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City officials oppose breakfast at proposed South Boston sub shop; don't want methadone patients hanging around
By adamg on Wed, 07/31/2013 - 11:17am
The Boston Licensing Board will decide whether to allow a Subway franchise to open on Broadway as early as 7 a.m. City officials said they could only support a 10 a.m. opening time.
Franchisee Navin Patel's had originally asked for a 6 a.m. opening. His lawyer noted that the Starbucks next door and the Dunkin' Donuts across the street open at 5 a.m. He acknowledged concerns about methadone patients coming down Broadway but said Subway requires its franchisees to offer breakfast.
Both the mayor's office and City Councilor Bill Linehan's offices said that just wouldn't do. A Linehan rep said the area already has plenty of places at which to get breakfast and that residents are concerned about loitering should the Subway open at 7 a.m.
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Comments
How about doing something
How about doing something about the methadone "patients" then?
Meth heads want to eat fresh, too
So they can hang out on one side of the street and not the other? Get real!
WTF
Being in treatment for substance abuse is not a crime and is not a reason to be discouraged from being in a restaurant.
And having worked with people participating in methadone treatment, I'll say that about half of the folks in treatment, you'd never know it -- they go to work, raise kids, whatever, and act just like anyone. But yes, there also are certainly people with histories of addiction who've missed major parts of developing social skills and maturity, and these folks stand out in a crowd. But you know what? If someone is actually being disruptive and won't stop when you ask them to keep it down, then, yes, you ask them to leave, no matter what their reason. But if someone just isn't as refined or classy as you think people ought to be, then so what? It's a freakin' Subway.
It should be a crime, though
Junkies are the worst. There oughtta be a law. They should send all those people to the salt mines like back in Roman times.
Junkies ≠ people in treatment
Participating in methadone treatment requires people to not be using illicit drugs. They start out having to go to dosing and counseling every day, so they can be monitored for a while before starting to get any take-home doses. If they're under the influence, or not cooperating in some way, they get kicked out.
The people who you see who are in treatment and making asses of themselves aren't likely under the influence; they're more likely what people in substance abuse treatment call "dry drunks," where they're no longer using, but they've missed several years of growing up and learning to act like an adult, not to mention still being freaked out by how different the world feels when sober, so they may well be mouthing off and hustling their "friends" for a quarter and whatnot, but they aren't actually posing a danger to anyone like someone who is actively using might be. And again, there are also plenty of people in substance abuse treatment where you'd never know it. Some people do methadone treatment for decades. Your doctor, your lawyer, your kid's teacher...any of them could be in treatment.
You Can't Fight Drugs With More Drugs
The problem people have is that junkies going to methadone clinics are not being "treated" they're being "supplied".
Might as well just give them heroin there for all the good methadone is doing. Methadone is such a blatant scam.
When those junkies are quitting cold turkey as part of their treatment program, then I can see they are trying to get their life together.
But you know people are also not talking about those perfectly normal appearing users at the clinics when they complain.
Specifically it's about the trashy junkies hanging out being trashy. And you know what we would hate them without heroin too. And quite blithely condemn those people and all their trashy ilk to concentration camps even if there were no drugs involved.
Wow. Way to own it. I like
Wow. Way to own it. I like how you speak with the authority and conviction of an expert, while displaying the opposite. You are an amazing piece of work. Bravo.
How little you know
Portugal has halved its drug crime problem in a little over a decade.
You know how?
TREATMENT! Freely available. Decriminalization for users.
Drug addiction is a PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM that results in a crime problem. Address drug use as a health issue, treat the addicts rather than house and feed them in prisons, you get fewer drug related problems and the cost to society is a lot less.
READ
READ MORE
Because Subway isn't "high end"
I'm concerned that they are giving Subway a hard time about opening early just because it's not a higher-end chain. I've seen plenty of questionable people loitering in Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks (not necessarily in South Boston, just in general) so it's not like those chains have policies against loitering. Why give Subway a hard time and not Starbucks or Dunkin?
Admittedly, the loitering at the Broadway T stop is getting out of control.
Dunkin Donuts is not a " high end chain" either
yes, it is
America runs in Dunkies
Hypochrites
If there was a Subway in City Point and the residents opposed this, all the do-gooders would be bitching about where are the people who work the graveyard shift going to eat?
Now that it's the Yups down Broadway Station (who mind you bought expensive condos next to a train station and methadone clinic) opposing this, it's alright.
Huh?
What the fuck are you even talking about? Literally no one on this board opposes the Subway. You think Linehan is bought and paid for by the "Yups"? Then do something about it, but you're certifiable.
And further more
If you can name a restaurant in City Point besides Local 149, Sullivans, or the Galley, I'll eat my hat. We could use some food down the end of Broadway that isn't a hot dog.
Just need to get your facts right
You transplants need to understand that City Point starts at G Street runs to Farragut Road and East 1st Street to Day Boulevard. There are plenty of restaurants and food establishments in this area. Maybe next time you get suckered into buying a condo in the city you won't be so fast to believe what the realtors told you.
Loitering?
Isn't that Subway's problem to deal with, not the city's, if people linger too long taking up table space while other customers are waiting?
This question always keeps coming up
This is what I don't get about what the licensing board does.
Owner: "Can I do X (something completely reasonable for any business to want to do...and completely regular compared to anywhere else in the world)?"
Police: "We don't want them to do that. It would mean doing our job more."
Community Group: "We don't want them to do that. It would mean our neighborhood wouldn't be so quaint and parochial."
City: "We don't want them to do that. It would be just like the other 10 places doing that already."
Licensing Board: "No, you can't do that."
Protectionism
So the loitering isn't a problem at places that open at 5 a.m. in the same neighborhood, but will be a problem if this place opens at 7 a.m.? Sounds like Subway's gotta drop a few bucks in Linehan's coffers, though I'm not sure what can be done about Menino's opposition at this point.
Bingo
If places in the area are already open, absolutely no reason to deny Subway.
Paula Abdul
o/~ Two steps forward.. two steps back... o/~
Seriously.. come on licensing board? Really? this is your concern.
Like others have said, instead of impeding business, how about you do something about the problem instead. Stopping Subway from opening up isn't going to solve anything. They'll just congregate elsewhere. stupid.
Really who are these people? Do they have a brain? They must live in the burbs seriously..
Follow the rules...
And you get the OK. Why does government in this town get to decide how much of anything we need/want/have? Government is the umpire - not the manager. That goes for Subway and WalMart and Chik Fil A and liquor stores and taxis and everything else.
That goes for Subway and
Ha ha, that's cute.
Government is the umpire -
That's a fantastic quote...simple and completely accurate.
Umpires
Government is already the umpire -- making the wrong call because of inability to see/improper positioning. And then being really stubborn about it.
;)
seems to me..
that this problem did not bother you when it came to opening the McDonald's in Allston at an earlier hour. So why do we have a different set of rules for Southie??
Any chain takeout restaurant will have heroin users milling about outside, if nothing else it is a place to use the bathroom
Moreover
Why does there seem to be a different set of rules for Dunks?
To be fair
"City officials" also brought up the same "methadone discussion" when the Allston McDonald's wanted earlier hours.
They did get an earlier opening, but "fear of methadone" was definitely part of the discussion.
IMO, it's completely stupid to punish everyone in the neighborhood because there happens to be a methadone clinic up the street. And I still don't see what good it does to have a business closed at an hour when there's customers. I'd much rather have it staffed and active with employees who keep an eye on the property. Plus there's video cameras and regular folks coming in and out.
Here are some ideas besides
Here are some ideas besides banning breakfast restaurants:
- Ask the methadone clinic not to open so early in the day.
- Move the methadone clinic somewhere without residential neighbors.
- Encourage more early-morning restaurants, so clinic patients won't be concentrated in just a few places.
- Open some sort of day center in the clinic, so patients don't have to hang out in fast food places all day.
1. methadone clinics need to
1. methadone clinics need to open early enough that people can get to work after
2. methadone clinics need to be in places where people can get to them
3. sure, sounds good
4. many people who take methadone don't need a day center. they have lives, and jobs, etc.
Also, what's with the NIMBYism?
What do I know from the
What do I know from the scheduling needs of methadone clinics? Just what I read here: http://www.universalhub.com/2013/allston-ready-mcd... -- that patients need a place to hang out between their dose in the morning and their counseling later in the day.
Maybe some patients are normal people working high-powered executive jobs. But there can still be a day center for the people who need it.
And you call it NIMBYism, I call it putting facilities where it makes the most sense.
More clinics
There aren't very many clinics, and some areas don't have any, so people might be traveling from Revere to Boston or whatnot using public transport, and they don't want to spend all day on the T, so they loiter. Newly clean people are often really anxious too, so they don't want to stray far and risk being late.
We need more methadone clinics so there's a smaller one in every neighborhood. Less traveling, no need to hang out all day, no giant clinics where everyone who sees it knows the place is a methadone clinic and what time dosing is. Oh, and the mental health system in general needs to get their heads out of their asses and not insist that you go to the methadone program that's affiliated with your psychiatrist, or affiliated with your job training program or whatever. Let people go to the closest one that has an open slot.
There's nothing wrong with NIMBYism
Or, more properly, the attitude is not really "not in my back yard," it's "not in anybody's back yard."
We don't place, for example, fish rendering plants, or oil refineries, or nuclear waste reprocessing facilities in the middle of residential areas for good reason. Jails, drug abuse clinics, and shelters that house people whose friends and families want nothing to do with them are, in general, hellish things to have near your house. And before you get all high-horsey about me desiring some kind of gated suburban paradise, I know many of the street people in my neighborhood by name; I stop and talk with them; I treat them with respect and as the neighbors that they are, and I donate to the local soup kitchen, whose presence, of course, attracts trouble, but I donate anyhow.
loitering
You know where poeople tend to loiter? Empty store fronts...
I walk down broadway every morning. There is ZERO truth of any loitering problem IMO (and yes, I walk by the burger king as well).
Seems to me this is overreaction to what went down last week. Spineless Linehan and Menino didn't want an easy headline for the Globe/Herald.
If there really are so many
If there really are so many drug addicts making so much trouble on that stretch of Broadway that businesses can't open then the city needs to take care of it and crack some heads. Aren't they admitting that the problem is out of control? Or are they making it up? It's one or the other.
The bigger problem
Are prescription pill pushers in Andrew/Broadway stations and the local parks.
I expect to see these dopes calling for the MBTA and parks to get on the 9-5.
Careful!
You almost gave them another excuse as to why they have to shut down the MBTA every night!
Subway
It's easier to deny a legitimate business an earlier opening time than it is to do something about all the meth heads in the area. Our neighborhood is saturated with this sort of behavior. To the elected officeholders: Do something concrete about the drugs, the junkies, the location of too many methadone clinics and the related problems that go with this. Messing with some poor slob trying to run a lawful business isn't the answer.
Jamaica Plain is also at the
Jamaica Plain is also at the beginning of an influx of heroin/methadone zombies. How can it be limited? It seems that a clinic can open anywhere and the neighborhood has no choice but to take it.
Haymarket
Haymarket and Chelsea too. I see so many heroin/methadone junkies now both sitting in the park at Haymarket's bus loop or riding the 111. Its almost a daily occurrence now. Used to be you'd only see them late at night.. now its daytime, during the week.
Could it be... that... boston... has a heroin problem now?
Maybe its time to do something about it.. and sorry more methadone clinics are not the answer (as helpful as it is for some folks).
Heroin problem
Boston and the surrounding regions have had a massive heroin problem for years and yet treatment is still very lacking. Methadone really is not the problem - the problem is heroin and pills.
heroin problems
I think this may be one instance where the city has fallen behind the burbs. Saugus has got a heroin problem that probably puts Boston's to shame -- finding stats on this isn't easy, but places like Stoughton and other predominantly white working class towns have some serious issues regarding drug abuse.
I still don't understand why
I still don't understand why the specific hours an establishment is allowed to operate is something that is subject to approval from the licensing board.
Supply/Demand
"A Linehan rep said the area already has plenty of places at which to get breakfast"
If this were true, then Subway would have no business reason to make the request.
It is most definitely not the
It is most definitely not the government's business to decide whether the market has been saturated or not.
Nothing makes me angrier
Then hearing someone on a licensing board, a councilor, etc say the neighborhood doesn't "need" something. If that's the case (in this example), Subway will open at 7am for a few months, realize they aren't making any money, and go back to a 10am open. Same with EVERY other business out there. "the neighborhood doesn't need any more liquor stores". No? Who says? Adding a liquor store/bar isn't going to make people drink more, it's going to create more competition for people's dollars and will drive business down for the least competitive establishment.
Nothing makes me angrier
Then hearing someone on a licensing board, a councilor, etc say the neighborhood doesn't "need" something. If that's the case (in this example), Subway will open at 7am for a few months, realize they aren't making any money, and go back to a 10am open. Same with EVERY other business out there. "the neighborhood doesn't need any more liquor stores". No? Who says? Adding a liquor store/bar isn't going to make people drink more, it's going to create more competition for people's dollars and will drive business down for the least competitive establishment.
For the record ...
Neither of the two licensing-board members present today - Milton Wright and Suzanne Ianella - said much of anything. It was people from the mayor's office and Bill Linehan's office who brought up the loitering thing and opposed opening the place earlier than 10 a.m.
In fact, the last time this came up - with the McDonald's on Harvard Ave. in Allston - Wright said you can't just sweep people away for being methadone patients if they're not doing anything illegal (which, being a retired judge, he would know), and that the answer is for the methadone clinic to give them some sort of place to occupy their time.
get it right!!!!
fyi... i'm not defending either of the elected's offices, but AdamG... you have it all wrong!!! i was at the hearing this morning and neither reps from the Mayor's office or Councilor Linehan's office made those remarks as you stated.
if anything... it is the people from the neighborhood association that would make those stupid remarks and use it as a legit reason, it's the fact that because it's a Subways and that it attracts "those people" is the reason why the "neighborhood" is against the hours.
i bet if it was chic south end or back bay establishment asking for an 24 hour license to serve food... they would welcome it with open arms!!!!
Hmm ...
I was there, too (shlubby guy in the second row with the laptop sometimes open, sometimes closed).
Both of the reps from the mayor's office and Linehan's office said they supported the Subway IF it opened at 10 a.m., not a second earlier. It was Linehan's designee who said there are a lot of other existing breakfast options and brought up the issue of loitering.
You're right that neither specifically mentioned methadone patients. However, both spoke right after Subway's lawyer explained the whole early-morning-methadone-patients thing and neither contradicted him.
Subway in City Hall Plaza opens at 7 am
according to the chain's online Store Locator. This location is also steps away from a Dunkin Donuts and a Starbucks. It used to be a Quizno's.
Most though not all other Subway stores in greater Boston also open at 7 am on weekdays. (I do not see any that open as early as 6 am.)
If 7 am is fine for Government Center, why isn't it OK for South Boston?
Junkies
I know a thing or two about this problem. Methadone, when used properly, can and does save lives. For recovering addicts with a job that are actually trying to change their lives, the clinic is a lifeline. You don't notice these people hanging around because they look just like anybody and don't even look high, mainly because they aren't. They just stop by to pick up their dose, and head to work or whatever else they have going on. What percentage of the total is this group? I wish I knew. 50% maybe. Then there are all those visible junkies you see around near the clinics. One group has kept migrating up Mass Ave over the years, now mostly around the South Bay McDonalds. Another spot has been Haymarket for many years, although the cops have frightened most of them further underground. So what are they all doing? In a word, "benzos", benzodiazepines such as Klonopin and Xanax. While a person won't really get high from the methadone itself, taking these drugs with the methadone unleashes its opiate power, putting the user in a catatonic state, blacked out as they say. Additionally, if he wakes up he will remember absolutely nothing about it. Most often when you someone falling all over himself and you think he is on heroin, it's far more likely that its methadone & benzos. Because of this fact, a market in benzos develops around almost every methadone clinic. It's very hard to stop but stricter, more frequent urine screening could help. Currently, when a client tests positive for benzos, he's usually given a few chances before actually getting kicked out, probably due to harm reduction thinking that shooting street heroin would be worse. Although true for him, not so much for the clinic's neighborhood.
HOW CAN I GET INVOLVED?
Where are these meetings about open/closing times? Are they public? Am I allowed to swear during public commentary (I might otherwise be eternally banned, because I just can't stand anymore of this bullshit)?
ONline Forum
All these meetings for quality of life issues take place when people are at work.
There should be an online public forum for working residents.
Couple ways to get involved
Most neighborhoods have a community group that meets monthly or thereabouts and talks about upcoming licensing hearings, where you can express your opinion.
You might also want to find out who your neighborhood liaison from the mayor's office is and contact them with any concerns.
Licensing Board hearings are public, but they're held at 10 a.m. on Wednesdays at City Hall (Rm. 801 to be exact). They accept e-mail comments, though. Although the board can and often does disregard recommendations from the community groups, they generally don't vote on proposals that haven't gone before the community.
To add to Adam's comments
Don't get too angry at this Licensing Board -- they've actually done a decent job of brushing aside many of the less sensible objections.
Wednesday is hearings, Thursday is decision time. So Adam's just listed what was said, not what was decided. That'll come later this morning.
If you don't like the whole Licensing Board concept then it would be a good idea to pose that question to the candidates for Mayor and City Council when you get the opportunity. There's been a lot of discussion about licensing reform this cycle, and you could add to it.
And also: elected officials at these meetings are usually speaking what they believe their voting base wants them to say. If you want that to change, then you need to be active, communicate with your officials, get other people involved, and most importantly of all: vote.
guessing it had a lot to do
guessing it had a lot to do with the West Broadway Neighborhood Assoc., the same group that was against Inner City Weightlifting moving into what is basically a deserted section of their territory. They were afraid the black kids would hang around after practice, and we just can't have that in our perfect overpriced utopia with glorious views of a railway and bus yard.
I must have missed the ballot
I must have missed the ballot question about changing the Mayor's Office's attitudes towards extended business hours.
Democracy 101
The attitudes coming from the Mayor's office will change when the Mayor changes.
If you want to vote for later hours, then vote for a candidate who supports later hours.
Why are they allowing meth
Why are they allowing meth patients to dictate when certain business can or cannot be open? The solution isn't to impede business, it should be to do something about the gathering of meth patients in and around Broadway T Stop.
Southie produces the junkies; so Southie must feed them
breakfast with their methadone.
Locals
These junkies ain't all home grown, not by a long shot.
many, many are southie natives
https://www.drugfree.org/join-together/drugs/drug-...
http://books.google.com/books?id=x24SquwK8xgC&pg=P...
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/10/...
http://southend.patch.com/groups/opinion/p/bostons...
Pine Street
How about moving the Pine Street Inn to Hyde Park and then at eight in the morning one third of the residents gravitate to Roslindale for the day and a third to Milton and the rest just mill around for the day. Then repeat 365 days a year. You'll feel real good about yourself by doing it too!
Come on man
Pine Street's been where it is since like the 70's. You knew it was there when you bought your high-end condo or whatever. Why don't you move to Hyde Park instead?
Big business (non profit-send money)
Like man I was here before the 70s man, way before. I've seen Pine Street evolution. Heck it's not on Pine Street no more. Duh! Blow-in.