works out fine. Same will happen here. City shouldn't listen to them.
If by "bus lane" they mean "new double parking lane", then okay
Bus lanes are a great idea...... but only if it's enforced. Currently, now, there is zero enforcement. On the 311 app, you can see dozens and dozens of reports put through for parking/standing in bus lane on Washington in Roslindale. Boston parking never responds, nor comes out to Roslindale to ticket.
Without enforcement, which we can assume there will none, is a terrible idea. Throwing these bus lanes with zero intent to enforce, is worse than not trying to improve transit at all.
Like digging up holes to plant new trees, then never planting the new trees, and just walking away.
buses have camera's
Enforcement could be pretty easy if the law was changed.
Thank God for the Dorchester
Thank God for the Dorchester Reporter. The people are correct saying that there has been poor outreach and communication on this.
Didn't anyone learn anything from the botched Blue Hill Avenue/28X ?
What is botched about it?
What is botched about it?
These roads are wide because there used to be street cars in the middle. Everyone speeds and it is very dangerous. We need more bus lanes and less cars.
Read a little history - maybe
Read a little history - maybe learn from it.
https://www.universalhub.com/node/29126
That's just one article. Go enter "28X" in the Universal Hub search box and you can peruse the whole saga.
Cowardly politicians
There is nothing wrong with that plan, the local politicians wouldn't risk it. Look how long it took to outlaw smoking in public places.
Cars are ruining the US and giving residents shorter lives. How many children between the ages of 6 to 16 can walk 2 miles? How many adults can walk one mile? How many residents have lung problems? How many residents have ruined credit from car loans? How many residents own a car that depreciates until is worth nothing but own no real-estate?
The economy in the 50's was booming. This city had a 100, 000 more people but only a 25% of the cars we have now.
Not for nothing
But a huge part of that population were children/kids. We in fact have more households (and housing units) today than we had back at the peak population in the 50s.
Kids that could walk 5 miles.
Kids that could walk 5 miles. Haven't you noticed how much of the traffic is kids being driven to school every day in private cars? That should be outlawed.
Cin - "was", not "is"
Cin - "was", not "is"
It was 2009.
The 28X or whatever other names they gave it was developed & released by the agencies/city/state with insufficient (to put it kindly) community consultation & involvement.
It might have been a good plan. It might have been a bad plan. If they had worked more & earlier with the community, they might have been able to finesse it to get most of the important features in it.
Instead, they dropped it on the neighborhoods with the tone of "this is what is going to happen" and got a LOT of blowback.
It got stopped. Large parts of it never got built. Some of the busway stuff on Columbus/Seaver did, but most of the Blue Hill Avenue proposal died - just tweaked some bus stops.
What the agencies/city/state is proposing now? It might be a good idea. It might be a bad idea. At the moment, though, they are much too close to the same bad approach from 15 years ago.
Funded by who? The anti safe
Funded by who? The anti safe street lobby was around then and is the same today.
Guess what
They are putting dedicated bus lanes in Blue Hill Ave now, and down American Legion. Both projects have had a ton of community input. This one will, too. End of the day, though, it's a dedicated bus lane not the razing of the West End.
Poftak I Snort.
Poftak.
You're not wrong
But you need to get everyone on board before proceeding. People will be upset with any change, especially if they are surprised by it.
You will never get everyone
You will never get everyone on board on any topic ever. Half the country would rather kids starve than get free lunch at school. The experts and the politicians we elected should make the decisions. That is what they are paid and elected to do. I don't care what a greedy, lazy pizza shop owner thinks about bus lanes.
Let me guess
Let me guess...the MENSA members who visit Nicky P's House of Pizza aren't civic engineers?
They added bus lanes to Brighton Ave in Allston...they didn't even have the kind of room Columbia Rd has. Traffic is the same as it has always been on that road.
This sort of "any man on the street" style "petition" or surveying is really really stupid. There's no homespun "I've lived here for yeahs" folk knowledge that's going to determine if they should put that road on a diet and add dedicated bus lanes.
Neither is Wu or her chief of streets
Centre St is a disaster, Boylston street, you guessed it. Disaster.
I still haven’t seen anyone use the bike lane on American Legion.
I, too, am against bus lanes on Columbia Road
Because we should go back to when it had streetcar tracks in the median.
Streetcars should be the long term goal
But short term, let's get center running bus lanes on to every street that once had a median running streetcar. Once that network is rebuilt as BRT, and the concept is proven, we can start upgrading to rail transit on the restored rights of way. It's a multi-step process both in terms of spending resources and shifting the politics.
so how long
so how long is 'proven'
*looks at Silver Line waterfront* - Opened 2004, so 20 years ago.
*looks at Silver Line Washington Street* Opened in 2002, so 22 years ago.
I hate to be that guy but I've been around the earth too many times to fall for the "BRT is a pathway to light rail" premise and end up just being disappointed.
Yes the Silver LInE has some excuses why it cannot but... if you believe BRT will lead to LRV's.. we were sadly mistaken by these two.
I agree with @cybah on this
I agree with @cybah on this one. What a boondoggle the Silver Line was/is. The politicians promise the world about public transportation but never follow through.
We learned from that boondogle
Look not at the Washington St Silver Line but at Columbus Ave. There is a qualitative difference, and what is proposed here for Columbia Road incorporates what we've learned.
Unfortunately, the time scale might indeed be decades
But two points you need to consider:
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Even BRT (done right, not like the SL4/5 on Washington St) is far better than buses sitting in traffic.
We need both.
.
Can't we maximize the use of the Fairmount line
And try and shift people off the 28 bus where the two run parallel?
Same for buses along columbia road, what is the destination of most riders of the bus along that bus route?
Maybe add a transfer connection between the Redline and Fairmount line whete they run close to one another near Park street in Dot?
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wixstatic.com%...
Yes!
Yes!
Those are attainable without disrupting other features and without permanently obstructing the options for improvements such as busways in the future.
Get equipment to increase frequency on the Fairmount - doesn't disrupt or rule out anything on Columbia.
Run more buses on Columbia as it is now - none of the 15-20 minute headway (at best) on the #16. Give people better alternatives to driving. ...and guess what? If you built a busway, you'd need to increase bus frequency anyway or it would be ridiculously underused.
Columbia Road needs to be
Columbia Road needs to be disrupted. It is dangerous for pedestrians. The Fairmont can never have enough stations to support low mobility and disabled people.
You've got a point
Between Washington Street and Mass Ave, the Fairmont Line is a block or 2 away, and beyond Mass Ave, you've got the Red Line.
I get the argument that you can't end traffic by adding a lane, but Columbia Road is major enough of a road that 2 lanes is a necessity.
It is a major road, but I don
It is a major road, but I don't agree about the lanes needed. Two travel lanes, 1 turning lane, 2 bus lanes and 2 parking lanes. The average speed is much higher than 25mph. If the 16 had priority, more people would use it. I think that the people that live there are more important than the people cutting through.
I'm going to assume
You've never driven on Columbia Road.
If you had, you'd know that the two lanes in each direction is justified.
They took lanes out on Mass Ave, and the results, well, the results are why this plan is being opposed as strongly as it is.
And before you start going on about what I know, I took the 16 for 3 years in high school. I abandoned it because of the Boston Street traffic. That's where 2 lanes became 1 entering a major junction. Thankfully, they didn't do the diversion to South Bay back then in the morning.
Isn't the plan to remove the
Isn't the plan to remove the curbed dividers and place the bus lanes in the space provided? I'm getting confused here...
I lived on Columbia Road
A couple people died in front of my house.
It is not a highway. The road was originally designed with 2 lanes for the streetcars. I still live in Dorchester and the traffic does not justify this fake urban dangerous highway. Bringing cars down to the speed limit does not count as an obstruction.
It is kind of bizarre that you cite your experience on the 16. A dedicated bus lane would make the 16 the fastest way to go.
You read selectively
My experience on the 16, as I noted above, is that it traveled well until it left Columbia Road and headed up Boston Street.
And the road was designed for 2 lanes in each direction. As others have pointed out, the streetcar ran in the median. It was the same way on Blue Hill Ave.
not true
There was a street car in the middle. One lane each directed and parking.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/1921_BERy_system_map...
I'll see your map
And raise you a 1920s photograph.
Sorry, I don't know how to imbed, but for those who don't want to click on the link, it's Columbia Road at Stoughton Street. 1 parking lane, 2 driving lane, and the streetcar in the median going towards Edward Everett Square. It was designed like that.
your link doesn't work
https://www.dbedc.org/blog/uphams-corner-named-a-national-historic-distr...
https://bwht.org/dorchester-tour/
But these pictures show one car lane in each direction.
Fairmont and Red Line do not serve the same corridor
Columbia Road is a crosstown route. It needs more frequent buses that don't become stuck in traffic. Telling route 16 riders to instead pick one of two rail routes that cross but do not parallel Columbia is not a reasonable option.
Also, the closest the Fairmont and Red Lines come to each other aside from at South Station a 0.8 mile walk, whether it's New Market to Andrew or Talbot to Shawmut. That is not a viable transfer solution.
No.
For the simple reason bus are able to do frequent in between stops and trains are not.
TRIGGER
I swear "bike lane" is a trigger word for some people.
You know as much as it is nice to have public input on projects, sometimes that becomes a problem in itself. We wonder why things never get done or take so g-d long. Exhibit A.
I mean I get it, we have this because of things like the Urban Renewal of the West End or I-695. But sometimes I wonder where the line of input should be.
There already is a bike lane
In fact, it's one of the oldest bike lanes in the city, being installed in the 1990s. Moving parking out 3 feet and moving the bike lane to the curb while preserving two traffic lanes would satisfy the bike crowd without antagonizing drivers. But perhaps antagonizing drivers is the point of the exercise.
Those painted line are not
Those painted line are not very safe. You can barely see them in most places. A shared bus bike lane serves the most people.
Not 3 feet, but 5
You can't do parking protected bike lanes without a 2 foot buffer, because the curb to the right prevents the ability of the rider to swerve out of range from a door opening in their path. A correctly proportioned parking protected bike lane is great. What you've described ain't it. Also, parking protected lanes requiring daylighting at intersections which means removal of some parking. I'm good with all of this, but it's mostly things that will not address the complaints of the petition signers.
Columbia Road was built to be an Olmsted parkway
connecting Franklin Park to Carson Beach. It should be restored to its original configuration.
Olmsted?
Perhaps it was an Olmsted concept, but it wasn't an Olmsted design. Any idea of a parkway was abandoned before construction began.
Junk food dealer Upham's
Junk food dealer Upham's House of Pizza has 6 lanes dedicated to cars in front of it. Apparently that's not enough to accommodate the increasingly physically unfit clientele who can hardly walk anywhere.
This whole opposition campaign was largely steered by wealthy, bored and reactionary Jones Hill retiree Marty Glynn who hasn’t met a local change that she doesn’t like. Her previous crusades include a weird campaign against pot shops. Earlier this year she started a campaign to designate an otherwise unremarkable single-family home at 190 Bowdoin St. as “historical landmark” when a nonprofit developer proposed tear it down to build some 40 units of affordable housing on that land.
Sadly, except for the pot shops, her method and dedication are mostly paying off.
Greedy Lazy Pizza Shop Owner?
If you have ever worked in the food service business you would know there are no Lazy people in that line of work. Greed, well maybe we all aren't a little.....
Boston is an old city, it can only handle so many people, we can play around with all kinds of solutions, need a functioning T, wider streets, more thoughtful approaches to get a wider stream moving through more people. Maybe a significant property tax in the city could tamp down the influx of folks who want to live in Boston....
did you mean "she does like"
did you mean "she does like" ?
EMT Response Times
Columbia Rd. is the primary artery to Boston Medical Center for a big chunk of the city. My office is on Columbia and ambulances are up and down it steadily all day.
So it will be important that nothing is done to slow them down, when an extra minute may mean a life.
cars slow them down
A dedicated bus lane will fix that.
Emergency Vehicles can use the bus lane!
.