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How about a Target next to the Hole?
By adamg on Thu, 09/08/2011 - 7:50am
The Herald reports the chain is now eying part of what's left of the old Filene's building. Of course, the question is whether Tornado, um, Vornado would want to sell.
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Comments
Yes
That area really needs something like a Target - it would bring a lot of people into the city, as the only other ones around require buses to get to and from.
I have visited cities that have urbanized Target stores. Very, very handy to have around.
Yes ^ 2
This store would be hugely successful and would energize the entire surrounding area.
Has to get through the mayor first
I feel like the subject of putting in a Target came up a couple of years ago and Menino pitched a fit, saying that wasn't what he wanted in DTX. Maybe the giant, empty crater will have changed his mind, but I'm not holding my breath.
Why?
Zoned retail. That should be the end of any discussion.
It Should Be, But...
It should be, but welcome to Boston.
Irony or naivete?
Not sure which it is, but that is definitely not how the development process works in this town.
Why not?
See also "why Boston is becoming a hole".
If the process was statutory and transparent rather than patronage-based and at the whim of the mayor, maybe there wouldn't be a hole?
I'm not saying what should be, just what is
I don't disagree with your notion -- zoned for commercial use means any commercial use for which a tenant and landlord can agree. No input needed from the Mayor or his stooges at the BRA. But this isn't how it works in Boston, which I suspect you also understand.
Source please?
Where do you get the impression that Menino doesn't want a Target?
Here's a Globe article from 2005
I'd even take a Wal-Mart now
Enough is enough. Just fill the damn thing.
Ditto
But if you think the mayor doesn't want a Target per the prior post above, we are definitely not getting a Wal Mart. Whole Foods? Kohls? A TJX brand in DTX? Why only one retailer - if it's that attractive let's get a bidding war going. And I would DEFINITELY spend more time in DTX if they had a Target or a Wal Mart.
A TJX brand
There's already a T.J.Maxx at 350 Washington, right next to the Hole.
H&M / Marshall's
Isn't that H&M and Marshall's?
TJ Maxx is on the 2nd Floor
The entrance is in the corner, over the top of Marshalls.
That said, I don't see why any of this precludes a Target moving in.
And Marshall's is another TJX brand
Right now, with Filene's and the Basement and B&N gone and Borders liquidating, that ex-Woolworth's building is one of the few things drawing shoppers to the area.
Exactly
Actually, I had forgotten that there was both a Marshall's and a T.J.Maxx. I was responding to Stevil's suggestion of TJX shops as other ideas for DTX - they're already there. And yes, I think a Target in DTX would be a great idea.
Now is the time
I'm not the biggest fan of using eminent domain for seizing private property, but I think it may call for it this time. The Mayor should suggest to Vornado that now is the time to sell and cut their losses: Or. Else. That hole in the ground is causing lots of economic and social pain to the city. A Target there would bring jobs, foot traffic, and tax dollars and remove a blight which should never have gone on this long.
A Target in DTX would never
A Target in DTX would never draw a significant number of people from outside of the city since there are already so many other more convenient locations. However, I can see an Ikea being a draw. I'd rather see a high-end department store fill that hole. Let the rich drop some coin in DTX and boost the local economy and help the local businesses which have been struggling because of the hole. Macy's is expensive, but the store is a total dump and reeks of mold and mildew. I can't imagine anyone goes out of there way to shop at that particular Macy's.
Doesn't have to draw from outside the city
Maybe it's time to realize DTX can't compete with suburban malls anymore and concentrate on turning it into a shopping district for city residents and people who work downtown - along with certain niches that could bring people from outside (the jewelers' buildings).
There are now several thousand people living in and around Downtown Crossing. Throw in all the people who work downtown - and people who can easily get there by subway - and you've got yourself a market.
Well, that's exactly my
Well, that's exactly my point. DTX can't compete with suburban malls so why put a Target in there? You can't get more suburban mall than a Target, right? So, let's try something different: department store aimed at the rich. The rich have money to spend, so why not let them spend it at a high-end, big profit store in DTX?
You kidding right?
The Red/Orange lines are the main arteries of public transportation, AND DTX is in the middle of the financial district bordering China town.
It's ALWAYS packed with all sorts of shoppers.
The only bad thing I can see from this is that South Bay's Target might get screwed, since shopping and using the subway tends to be easier then the convoluted roads, or trying to catch the unreliable buses to SB.
A city sized retail store there would do tons of business from all classes. Think of how many local workers would stop in for odds and ends on the way home.
*boggles*
Do you spend any time in DTX?
Seriously?
Do you spend any time in Copley Square?
Seriously?
Do you REALLY think that people rent cars to go to suburban target stores? Or do you think that everybody who lives in the city owns a car and drives to the suburbs to buy a new set of sheets or a collander.
Seriously?
Have you ever travelled anywhere where there is a Target store inside a downtown area?
DTX has three things going for it that will support a Target-like retailer: crossroads of transport for an area without such stores, thousands of people who work in the area, and a SERIOUS lack of places to purchase groceries and basics. A Target would not only bring in people who DO NOT own cars to shop there, but would serve the working population in the area on weekdays and generate customers for the OTHER stores in DTX that don't cater to wealthy people on weekends.
A rich people department store would fail for the same reason that there is only one higher end store there now - Macy's. The rich people shopping area is now Copley, not downtown. People won't come in for a single Rich People Store when there is a whole zone nearby. The location and economy won't support it. If it would, Nordstroms would have been vying for that hole a long time ago.
Really?
More convenient locations "outside the city" perhaps ... add "if you have a car" to that. The only inner-urban ones I can think of are in Somerville (multi-bus extravaganza) and South Bay (buses there, too).
The point is that it will draw from WITHIN the city and also serve the thousands of people who come into town every day to go to work. People don't buy furniture at work and haul it on the T. They do buy clothing, groceries, and household items. Proximity to transit lines means people who do not own cars - like many students - will migrate to DTX to get housewares and basics, and possibly buy other things while they are around.
Where are all these "rich people" who will move into the city and buy stuff at a high-end store and revitalize the area with their wealth? The failure of the Natick Collection says they don't exist - even in suburbia! Copley already serves their needs, anyway. Building stuff just for rich people is total fail in the current economy and in that location. If a top-end department store were viable there, don't you think Nordstrom would have inquired?
You should see a downtown Target in action sometime.
chill out, swrrly
I'm sure it'll end up being a Wal-Mart in the end and you'll be pleased as punch! Suburbanites are always trying to suburbanize Boston and I for one would rather Boston stay urban. You have a different opinion and that's dandy for you. I live here. I pay city taxes. If I wanted to live in a Target / Wal-Mart suburb then I'd do it.
Urban is
Nordstrom? Or you have some sort of plan to fill in a multimillion dollar hole (Cause that's still it's laughable value).
Someone needs to spend a ton of money to put something there. I don't see Mom and Pop's generic corner storm having the ability to do so.
Also, a target moving in doesn't mean there's no room for additional street retail and commercial space.
Irrelevant at this point
Irrelevant at this point because it wasn't the hole that was going to be filled with the Target as had been initially implied.
Your point is ...
I don't classify things as suburbanized or urbanized in the way you do.
If a large store serves the urban population that uses transit and walks, it is urban. If WalMart came in there, it would be urban, too - unless they knocked down the entire DTX area for a parking lot. THAT would be suburbanization. The name on the store isn't important. The fact that they sell basic household and grocery items in an area where such are otherwise unavailable doesn't make them suburban - it makes them useful.
I was walking in Central Square, Cambridge the other day and noticed that the places that I went as a freshman to get a laundry basket and sheets and towels and a shower caddy, etc. were now long gone. Places like Woolworth's. They may have been seedy, but they were there and I could get to them without a car.
I suppose you applauded the demise of Woolworth's too - just too tacky and suburban to actually supply basic stuff to the middle class residents of the city! We need to be "urban" and have twenty more boutiques selling hair thingies and bling accessories please! Dog cookies, too! Oh, and another specialty shoe store! Downtown needs one of those!
Woolworth, Jax, Family Dollar
and other such stores can be found in the suburbs, too, don't you know? They must be suburban stores, thank goodness they've disappeared from Central Square!
I love that kind of place personally, because I can go get that laundry basket in 5 minutes time at the local dollar store, but would need 45 minutes to get it at a Target. An urban Target in DTX would be just the thing for so many people.
Woolworths, etc
Stores like Woolworths, Grants, Kresges, Neisners and Raymonds were once the lifesblood of downtown urban areas including DTX when it was still just "Washington Street" and traffic was allowed there. Rich and poor alike patronized these establishments. Unfortunately, many people consider themselves far to sophisticated for these types of useful retailers now. Forget the foolish notion of Target being "suburban". Turning what was Washington Street into what was planned to be a faux-suburban trafic-less area called "Downtown Crossing" in the late 70s/early 80s was the death sentence for that area.
There is a Target in Manhattan
Clearly, it is a suburban location. Of course now that I've let the cat out of the bag, somebody will come along to decry the "Manhattanization" of Boston.
A few points on Target and Natick
I would submit that Natick's housing troubles relate more to the fact that people who want to live in the suburbs and people who want to live in condos are for the large part mutually exclusive groups which stem from one group being okay with "sharing their space" while the others want more exclusivity. That is a longer conversation, however.
I think the reason that Nordstrom did not inquire is also pretty straightforward. They already had the area covered with their several suburban stores - which also suggests that they have data to suggest that their customers are more of the driving type than the T-riding type.
Finally, I think that the downtown Boston market might be a fundamentally different one from other downtowns - just as Manhattan is fundamentally different from other downtowns, with the upshot being that things at a downtown Boston Target might not be quite as great as other downtown Targets. But then again, maybe not.
Wait, the Target in
Wait, the Target in Somerville..."multi-bus extravaganza"? Do you mean the shuttles? Because I'd just grab the Green to Lechmere and ride the 87.
Or if you prefer the Red, get off at Central and grab any of the buses that go by the Watertown Mall; they've got a bigass Target there.
I do think one in DTX would be nice, however.
It doesn't have to compete with outside.
It just has to compete with South Bay.
Ikea would be awesome, but I
Ikea would be awesome, but I don't think the hole has the necessary footprint to support that store. The hole is 30,000SF. The footprint for the building alone in Stoughton is 230,000SF and has about 10 shipping docks for cargo containers. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it, but DTX is way too small.
DTX Target would draw customers from every T line
Lots of folks from Davis, Porter, Harvard, Central, Kendall areas would patronize a Target in Downtown Crossing, as it would be easier to reach than the existing stores in Somerville and Watertown.
I bet you'd also get some customers from Brookline, Newton, Quincy, Malden, and Revere.
A Target in DTX won't need to draw people from outside the city
It will draw people like me, who live in the city (South End) and have to either schlep over to South Bay via bus, borrowed car or Zipcar. I did it last week via bus to get an air mattress (which weighed about 20 lbs), only to get home to realize that it was was missing its cap and had a hole in it. Needless to say, I had to borrow a car to return it. Downtown, with its frequent bus and subway connections, would a much better location for something like that.
Have you even seen Targets in Minneapolis?
Although it may show up mostly in suburban environments across the country, if you visit Minneapolis where Target is actually based, you'll find they have a huge Target spanning the first two floors of one of their downtown office buildings. It was quite busy when I was there and had traffic going into it both from the street and the skyway network they have there. If that's not urban, I don't know what is.
They are not filling the hole
Target wants the old Filene's building, not the hole. The hole would remain with Vornado and they could develop it or sell it.
Thanks for the correction
Updated the post.
But the Filene's building doesn't really exist anymore
Unless you consider two exterior walls to be sufficient for a building. The rest of the site is a hole.
Its a puzler but a great idea
I'm confused by this too. The Filene's building is missing at least one exterior wall. It also lacks an underground parking garage, which was presumably going to be built in connection with the planned tower. Maybe Vornado is planning on building out the gagrage under both parcels and delivering the Filene's building in a state suitable for build-out? Regardless, a Target there is a great idea. The traffic they would get from the Financial District during lunch hour alone is likely to be significant. It would also obviously be attractive to anyone on the Orange or Red lines and anyone living in the Back Bay, South End, North End, Beacon Hill, Kenmore and proximate areas. As for people who refer to Target as "suburban" development, I think you are confused. Just because a store builds branches in the suburbs does not make the store "suburban." Target is a department store, just like Fileen's or Bradlees once were, but admittedly geared to a different audience. As long as it builds within the existing urban footprint (which is what they are talking about) its not "suburban." Also, as for building a "high end" store where rich people would shop there are plenty of rich people who shop at Target. The yankee mentality fosters this, as pinching your pennies is the best way to stay rich.
Is parking really needed for a downtown Target?
When the Atlantic Center Mall and its Target were built in downtown Brooklyn, right above almost every subway line and the LIRR, they built a huge parking garage. But most of their customers arrived by public transit, and the garage was underused.
Then they built the Atlantic Terminal Mall next door. The developers said, "Don't worry, *this time* we'll make sure to develop and market things so we get more car traffic." Like that's a good thing for the downtown core of a large city.
Filene's had no parking
and they were doing just fine, until some people out of state foolishly decided that it should merge with Macy's.
Sell the property first!
There is really only one point to be made here.
Will Vornado sell the property in pieces? They want to get 100 Million, the amount they paid for it.
Target may want to move to Downtown but buying that one parcel may prove to be impossible if the owners won't sell and even if they did the hole would still remain unsold.
In the article none of the parties involved commented. Only city hack Rosemary Sansone from the Downtown Crossing Asoc. / Business Improvement District commented and she won't even admit that the hole is a bad thing.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
Vornado will never comment
They have a long-standing policy of never talking to the press.
Some very well might object to a Target in DTX
I'm sorry if I missed it, but in scanning the comments so far, I think that something potentially big has been missed -
That being the possibility that many of the residents (particularly those in the newer very expensive housing) in the immediate vicinity of DTX might actually oppose a Target going in there.
I know that Target is supposedly a "higher end big box store", but one must remember that at the prices that these people paid for their units, there is no real differentiation between big boxes unless you start talking about ones called Bloomingdales or, at a minimum, a Nordstrom. A lot of these people might take the position that a Target, even when pronounced in French, might attract even more of "that element" to DTX who are "already responsible for depreciating property values in the area" [pay no attention to the macro economy, people].
Maybe this won't happen at all, but I can easily see many owners of the Ritz, 45 Province St., etc., taking this position.
Suffering Residents at the Ritz
Tough! They choose to live in a city, they get the good, the bad, and the ugly (not that Target is any of those things necessarily). Owning a condo at the Ritz means you live on the corner of Washington and Avery. It doesn't mean that you have a greater right to establish what kind of commerce takes place down the street.
But in thinking about this location, Washington and Avery, Target would represent a significant improvement in the quality of commerce over the drug dealing and prostitution that still goes on right at the front door.