Moving more seventh graders from school buses to the T has general worked very well, but Assistant Superintendent Kim Rice told the School Committee that she's heard from a number of girls that they're not feeling all that safe on the T, in particular because of issues such as catcalling.
Rice said she and other officials plan to spend time figuring out what to do about that.
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Comments
How about keeping them
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 7:32pm
In their neighborhood and avoiding the T altogether.
What's your plan for paying for all the new middle schools?
By Jeff F
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:12pm
n/t
So your solution to dealing
By 2
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:31pm
So your solution to dealing with this issue is by keeping these girls locked away at home? How would you address men who leer and jeer at girls in their own neighborhoods? Or boys who think it's okay to touch a girl without her consent and laugh at her when she gets upset?
In what world is that an actual real life answer to what is, frankly, a societal problem?
Because no girl ever got harassed in her neighborhood
By Sally
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:01am
Am I right? It's only when you venture into the T that things get crazy.
Who is cat-calling middle-school girls?
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 7:57pm
I almost never hear cat-calls of any kind, directed at any age of person.
Lucky you. I've been dealing
By 2
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:18pm
Lucky you. I've been dealing with cat-calls since I was in middle school and I'm now in my mid-20s.
Oh. In that case, must be they're not happening.
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:20pm
.
Query:
By MostlyHarmless
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:58pm
Are you male? If so, your experience on this matter doesn't count for much.
I do hope you're being
By Zabdiel Boylston
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:25pm
I do hope you're being sarcastic. But allow me to use this space to clarify that cat-calling is not just whistling or making faces at girls or women, it's also asking them to smile, telling them how pretty they look, asking where they're headed, etc. It's uncomfortable for females of all ages, but I can't imagine how these younger girls feel. It's hard to put up with everyday, and I know—I'm in my early 20s and I went to school and now work downtown. It's not easy.
Telling girls they look pretty
By Will LaTulippe
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 11:00pm
Harassment isn't cool, and it's clear which side is the correct side in this whole discussion.
But we all exist because some guy told a girl she was pretty, right? There's a right way to do it, no? I stick with "you have a cute haircut" or "you have a pretty dress" because those things are voluntary.
Sure if you think a guy that
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 2:10am
Sure if you think a guy that is 28 oggling and fondling a 12 to 16 yr old is ok? We are not talking peer to peer harassment so much as adult strangers on a train. It is predatory behavior.
.
By tape
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 8:29am
," said a man.
Being a jerk is also voulntary
By Lecil
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:04am
You might try not being one.
Unless the comment was solicited, there is a high likelihood that it is unwelcome. Let me help you here; coming from a stranger "How do you like my skirt" or "How do you like my haircut" would be invitations for your opinion. "Where is the nearest bus stop" isn't.
And let's head this one off at the pass. "But she's dressed like that! She must want compliments!" Sure, and maybe she wants you to comment on other parts of her anatomy, maybe she wants you to put your arm around her, maybe she wants to have sex with you. After all, she's asking for it, right?
Probably best not to step on that slippery slope in the first place. Happen to make eye-contact with her (or any other human, for that matter) on the street? A slight tip of the head and maybe a neutral hello should suffice.
Right way, and...
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:06am
There's also an appropriate time and place. A stranger on the T, not so much. A "girl", not so much -- "girl" means non-adult female human being, and these are definitely not adults and should not be subjected to any kind of approach, no matter how civil, no matter how phrased as a "compliment" (which is all too often followed by "what's wrong with you? ARE YOU A DYKE?" if it's not welcomed).
Or my absolute favorite; do
By Heather
Fri, 09/11/2015 - 4:30pm
Or my absolute favorite; do you have a boyfriend.
Started at 11yo
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:34am
Catcalling started at 11yo for my sister and me.
You get them more often when
By Heather
Fri, 09/11/2015 - 4:29pm
You get them more often when you're young, not just because you're cuter, but because you aren't as comfortable yet telling people to f--- off.
Why
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:00pm
Do I think it is mostly fellow teens perpetrating these catcalls?
(Not all, most.)
Because
By MostlyHarmless
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:26pm
You like being wrong?
Why? Probably because you are not familiar with the reality
By peter
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:59pm
of catcalling in the real world. Since you're starting from zero knowledge, at the bare minimum, you could go watch the daily show segment on catcalling (by Jessica Williams) for a very basic introduction.
By Elmer
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:17pm
Not the least bit adorable ,
By anonism
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:16pm
Not the least bit adorable , Elmer. Perfectly poor taste
Removed — I Never Wish To Offend Anyone
By Elmer
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:27pm
[sup] ( it was a picture of a cat using a telephone )[/sup]
Long time coming
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:12pm
Going back to early 90's and taking the train as a young woman, it was always bad. Referring to it as a catcall is being gentle, its more like aggressive sexual harassment. I used to have grown men making comments about my body and trying to pick me up when it was pretty clear I was underage (talking 14, 15 years old). When you rebuff or ignore them, there are guys that get mad and insult and threaten. Keeping them in school in their neighborhoods isn't the solution because growing up in the city, at some point, a young woman will probably take the train regardless of what the reason may be. If she is taking the train to school, after school job, or grandmothers house, does not matter. Sorry that these extra young girls had to experience it, but hopefully now the issue as a whole can be dealt with. It can get downright scary.
As Atwood put it
By Cantabrigian
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:04pm
Q. "Why do men feel threatened by women?"
A. "They're afraid women will laugh at them."
Q. "Why do women feel threatened by men?"
A. "They're afraid of being killed."
I'm a man
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 8:54am
and never felt threatened by women. As a boy, I did not feel threatened by girls. And it's bizarre a majority of women and girls feel threatened by men or boys because they think they might murder them.
Maybe we should have separate trains for males and females like they have in Japan (if they still have them)? I use the MBTA regularly, sometimes including times when there are lots of middle and HS students. My observations are girls generally travel in packs, and are A LOT more loud and rowdy compared to boys...and if it's a group of boys and girls, watch out...lots of drama...time to get out the headphones or earbuds.
Have you talked to any girls or women?
By adamg
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 8:57am
They might be able to explain things to you.
http://thinkprogress.org
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 11:29am
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/10/09/3578215...
http://www.komonews.com/news/crime/Police-Woman-at...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/stree...
yeah, how bizarre, that we might be scared.
Catcalling is a problem
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:18pm
Sex offenders roaming the subway preying on young girls and boys is a recipe for disaster
Not sure what you are saying here
By SwirlyGrrl
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:29pm
Harassment is a problem, yes, but the vast majority of sexual predators aren't random people on the subway - they are family members or friends of the family.
WRONG. When it comes to this
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 7:37am
WRONG. When it comes to this topic, STOP minimizing others' experiences as young girls.
actually she's right.
By cinnamngrl
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:16am
and
This doesn't change the fact that stranger assault is terrifying and unacceptable. I have no intention of minimizing anyone's experience.
True, but irrelevant
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:09am
This isn't about "sexual predators", Swirly, it's about harassment that's somewhere on the sexual-violence slippery slope. Let's not derail what seems to be a useful discussion.
Stranger assault is rare
By Heather
Fri, 09/11/2015 - 4:34pm
Stranger assault is rare overall, but when it happens, it's more likely to happen in a confined space, like the T.
This is not only a problem for young girls, but for women of any age and I think, in general, the T takes such complaints seriously and fellow passengers also take it seriously, that is why so many T gropers get their picture taken and turned in to the police or MBTA.
When it comes to younger girls, it's important that they be aware of the problem and recourse if it should happen to them, so they know they have other choices than just ignoring it, which RARELY works.
Pretty damn sad that young
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 8:25pm
Pretty damn sad that young girls are harassed while trying to get to and from school. One would hope adults on the bus would intervene on their behalf.
As a guy, my interpretation
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 11:43am
As a guy, my interpretation of what kind of "catcalling" is happening is that much of it isn't very loud and very public... so other adults nearby likely don't know that it's happening.
what to do
By Malcolm Tucker
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:25pm
If these girls need some sort of Imperator Furiosa to ensure that they get safely from point A to point B without a bunch of disgusting, leering men ruining their day, I'm sure we could find some volunteers. Prosthetic arm optional.
And, I mean, if we replaced all MBTA vehicles with Furiosa's war rig, that would be awesome, too.
Seconded.
By erik g
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:11pm
If they promise to hire an elite cadre of vigilante women to patrol the MBTA, dispensing swift and brutal justice to misogynist shitheels, Boston has my permission to double the residential tax rate starting tomorrow.
Also, this is only vaguely related, but I wanted to share with you my favorite Amazon product review ever.
great
By Malcolm Tucker
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:43pm
"I MAY CONSUME THIS CAKE AND DEPOSIT IT INTO THE SANDS OF THIS WASTELAND, YET WITNESS IT I DID AND GLORIOUS IT WAS. THUS, SHALL IT GO ON TO BE EATEN BY HEROES IN VALHALLA, SHINY AND CHROME!"
How about Transit Police officers actually IN the subway . . .
By thetrainmon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:40pm
As opposed to driving around town, waiting for that all-important call? You know, like all the posters in the subway warn you about not committing crime since they're "there"--both uniformed and not?
This past Saturday, after getting off an Orange Line, a woman, clearly high, fell into the tracks after the train left and was pulled out just as quickly by her boyfriend and another passenger. No cell phone videos, no big media story, just your run-of-the-mill kind of incident that didn't even hold up service since the next train was about eight minutes away.
Since the platform level customer service booth was at the usual level of staffing (i.e. not) , several of us reported the incident to the Customer Service Agent upstairs, who, in turn, reported it to the one, one, on-duty police officer for the third-busiest train station in the City. Officer Couldn't-Care-Less sauntered off in the direction the woman and her boyfriend were heading and wound up overseeing another man who was laying against a pillar outside, bleeding profusely from his head. I'm sure the "what's the problem heah?" was code for, "Let me get an ambulance right away!"
Don't get me wrong--I realize Transit Police have a rather thankless job to do--I just think a more visible presence and proactive approach (not to mention empathy for hardworking people who rely on the MBTA every day) would help deter crime in the subways, buses, etc. Since there seems to be a correlation between fare gate crashers and people with warrants, I should think that crime would be drastically reduced around town by just standing by a set of fare gates for an hour, catching folks in the act. I do realize that's asking a lot since it's the same principle by which officers claim it's "so hard" to catch people texting-while-driving even though I count over a dozen people every time I bike to/from work.
You mean the Transit Police
By Saul
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:12pm
You mean the Transit Police should actually ride the buses and trains instead of playing with their Homeland Security-funded toys?
[img]http://s21.postimg.org/yhhz6k0av/265434_1015029687...
That's nonsense talk.
Radical Idea Here...
By Div2Supt
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 9:48pm
This may sound rather off the wall, but stay with me:
Suppose by means of a special act of the legislature a dedicated transit police force for the MBTA were created. These special officers would be given jurisdiction over the subway and bus lines and help supplement any existing municipal police departments in the areas served by the T.
But here's where it gets real innovative...
A certain number of officers would be detailed, given the size of the area to be patrolled and available manpower, to expressly patrol the bus routes. Ideally, the tour of duty for the officer would overlap with the run of a bus operator; that way several trips and routes could be covered by one person. Rotate the officers among as many bus operator runs as possible to maximize the number of trips and routes patrolled.
If there are teenage boys being assholes, then the cop can tell them to chill out with that bullshit. If there are men who never learned what the words "uncouth" and "pedophile" mean, they can get a ride to the police station to pick up their free dictionary.
So
By MostlyHarmless
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:01pm
What you're saying is that you'd like to start arresting people for speaking words in public. I'm hardly in favor of such behavior, but this is no answer at all.
Oh give me a fucking break.
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:10pm
Oh give me a fucking break. Citing men and boys for sexually harassing girls is not "arresting people for speaking words in public." Next time someone 3 times your size tells you to suck their dick in front of a bus full of onlookers tell me just how safe you feel.
Sigh
By MostlyHarmless
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 11:21pm
I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying that criminalizing it is a terrible idea and one incompatible with the modern interpretation of the 1st Amendment.
You've got some catching up to do
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:14am
The 1st Amendment has never been a guarantor of unrestricted free speech. Never.
I do hope you're not one of those instant Free Speech Warriors who springs to life as soon as anyone suggests curbing speech that is harassing, violent, threatening, racist, or antisocial in some other way (OR calling the free-speakers to account for the consequences of their speech), but who is conspicuously silent when the speech of those who aren't big bad bullies is stifled.
Because policies like
By roadman
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 4:19pm
giving tickets for such behavior and saying - "well, he's only a juvenile, so we'll give him a break" have worked so well - not!
And the 1st Amendement is not absolute. Deliberately harassing a person is no different than yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Speaking words
By SwirlyGrrl
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:31pm
FIRE is a word. Try yelling it in the subway. Then try telling a judge how it's just speaking words.
Sexual harassment is an implied threat. Get that through your head, please.
By that standard
By MostlyHarmless
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 11:21pm
Abortion clinic protesters would also be subject to arrest for "implied threats". Note that they are not.
Again, you've got some catching up to do
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:17am
That all depends on what they say.
You're very much out of touch on this issue, aren't you? Are you aware that you're in a city where an "abortion clinic protester" murdered two people?
What?
By MostlyHarmless
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:41am
I'm pretty grounded in this issue, thanks. I'm also in favor of arresting people for murder, so I'm not really sure what your point is.
No problem, then.
By Somebody Else.
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 10:22am
We should all expect criminal behavior, whether murder or harassment, to be met with response from law enforcement.
You're the one with the bad analogy
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 10:46am
Moving the goalposts from speech to murder, are we? Sorry, it's your bad analogy, you'll have to defend it yourself. Don't ask me to do your homework.
Threatening speech isn't protected. Do you dispute this? No? Then we're all set.
Boston Latin Academy
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:13pm
Having gone to Public School (Latin Academy when it was in Fenway) on the train at 12 yrs old i can tell you i and all my girlfriends at various times were cat called, leered at, harassed, groped - yes breasts and butt by men of all ages even some old geezer perverts. It was terrifying at 12,13,14 but by jr and dr year most of us learned how to either fend it off, defend ourselves or develop a "train stance " where you used your school bag , the door as a shield against the unwanted attention. Not exaggerating at all here and any men who doubt it ask the women you know what their experience has been. That is such a tender age for girls. Back then it was so uncomfortable and scary and you didn't know what to do. If i ever see that happening to girls now the perp will be lucky if he can spell the word balls nevermind recognize his own set after i get through pulverizing him.
Young girls need to be taught evasive moves and know that not only it is ok to tell someone loudly to "back off!" "stop touching me" "I'm calling the police" very loudly but that it is expected of them to do so. My parents had no clue. So yes the schools should address this problem immediately. I graduated in '87. Riding the t was fun despite these incidents. To all the dirty bastards doing this kind of stuff to girls (and boys i am sure) watch out!!
I like your idea
By Sally
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:08am
of some assertiveness training! When I think sometimes of what young women have to put up with...That said, of the countless gross, obnoxious, threatening, or truly scary incidents like this I remember, few of them happened in the T. In school, after school, on the bus, on the sidewalk. I mean...the T is no less safe than anywhere else, is it? Unless anyone is suggesting that girls be shuttled everywhere? Again--I like the idea of empowering young women to look out for themselves and at the same time doing what we can to encourage young men not to act like creeps.
Perhaps a phone app
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:20am
The ACLU has something specifically to deal with misbehaving police; something similar that one-click films and then one-click mails the film to the cops.
yes to assertiveness
By Malcolm Tucker
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 10:11am
Girls should be encouraged, if anyone makes them feel uncomfortable or threatened, to unleash hell. We've been taught for too long that we should just take it - because it's a "compliment" or what the fuck ever - and it's just not true. A creep hitting on a pre-adolescent girl does not deserve a polite "no thanks" or the silent treatment.
This strikes me as a millenia
By anon
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 10:18pm
This strikes me as a millenia-old problem, or has something changed to make the situation worse?
It is no longer considered
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:34am
It is no longer considered acceptable behavior...the whole "boys will be boys" defense no longer flies.
In my experience (BLA '87 above) on the T it was adult - as in over 20 more like 30-60 year old- men.
Elite Transit Police undercover unit disbanded in 2001
By O-FISH-L
Wed, 09/09/2015 - 11:07pm
The Transit Police once had a very effective, elite undercover unit whose eleven members made half of the arrests on a force of 200+. Posing as vagrants, business people and everyday T riders, they did a terrific job arresting the disorderly, the gropers, the fare evaders, and general impact players. This is the best link I could find.
Of course "profiling" (the school system is 88% non-white) and "civil rights" violations were soon alleged and the unit was forced to disband. That was 2001 when cops were still somewhat respected. In today's anti-police environment, I wouldn't expect a police solution any time soon. That train has left the station, pun intended.
This is a very specific
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 2:03am
This is a very specific problem that in my experience would be best dealt with through a school wide defense class where boys and girls are taught that a. There are people who prey on their naïveté
B. they look normal (ie perverts come in all shapes and sizes may look like your grampa or the wall st. Suit)
C. Action tactics - show and practice behavior to stop the event from continuing - get of the train, yell for the person to stop etc.
And evasive moves such as blocking your body with your bag / coat etc.
I am a girl so i cant speak for boys experience on the T - boys are probably harassed as well.
Police may act as a deterrent but they cant possibly see and be everywhere to prevent it.
Agreed
By ElizaLeila
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 8:13am
This is where the schools talk with the BPD and teach the young women the RAD class. It's all about defense and escape and the maneuvers you describe above. I highly recommend it.
Is anyone here in the school system? I probably wouldn't be listened to as I don't have children, so someone with a stake in the game so to speak) would probably be better at passing the suggestion along.
Could body cameras allow them to return?
By makeshift_vicinity
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 11:42am
It sounds like if such a unit were actually above profiling and civil rights abuses, they would be an asset to the system. Body cameras could exonerate them from such claims and prove that they were doing the right thing. I wonder if they could be hidden on plain-clothes officers, and allow the undercover unit to return?
Smart policing.
By CopleyScott17
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 6:39am
As someone who spends way too much time commuting on the B Line and the 57 bus, I've seen tons of rude, threatening, loud, inconsiderate, and antisocial behavior perpetrated by school kids, directed at each other and other riders. This includes catcalling, loud music with no headphones, basketball playing (yes, really), racial and homophobic slurs, and more. I'm frequently reminded of the Bernie Goetz era.
It's pretty easy to figure out where and when this behavior is most likely to occur -- right before and right after school, on routes heavily traveled by upper-middle and high-school kids. Why can't police beef up their presence focusing on those times and places? Both uniformed and undercover?
Ugh...
By Sally
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 9:10am
I used to be a regular on the 57 and the 66 and yeah...a lot of depressing behavior from high schoolers. The best moment ever was when some kids were being especially rowdy and using really foul language and the bus driver pulled over and gave them a piece of her mind, told them they'd better shape up or she'd kick them off. She was a big, middle-aged black woman with a lot of authority and confidence and she just shut it down--ending with "it's like y'all weren't RAISED RIGHT." It was an awesome and rare sight, especially since they actually stfu.
How about teaching/raising
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 10:01am
How about teaching/raising boys to respect females and maybe just maybe have the school officials stop blaming females for being "distractions."
Here is a novel idea - maybe have the school officials actually punish the boys who can't keep their hands or their words to themselves.
Jesus I am so sick of this shit.
Agreed, and...
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:04pm
Agreed, and a step in the right direction might be to refer to women and girls as such, not as "females", which strikes me as a somewhat dehumanizing term. You don't see boys and men so commonly referred to as "males".
I am a female and wanted to
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:22pm
I am a female and wanted to use an all encompassing term. I do use "males" as well rather than boys/men.
This is a (mostly) great
By anon
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 11:24am
This is a (mostly) great discussion. What I'm looking for are rules and road maps for engaging perpetrators of cat calling and harassment. Civilian witnesses need to be trained to use their station to support victims on the spot in a way that honors the agency of the victim, safety and serves as an effective deterrent of the perpetrator on the spot and in the future.
So what works? Calling the cops? Putting yourself between the perpetrator and victim? Being loud? Verbally aggressive? Staring them down? Recording? All of the above?
Reach out to the victim
By lbb
Thu, 09/10/2015 - 1:09pm
In my limited experience, at least with verbal harassment, it's very helpful when the first action is to express concern to the victim of the harassment. "Are you ok? Do you need help?" This lets the harasser know that other people are witnessing the behavior and are willing to intervene, without confronting them. It gives the harasser one last opportunity to STFU, and (again in my limited experience) often they take that opportunity. Finally, it makes it easier for others to act. Once the first person says something, others are more likely to speak up too.
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