MassDOT is looking at ways to increase capacity on Rte. 3 south of Boston. WBZ reports one way to pay for it: Use that newfangled "open tolling" system to create an express lane. And while they're at it, why not vary the tolls by time of day, so people who have to be in town in the morning could pay more for the privilege?
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Great
By Anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 11:38am
Seriously, it's a great idea. I saw a study somewhere about "Lexus Lanes" that benefits not just Lexus drivers but those of modest incomes who may be willing to pay to get home quickly to daycare pickup for instance to avoid a late pickup penalty.
Do you know how much day
By Matt_J
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:22pm
Do you know how much daycare costs? There is not much left over luxury traffic lanes.
Have you dealt with late pickup penalties?
By Waquiot
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:06pm
Yes, daycare is expensive, but when traffic is all backed up and it looks like you might not make it in time, the toll might be a bargain. Of course, if this is every day, you might want to rethink your schedule.
To be honest, I cannot remember what the late fine is at our daycare, but it's enough that I would think about taking a taxi from Forest Hills (about an $8 ride) if time was ticking down.
I know a few people that pay
By Lmo
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:36pm
I know a few people that pay $1.00 for each additional minute. It's crazy. If you have more than one child, it can get really expensive.
Why stop there?
By spin o rama
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 11:41am
Lets put tolls on any every major road, setup peak charges for rush hour, maybe no tolls outside of rush hour.
With smart tolling, we could find where the real congestion and volumes of traffic are going and can allocate funds for maintenance based on the demand.
Maybe they can install tolls
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 11:54am
On the proposed bike lane on Comm Ave to help fund its construction.
Same concept, make the people using the new infrastructure pay for it.
Why I'm opposed to it
By BostonDog
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:23pm
Left-side bike lanes would be really cheap (just a paint crew) and would work better. I don't see the track as being worth the cost and I'm a bike commuter 90% of the time on Comm ave.
No, they would not work
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:42pm
Believe me, they were strongly considered, and rejected on safety grounds. Left-side bike lanes still must contend with heavy turning traffic at many intersections, and it is not at all clear how Comm Ave bike lanes would transition from center to side at the BU Bridge and at Packard's Corner.
Also, keep in mind that Comm Ave is being rebuilt, no matter what, no matter what way. The $17 million or so is the cost of rebuilding the entire road, because it's been about 60 years since it was last done. Lifetime refresh, etc. This is not being done for the sake of the bike lane. The bike lane is tagging along to a project that has been 20 years in the making (keeps getting delayed).
The bike lanes are not a significant cost in the overall project. They get a lot of attention, but most of the work and cost goes into the fixing of the motorway.
The bike lane on Comm Ave
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:44pm
Is not going to cost very much, and trying to toll it sounds prohibitively difficult. I also don't think it's practical to toll automobile drivers or truckers for using Comm Ave, even though they cause the most damage and the most wear on the street, requiring the replacement project. Tolls only seem to make sense on limited access roads, not city streets. Perhaps a cordon-charge that applies more generally, but that's a different discussion.
One thing that many of the commenters and Howie-Carr-type screamers fail to realize about Comm Ave is that it is primarily a project to help automobile drivers, even though the mode distribution on the street is largely dominated by public transit and walking (upwards of 2/3rds of the travel on that segment of Comm Ave).
Automobile drivers will be getting 4 cleaned up dedicated through-lanes, a new set of properly designed left-turn lanes, and a whole new left-turn pocket lane at Agganis Way. That's a motorway expansion for the benefit of BU. All of the turns will be made much safer for motorists.
The Green Line is seeing a much needed station consolidation, station expansion for accessibility, signal priority installation, and proper crosswalks installed at both ends of the two stations to be rebuilt (in new locations).
Putting the bike lane on the other side of parked cars is mostly about cleverly designing the curb. It doesn't cost much to do that. The price of the project has remained the same ever since it was put on the TIP some 5 years ago, or so.
Comm Ave is getting rebuilt one way or the other. May as well do it in a smart way so that it is safer for the next 50 years.
Someone who is using the MBTA, riding a bike, or walking is someone who is not contributing to traffic congestion, while also benefiting the city economically. That effect more than pays for itself.
Signal priority? Really?
By anon
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 12:39pm
Signal priority? Really?
Call me skeptical, but I really doubt this will ever be (properly) implemented in eastern Massachusetts.
I think that you are right to be skeptical
By Matthew
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 1:15pm
Having said that, I'm quoting what the engineers said at the public meeting. They claim to be testing signal priority -- right now -- using the 57 bus at the Babcock Street intersection. They claim that they need Green Line tracking to be fully operational before extending it. And they claim to have a working group that is meeting regularly to advance the installation of signal priority.
So this is probably about as close as we've ever gotten to actually getting signal priority installed on the Green Line / key buses.
Now if only we could deal with that stupid D street crossing too.
I've paid for my share several times over
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:43pm
Road use fees and taxes and tolls on vehicles only cover about 50%. The rest comes from taxes that everyone pays regardless of car ownership. (links have been posted repeatedly - just search the archives). Gas tax only pays about 28%.
By your logic, cyclists and pedestrians are owed massive amounts of infrastructure.
You're welcome.
Can you please back this up
By wtf021
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:56pm
Can you please back this up with some references.
google dot com
By tape
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 2:26pm
google dot com
Check her post history
By spin o rama
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 2:28pm
Swirls has taken the time to link these on dozens of posts at UHub, honestly its not that hard to do some research for yourself.
Now that I'm at an acutal computer
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:17pm
I'll post this for the umptybillionth appearance on UHub:
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/share-state-local-ro...
Actually, the map is a new feature.
Drivers pay less than sixty percent of the cost of roadways. Meanwhile, the rest comes from things like income taxes, which we all pay, and property taxes, which owners pay and renters pay indirectly. Cyclists also pay sales taxes on bikes and supplies.
In other words, when non-car owners stop subsidizing car owners, we will talk about cycling-specific charges for infrastructure.
Ok, but
By JP Resident
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:23pm
I'm sure you have benefitted from the use of roads to service you. Road cost sharing is not just relating to your personal travel needs. Others need road access to supply you with your daily heeds such as trucks to bring your commercial goods to your local stores, medications to your hospitals, police to protect your house and home, etc. That is why no honest evaluation would expect that only car commuters should pay for the cost of the roads.
True. But much of the cost
By eddiil
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:42pm
True. But much of the cost of roads--both in construction and externalities--occurs because they are designed to handle peak commuting loads. If we only build roads to handle shared services--basically, commercial and government vehicles--the cost to build and maintain the roads would probably shrink by an order of magnitude.
Those of us who work extra
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:39pm
Those of us who work extra hours / jobs and sacrifice to be able to live in the city are the only ones who should have a say in this matter. Regardless, please explain why you believe cycle tracks are critical to safe city biking when so many experienced riders are opposed to it?
Sure thing, I'm willing to pay
By spin o rama
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:51pm
And keep in mind that all of Comm Ave is being reworked, bike infrastructure is just a small portion of what is being done. We should charge tolls fairly based on that.
So I'm sure you're willing to pay for tolls along the same stretch? Do I hear crickets?
Exactly....whay stop there?
By RichM
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:12pm
We can also charge for every call made to the police or fire department. We can also charge parents for every child they enroll in school. The possibilities are endless!
Well we already pay for that through taxes
By spin o rama
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:14pm
The true cost of driving? Not so much. So lets setup some tolls!
But....
By RichM
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:22pm
Not everybody using those services is a taxpayer.
(I agree with you but just throwing it out there)
The "true cost" will go up
By Matt_J
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:26pm
The "true cost" will go up for everyone, not just those who drive on the road.
The trucking companies that deliver food, gas, oil, utilities, consumer products will most definitely increase their prices to compensate for the tax. That in-turn will be passed onto every consumer.
When you start taxing all the infrastructure, it is not just the individual driver that feels the impact.
Wrong
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:32pm
We already pay those costs. What, do you think we get roads for free, and tolls would somehow increase the costs? Nope. There ain't no such thing as a free ride.
We already pay all those costs of building and operating roads; they are reflected through the cost of goods, property, and especially our taxes.
The point of tolls is to shift the way the costs are assessed, so that the price is paid as closely as possible to where the costs are incurred. That's more economically efficient, and it becomes harder to hide the true costs of driving by distributing it among the general population. And it focuses attention on trying to reduce costs at the source.
You are suggesting that the
By Matt_J
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:46pm
You are suggesting that the MA government will save the funds from tolls for road maintenance. I have not often seen a MA gov official keep their hands off allocated funds.
What happens when the money raised from tolls is not enough to maintain the roads? Do you delay maintenance till there is the money? What if that money never comes, do you shut down the road?
There is a reason why roads are paid for by the public, through taxes. The overall societal benefit of open roads benefits everyone, not just those with enough money to drive on them.
Riders pay fares for buses, why not drivers pay tolls for roads?
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:15pm
Toll revenue can be traded off for tax cuts. Especially EITCs. If Governor Baker wants a progressive tax cut that helps working families, then tolling highways would be an excellent, progressive way to pay for it.
The same thing that happens when the money raised from fares is not enough to maintain the transit system.
The same thing that happens with roads right now, where tolls are effectively $0, and all of the maintenance money comes from property taxes, income taxes, fuel taxes, and fees.
You are right to assume that the money from tolls will not cover the costs of roads in many cases. Most roads cannot cover their own costs, and will require subsidy. But it is good to be absolutely clear about that subsidy, and to recover as much as possible in the fairest way possible.
Please take a moment to reconsider your statement by substituting the word "public transit" for roads, and "ride" for "drive."
There is a reason why public transit is paid for by the public, through taxes. The overall societal benefit of open public transit benefits everyone, not just those with enough money to ride on them.
Matt_J, are you a proponent of fare-free public transit? If not, then how do you square your support for toll-free roads with your opposition to fare-free public transit?
(for the record, I am not a proponent of either).
Public transit has a much strong social and economic justice argument than toll-free roads. How do you answer that?
Public benefit of roads
By Markk02474
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 5:58pm
Care to explain what percentage of goods and construction trade services travel are supplied over public transit? Oh, and much of public transit is served by roads too!
So, roads get far more use than public transit, thus dominating over public transit in the resulting public benefits.
Zero sum though
By eddiil
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:38pm
Prices may go up, but taxes will go down (assume spending is the same). The benefit is that it better aligns the price of using the road with the cost.
You do realize that because
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:29pm
You do realize that because fire, police and ambulance have the use of roads that it benefits you, do you not? How about grocery store deliveries? Do you not buy groceries? Stop being obtuse.
I had no idea they used roads chief
By spin o rama
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 2:37pm
Of course I benefit from that, hence why I'm glad that my taxes help fund it. Its too bad that not enough money is spent on our roads and snow removal, think about all the police, fire and ambulances that were blocked by poorly cleared roads jammed with vehicular traffic.
I don't get my groceries delivered, usually I stop by on my bike after work. But on many occasions this winter, I've walked there and while the roads were cleared for easy flow of traffic, the sidewalks were covered and not shoveled.
Snow removal if you drive or bike(barely), fend for yourself if you walk but we'll still take your tax money.
Again...but
By RichM
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:43pm
The Mass DMV collected over $600 million in fee's last year
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/03/07/i-team-mass-...
so
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:19pm
Not all that has to do with driving - ID cards, etc.
It also isn't nearly enough: http://taxfoundation.org/blog/share-state-local-ro...
Or we could just pay per mile
By Matt_J
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:19pm
Or we could just pay per mile.
\\not actually suggesting this
Why not
By SwirlyGrrl
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:12pm
Annual inspection means annual accounting for mileage.
I'd be happy to do it this way - pay for what I use, with a portion earmarked for my own community. Makes a lot more sense than excise tax.
I'd like to pay for my insurance the same way.
I think surge pricing for
By Bob Murphy
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 11:48am
I think surge pricing for highways is a good idea, but would prefer this be part of a master plan to address transportation (a pipe dream, I know). Surge pricing makes more sense if we have a public transit system that functions. Driving this winter was more of a necessity than a privilege for many.
Lets Beta Test on 90 First
By Ross
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 11:51am
The Allston/Brighton Tolls coming into the city are a nightmare because they open traffic from 3 lanes to 8 tolls and then try to condense it again. Even without the open tolling system they could just shutdown 4 tolls (Make them all EZ Pass) and minimize the merging. The fact that DOT hasn't noticed this bottle neck yet amazes me.
Private financing to construct
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:01pm
and operate toll roads sounds like a good idea at first glance. However, it is actually a very slippery slope.
Consider the mess the Indiana Toll Road has become since the state leased it to a private company. Or Virginia's privately operated HOT lanes, which are apparently
losing bags of moneyfalling far short of the initial profit projections for their operator.At the risk of sounding like a Libertarian, I believe tolls on controlled-access highways are a very reasonable idea, especially given the advent of all electronic tolling. However, the highways are still public facilites for the use of the public and, therefore, should be controlled by the government and not private business.
Indiana Toll Road has been a debacle, BUT...
By issacg
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:15pm
that is, in my opinion, in large part because it was used to "manage" existing infrastructure (and provide a huge one-time payout to the states) rather than to build new infrastructure. Same thing with the Chicago parking meters.
Those were both private-public partnership projects. It is not clear to me from the article, however, whether the Rt. 3 thing is a PPP idea or just that the state would do the construction and use dynamic tolling as a way to pay for it. I am happy to try either one in for this project.
With respect to PPPs though, IMO, these should only be used to build new infrastructure, not to manage existing infrastructure (not least because the politicians use the short-term windfall to enable all of their bad habits). The private company should get a concession to collect tolls for X years, and then the property reverts to the state (with adequate protections in place to ensure that the state does not inherit something that is falling apart, among other things). I think that the Port of Miami tunnel project, which was done in this way, will prove to be a better model than the shenanigans in the Midwest.
This is a huge topic, and unfortunately, I don't have time just now to fully expound, but I'm looking forward to catching up tonight (particularly with roadman's and matthew's comments - two UHubbers with demonstrated credibility in this area)
Adding a lane will encourages
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:00pm
Adding a lane will encourages more people to drive as opposed to taking public transportation. Doesn't make ANY sense. Let's not turn metro Boston into any more of a sprawling mass of highways than it already is.
Add a lane, and let HOV and bus use it for free
By Ari O
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 5:56pm
If the bus (generally the P&B along Route 3) were 20-30 minutes faster to Boston than driving, you better believe a lot of people would ride the bus. Or make it a 3+ carpool and you'll probably have slug lines form. While you're at it, build similar HOV lanes north of the city (there are something like 90 buses on 93 South every rush hour, even without any HOV priority). If there's excess capacity, charge for it, but make sure the charge is high enough to allow for free-flowing traffic. And if the lanes turn a profit, use that money to subsidize parallel transit services.
Make it a zero-sum game, but incentivize people, by time and money, to use transportation options which create less congestion, not more.
It takes a lot of specific
By anon
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 12:41pm
It takes a lot of specific conditions to make slug lines work, not just an HOV 3+ lane.
Sounds like a bad idea
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:01pm
I'll admit that the transportation and economics geek in me is intrigued by the idea of having properly tolled high-speed lanes with dynamic pricing here in Massachusetts. I've seen it in other states. The overall concept is not terrible, if you forget about all the other issues, such as environment.
However, I suspect that financially it's not going to work in this case, and it will wind up as a drag on the Commonwealth's budget. Actually, with our luck, the debt will somehow end up on the MBTA.
Here's what I think may be the problems:
The only way to even begin to fix these issues is to toll the Southeast Expressway first, using dynamic prices to manage demand. And if you think the screaming will be loud over potential tolls on Rt 3 express lanes, well, the wailing will be absolutely deafening over any plan to toll the Southeast Expressway.
Whatever happened to that whole idea of "fix-it-first" and "reform before revenue"? That applies to highways: they are also in a huge deferred maintenance hole.
I wish people would stop
By tofu
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 2:12pm
I wish people would stop calling 93 an "Expressway". There's nothing express about it at any reasonable hour.
heck, these days there's
By tape
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 2:29pm
heck, these days there's nothing express about it almost any hour.
No traffic lights
By Waquiot
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:05pm
Hence an expressway- nonstop.
In other parts of America, they use the phrase "freeway." However, if this tolling keeps up, it might not be free either.
I-93 is a freeway
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:48pm
because it is a divided highway with full control of access (i.e. no at-grade intersections). An expressway is a divided highway with partial control of access (i.e. mixture of divided and at-grade intersections), such as US 1 through Saugus. (defintions are from the 2009 MUTCD)
The terms "freeway" and "expressway" refer only to the access control for a given highway, and have nothing to do with how freely traffic may actually move on said highway at any given time, nor whether or not the highway is tolled.
The continued use of "Southeast Expressway" is just another example of Boston traffic reporters being stuck in 1972. Although it's interesting that those same reporters never refer to the highway between the Tobin Bridge and Route 60 in Revere as the "Northeast Expressway."
Enough of your federal talk
By Waquiot
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:54pm
Up this way, we call 'em expressways.
Just trying to educate some folks
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 5:02pm
here who may not realize that, yes Virginia, there are actually establised definitions for terms like freeway and expressway.
However, if you want to continue to call them expressways, then be my guest.
There are only established
By anon
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 12:51pm
There are only established definitions if you're a highway engineer speaking in a professional context.
For everyone else, the Long Island Expressway is still an expressway.
Congestion pricing
By BikerGeek
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:03pm
is a regressive form of taxation.
People who are at the top of the wage scale can structure their hours to avoid it, can afford to live near mass transit, or can work from home. People on the bottom of the totem pole, whose boss says "Be here on the dot of 9:00 or you're fired," are stuck.
As if on cue
By Matthew
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:07pm
^ This is exactly the kind of wrong-headed attitude that I meant.
Congestion pricing is VERY progressive, not regressive. What's regressive is forcing a bus full of passengers to get stuck in traffic. Congestion pricing can both help pay the cost of running the bus (making it cheap and easy for low-income workers to use it) and can keep the bus out of traffic jams (making it reliable).
If your boss says that, do you really think it's an excuse to say "well, I was stuck in traffic, but at least everybody else was stuck in the same exact traffic."
Sounds more like spite, to me.
Maybe I'd feel better about
By anon
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 12:54pm
Maybe I'd feel better about this plan if we had a decent commuter bus network on the South Shore.
Something like the bus service from northern NJ into NYC, or from suburbs in all directions into Seattle, and even from some suburbs to big employment destinations in other suburbs.
Just credit them on income taxes
By eddiil
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:48pm
There's already precedent for tax breaks based on EZ Pass data. Just add a tax credit with phaseout that reimburses low income drivers.
Then you waste lots of tax
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 3:39pm
Then you waste lots of tax money administering the whole scheme to the point it is sometimes not worth collecting the tax in the first place.
If we didn't already have the
By eddiil
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:35pm
If we didn't already have the system set up to do this with Mass Pike tolls, I'd be skeptical too. But my hope would be that you could piggyback onto the existing infrastructure.
That said, I generally think that using the income tax code to try to achieve policy goals is less than ideal. I'd love to see someone do the math, but I wonder what would happen if you just sliced the top 10% off the toll revenue and refunded in the form of a larger EITC-type thing...
You can also set up a
By Charlie
Mon, 03/30/2015 - 1:01pm
You can also set up a discount program based on income. It doesn't make sense to make something free just because everyone can't afford it. That's why we have ways to reduce the cost for people with lower incomes.
More Lanes!
By anon
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:04pm
It's always the "answer" to traffic but just invites more cars. In 10yrs time traffic would be just as bad with the extra lane as it is today. Adding that lane would make traffic worse for however long it would take to finish constructing it and it never seems like they're in a big rush to finish road construction around here. They should focus their money & efforts on public transit that's actually pleasant & efficient to use.
Not so hot on this idea
By Matt_J
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:12pm
During rush hour on 93 the HOV lane is packed and slow. Providing a "fast lane" on RT 3 seems a bit Orwellian in practice, even if there is more capacity.
It would seem a better idea to increase the quality and access to public transit rather than increase the number of lanes from Derby Street to 93.
Also for those who take RT 3 to get to the Red Line at Braintree or Quincy Adams an additional tax to get to and from work is just mean.
How would tolling increase capacity?
By Will LaTulippe
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:13pm
Unless that's a typo, in which case, my answer to decreasing capacity on Route 3 is "make Cape Cod somehow suck." Arsenic in the ocean water, maybe?
As I understand the plan
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:21pm
the idea is to widen the southern end of Route 3 to three lanes in each direction (a project that has been on the radar for a long time, even with the construction of the Old Colony lines).
Construction would be financed by a private company, which would foot the capital for the work based on the expected future toll revenue they will receive for operating the road once it is widened.
This is similar to the funding strategy that was used for Virginia's HOT lanes on the Capital Beltway (open) and I-95 (pending).
Extend 93
By cybah
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 12:23pm
I'm just throwing this out there.. but why don't the petition the Fed to extend I-93 to include Route 3 all the way to the bridge?
This way it would free up federal money to expand Route 3 (and make it built to more interstate standards)
Just a random thought.
Good thought, but there are some issues
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:20pm
First, to qualify for an Interstate designation, especially extension of a principal (i.e. not a loop or spur route) Interstate, the roadway in question has to be in substantial conformance with current Interstate design standards. Most of Route 3 south of Derby Street does not meet those standards.
Second, per established conventions for numbering Interstate highways, a principal Interstate route should connect to another Interstate route at its beginning and end points. Although there are some exceptions to this rule (such as I-90 ending at Route 1A in East Boston), both AASHTO and FHWA, which normally oversee the assignment of Interstate numbers (not counting Interstate 99 in Pennsylvania, which was created by an Act of Congress), have been very reluctant to grant exceptions to the current numbering conventions.
Lastly, there has been a project under discussion since the 1990s to widen Route 24 between Fall River and Raynham. If and when this project (which is still being pursued despite the work on South Coast Rail) is completed, MassDOT's plan is to disconnect I-93 from I-95 in Canton and re-route it via current Route 24 down to I-195 in Fall River. What the broken link between I-95 and Route 24 will be numbered is anybody's guess at this point, but that's another story.
While other states, such as New York, currently have roads designated as "Future Interstate XX", that designation has been established for specific corridors where providing an Interstate route is deemed to improve connectivity within the Interstate system. With respect, I'm not convinced that extending the I-93 designation down to Cape Cod will provide enough improved Interstate connectivity to justify the re-designation.
None taken!
By cybah
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 1:35pm
None taken!
I remember reading or thinking that a long time ago.... extending 93 to the Sagamore. Then you could drive from the White Mountains to Cape Cod on one expressway (as I-93).
Changing the designation would free up money for the upgrades required from Derby south plus widening, which was my main point vs adding tolls.
With respect to the "TO 95" expressway (Canton stretch between 93 and 95), I would guess it would become I-193, since no spurs of 93 exist in MA. And if my memory serves me correctly about interstate numbering, a 1, an odd number, would be a spur, not a loop (i.e. 293 in Manchester NH). It would have to be X93, and not X95 since I-195, and I-395 exist already in MA.
Actually, following the numbering conventions,
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 4:55pm
the Canton to Braintree section would be an X95, because spurs are supposed to branch off the main system from south to north. The logical choice would be I-595, as it's both an odd number (spur route), is not currently assigned to any route in Massachusetts, and has not been previously proposed to be assigned to any route in Massachusetts.
One thing's for sure, if this did happen, the signing at the Canton split will become very interesting, regardless of which route number is chosen for the "gap" section.
Hmmm
By cybah
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 5:06pm
But isn't "to 95" section east/west?
Yes, the X95 would be
By roadman
Thu, 03/26/2015 - 5:32pm
signed east-west. But I-95, or "the parent" in numbered route speak, is a north-south route. So the spur, or "child", would come off of I-95, not I-93. It's actually more logical from a driver's perspective as well, as "take a spur of I-95 off of I-95 to get to I-93" doesn't have the "huh?" factor that "take a spur of I-93 off of I-95 to get to I-93" does.
Now I realize at this point some of you out there are saying "Now you're just talking semantics", others out there are just rolling their eyes, while some of you may be saying "Hey roadman, just go back to complaining about T alerts." For those of you in any of these categories, I suggest you read the "Numbering System" section of this item
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_Sy...
and you'll see there is actually a logic to all of this.
"'take a spur of I-95 off of
By anon
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 1:00pm
"'take a spur of I-95 off of I-95 to get to I-93' doesn't have the 'huh?' factor that 'take a spur of I-93 off of I-95 to get to I-93' does."
Why do you only consider the people going from I-95 to I-93, and not people heading in the other direction (who could be the same people on their return trip)?
If you're heading towards
By roadman
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 1:27pm
I-95, taking a X95 route off of I-93 is more logical than an X93 route would be.
I read last night
By cybah
Fri, 03/27/2015 - 1:31pm
and yes you are correct about that. Doesn't make a lot of sense, since most people are going from 93 South to 95.. and not the other way around.
But yes, spurs always start west and south parent.. so it would be 95 not 93.
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