A distressed citizen complains about the new ZipCar-only parking spaces on Bunker Hill Street in Charlestown:
Can you tell us who we call at City Hall to buy a spot in front of our house. And how much? We are taxpayers/property owners.
The complaint echoes those from North End residents about the new city car-share program.
The Herald talks to Mayor Walsh, who says the program will actually free up parking spaces by increasing the number of residents who give up cars altogether now that there's a nearby car-share car.
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Comments
Assholes
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 1:27pm
There is no snow forecasted.
So short-sighted. I don't have the figures, but I'd guess
By MC Slim JB
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 1:37pm
that one ZipCar allows ten or twenty people to go without owning private cars. Walsh is right: ZipCars make it easier for you to find a residential street parking space, not harder, dumbasses.
Obviously not...
By Roman
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 1:53pm
People's psychology being what it is, you're going to need to do a lot of convincing that going from a private car to a shared car isn't a step down for people who already own a private car. You'll have that much harder of a time doing it because a shared car is, in fact, a step down from a private car in terms of worst-case availability and even cost.
Say you just found a job out in the suburbs. Nice reverse commute, but no public transit, no one to carpool with, and semi-irregular hours.
Private car? No problem.
Shared car? Either you can't make it in because someone got it before you, or the 19 other people who use it left it in a less than perfect condition, and assuming those are nonissues for a well-run service, you're either paying for your whole workday's worth of time on the car, or you're not guaranteed to have a ride back home at the end of the day.
Now people being semi-rational creatures, will fixate on that worst-case scenario and be loathe to give up on that private car, especially if the live or work in a situation resembling that scenario.
So what do we learn? Taking away spaces for car shares will avoid the wrath of citizens where most of them already don't have or feel they need to have private cars, not in places where it will only benefit the minority that already doesn't have cars.
Live in the city and work in
By MattL
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:27pm
Live in the city and work in the suburbs? You just described the minority of Boston residents. You want to base policy on what only a few residents are doing?
A big minority
By Waquiot
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:49pm
About a third of workers in Boston work outside the city.
Yes, a lot of them live in the southern reaches of the city, and yes, places like Cambridge count as suburbs, but still, a third is a bit more than a few.
Southern neighborhoods and
By MattL
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 9:20am
Southern neighborhoods and Cambridge? Your counter examples are people who won't be impacted by the program at all.
Okay, here's a better statistic
By Waquiot
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 10:31pm
Per the 2009-2013 American Community Survey (5 year estimate) for Charlestown, there is an estimated universe of 9,759 workers age16+. Within that, 4,553, or 46%, use a car, truck, or van to get to work. The easiest number I could get for Chalestown is from 2000, but in that year, 36% worked "outside of county of residence."
The numbers I gave before were off the top of my head from a book I just finished reading, but the numbers I looked up seem to make your argument that much worse.
"outside of county of
By MattL
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 6:09am
That's a lot of text to just say "Cambridge" a second time.
Could be Cambridge
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 10:40am
Could be Woburn or anywhere on Route 128. The reality is that the Census Bureau is not going to tell us in which municipality every worker in Charlestown is employed.
Look, I have the common sense to admit when there could be extenuating circumstances. I am still waiting for you to walk back "a few" when 46% of the workers in Charlestown drive to work- and you better believe they ain't driving to Kendall Square.
Well, I apologize
By MattL
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 11:51am
Fine, I'll walk back my comment. You are entirely correct that a non-zero number of people drive to work from Charlestown. I hope that they can all find the strength to move past the loss of two parking spots.
It's a substantial number of
By anon
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 2:28pm
It's a substantial number of people, and there's obviously more than two car rental spots in the city.
And the 46% who drive to work?
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 3:02pm
Perhaps I'm misreading your handle and you are a bored Mitt looking to ignore a large part of the population since they don't share your values.
The thing is, I don't have a dog in this fight. It's most likely a good thing to add spots for these services, though it was done in a politically bad way. I just don't like the dismissal of a large chunk of people who cannot just migrate to zipcar et al as being "a few."
Perhaps I'm misreading your
By MattL
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 3:17pm
That's an ad hominem.
46% vs 47%
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 5:15pm
I gotta go with the material I'm given. I mean, that's the Census Bureau estimate of the population in Charlestown who drives to work and the number bonehead Romney said would never vote for Republicans being basically within the margin of error of each other. Plus the one letter name difference. How can I not make the comparison?
Still, I will give you that 46% is more than zero, as is 54%, being the working population of Charlestown who does not drive to work.
But no, I do not think you are the former Governor of Massachusetts. Feel better?
How can I not make the
By MattL
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 7:26pm
Because an ad hominem isn't a counter argument.
Okay
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 10:34pm
How about your casual way you think 46% is "a few?"
Would a challenge to your math be better than some stupid joke?
or
By ElizaLeila
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 10:57am
It's a drive to Stoneham. From JP. After dropping someone off in Somerville.
"only a few residents are
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:08pm
"only a few residents are doing?"
No. Quite a few, actually. Don't make assumptions.
Cool story, bro. Except it would be foolishly costly
By MC Slim JB
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:00pm
to use a ZipCar for commuting purposes. Nobody uses it that way. What short-term rental companies like ZipCar do is let ten people rent a car for a few hours when they need it, instead of owning and parking ten cars that they infrequently use. See how that's better for resident car owners looking for street parking?
That is the point, it's too
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:06pm
That is the point, it's too expensive for the large number of people in the city who need to use cars to get to jobs that are located outside of the city or away from public transit. People who only need a car for a few hours, rather than for an actual job, are going to be less likely to have a car in the first place.
Reverse commute?
By Allstonian
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:58pm
This is a specious argument. Nobody uses Zipcar for commuting. (Well, it's conceivable that someone might use the new one-way option for commuting within Boston/Brookline/Cambridge/Somerville, but not to the public-transit-free suburbs, because there aren't any one-way drop points there.)
However, we gave up our private car for Zipcar nearly 10 years ago, and have never regretted the decision. I think it's great that the city is sponsoring cars in underserved neighborhoods.
No it isn't
By Roman
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:14pm
You've made my point for me: it's not a done deal that putting in the car share will free up spaces on the block precisely because the car share doesn't solve the commuting problem for some (possibly large, I don't know) fraction of folks who need to park their own car on that block.
Is your argument that shared
By Kinopio
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 10:36pm
Is your argument that shared cars should get zero space because "some" drivers would rather not use shared cars? Boston drivers really are the worst, most entitled people.
more fuel on the fire
By Roman
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 11:37pm
Boston cyclists have us beat hands down :-)
You only think that
By eherot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 12:41pm
Because you're holding drivers to a different standard.
But really, there's no comparison:
https://twitter.com/eherot/status/657390015694163969
I think his argument is...
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 12:19pm
I think his argument is that some sort of analysis should have been done before the program was rolled out.
Like a poll
By Roman
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 7:41pm
Of local residents within a few blocks of the spaces asking
1. Do you own a car
2. How often do you use it
3. Would you use the zipcar if we put one on the block?
Those are all three important questions to ask to get a fine grained understanding of all the screwy corner cases in that, or any, neighborhoods. You want to at least have good numbers if you want to believe that good governance consists of doing the most good while doing the least bad and that you're actually living up to that.
500-1,000 convincing reasons
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:17pm
The economics of car ownership are convincing enough for people who only need a car occasionally.
My family has used Zip Car for years
By bibliotequetres...
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 1:50pm
Just as it makes sense to have a few dedicated cab stands around, although cabs are privately owned, providing car share parking in a few places also makes sense; both take more cars off the street than they add.
I believe I've sung their praises on UHub before.
When my partner had the Dart in the city and we had a driveway, ZipCar meant that we did not need to own a second car, parking it on the street.
Now that the Dart lives in CT, and our jobs have changed, ZipCar means we do not have to own a car here, at all. We no longer have a driveway, so that's one more street spot that we've avoided using.
We use it for standing medical appointments, and the occasional trip to Home Depot or Ikea. We commute, in my partner's case to the technical 'burbs (Somerville), by T.
That may be true...
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 4:43pm
I am a long time Zipcar customer, too. In my neighborhood, there is a commercial parking garage right across the street from the 4 spaces that were recently converted from meter spaces to Enterprise's exclusive use.
RIght across the street.
So it's clearly not a matter of making spaces available for these services; it's a matter of making them available cheaper than the market rate. And, given the long-term success of Zipcar, the business model works fine with market rate parking spaces and is not dependent upon subsidized ones.
These companies do not help
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:00pm
These companies do not help people who need cars to get to their jobs that are not near public transit. The fees are much higher. This is a private company taking control of what was public space that individuals could rent. Calling people names doesn't help you.
It's an indirect effect. More
By cden4
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 1:29pm
It's an indirect effect. More ZipCars means people who have a car but don't need it to commute every day can get rid of it and use ZipCar when they occasionally need one instead. This frees up parking spaces for people who DO need their cars to commute.
The idea is not that people who need a car to commute will use ZipCar instead. No one has ever claimed that.
People who need cars only
By anon
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 2:29pm
People who need cars only occasionally are less likely to have a car in the first place before these car rental programs.
That is true, but the
By cden4
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 4:51pm
That is true, but the availability of car share cars is often what allows people to finally sell that car that they are clinging onto "just in case." I do hear from people that they would sell their car as they only use it once a week or less, but there are often no ZipCars available at the times when they would need one.
Based on the number of people who left their car parked on the street for weeks at a time last winter, it's clear that there still are plenty of people who could get by without owning one as long as there was easy access to a ZipCar or other shared car.
Citation Please
By JP Resident
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:24pm
Show me exactly the study that proves this. You're speaking out of your rear end.
Ask and ye shall receive:
By eherot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 12:44pm
Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.accessmagazine.org/articles/spring-2011...
The Zipcar Space Saver
By BostonDog
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 1:54pm
What are the chances the same people who vocally oppose these Zipcar spots are also the ones who loudly defend winter space savers as fair and just?
Are you really comparing this
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:21pm
Are you really comparing this BS to winter space savers?
Yes. Yes, I think he is.
By Sally
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:04pm
Would you prefer one Zipcar space or would you rather the X number of people in your area who use it instead of buying a car to be fighting over parking spaces with you? Do the math.
False choice. People who use
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:17pm
False choice. People who use cars to commute daily aren't going to use rental cars anyway, unless it becomes less expensive.
I think you're forgetting
By eherot
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 12:46pm
I think you're forgetting that those occasional car users that no longer need a car (because of ZipCar) are currently storing their barely-used vehicles in spaces that you (the commuter) want to park in when you get home. If they get rid of their cars, you will have more options.
What?
By ElizaLeila
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 4:36pm
Why would someone use Zip Car when they already own a car?
Many reasons I have
By Kaz
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 5:33pm
1) My car is a 2-door convertible. If I need to haul stuff home from Ikea, I get a ZipVan or ZipCar SUV. ZipCar has both convenience and availability over renting a UHaul or truck from Home Depot, etc.
2) I was dropped off at Logan by a friend and when I got back a week later, nobody was available at the time I arrived to pick me up (and if I had been delayed they wouldn't have had to wait either). Rather than UberX (because I refuse to use Uber on principle) or a taxi, I got a ZipCar One-Way from the airport (located at the Avis stand) and drove it to the drop-off about 2 blocks from my house and for far less cost than a taxi, less hassle, less waiting, etc.
3) My car went into the shop for an emergency repair to the engine and the shop had already reserved its loaners to other customers. I still needed to run errands and get back to the dealership when the car was repaired. Fortunately I had a friend that could help with getting to/from the dealership but I got a ZipCar for the errands.
Why Zipcar for car owner?
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 5:43pm
We own one car. Sometimes one of us needs a car when the other is using it. Zipcar is great for that.
Why Zipcar for car owner?
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 5:43pm
We own one car. Sometimes one of us needs a car when the other is using it. Zipcar is great for that.
Quite the contrary
By Bob Leponge
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:42pm
I think it's much more likely that people who have a principled objection to exclusive private use of what ought to be a shared public resource take the consistent position that it's not OK when Enterprise Car Rental does it any more than it's OK when Grandpa does it in front of his house.
That's Fine
By BostonDog
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:57pm
You can be opposed to both space savers AND the Zipcar spots on the basis that it "reserves" a public resource. What's hypocritical (and the point of my above post) are the people who oppose zipcar yet think it's perfectly fine to save their own spot.
Anyway, Zipcar is paying the city, correct? The cone and lawn chair crowd takes the public resource without giving anything extra back to the public which is normally the biggest objection to them.
Couple of points...
By Bob Leponge
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:43pm
Not Exactly
By BostonDog
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:06pm
I don't know about Boston but in at least Brookline the town has rented public parking spots to the Zipcar and that is common in other cities. Provided the city is getting a good amount of cash for these spots I don't see the objection -- there are lots of public areas you can rent or lease for a fee.
I agree with you about calling "Car Sharing" a rental which is what it is.
Zipcar has had spots in the city lot at Forest Hills for years.
By bibliotequetres...
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 1:58pm
Just as some businesses get designated loading/unloading zones, and cab stands exist, sometimes curb space gets put aside for reasons beside parking privately owned cars. All of which keeps the city functioning.
Zipcar increases street parking availability
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:13pm
When people realize that they can use Zipcar, they tend to sell their cars and use Zipcar, as it is far more cost effective for occasional use.
That means that each Zipcar space results in 15-20 vehicles being removed from the streets.
That's 45 to 60 spaces, right there. http://bostonparking.spplus.com/zip-car.html
In college settings, schools save even more campus parking by putting these in (most students with a car on campus are not commuting daily, so people tend to leave them at home if a zipcar is available).
One cone only saves 1 space for one car. One zipcar spot is 15-20 vehicles not sitting for long periods of time, taking up space, not being used much. Take your pick.
When people realize that they
By pris.maTK
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:18pm
[citation needed]
Has anyone seen any studies done on how many cars Zipcar does, in fact, take off the road, or are we just taking what Zipcar says about it as fact?
I gave you a citation
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:58pm
Here's another one, where an independent UC Berkeley (not the music school) investigation found 9-13 cars taken off the road by carsharing program members (not just Zipcar members).
http://www.shareable.net/blog/does-car-sharing-rea...
There are several links in this article, which is why I'm citing it and not the original research that it links to. (the direct link is also a .pdf, which can be problematic)
Here are some more from the UC Berkeley Report:
Your first "citation" was a
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:14pm
Your first "citation" was a link to a parking company's own information.
Yes and no
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:40pm
They linked out as well.
In any case, the UC Berkeley numbers are certainly reliable, as they actually asked people if they got rid of their cars after joining car sharing programs.
However, that "company's own number" isn't far off the independent survey, anyway. Zipcar's 15-20 (which includes some huge on-campus college parking numbers) nearly overlaps the 9-13 cited by the Berkeley researchers (which did not include students living on campus).
"They linked out as well."
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 6:00pm
"They linked out as well."
They linked out to zipcar's website. Nice try.
So
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 9:52pm
Your problem is ...
A better link was provided, as requested. Instead of bitching about the first one, go read the second.
Your second link doesn't
By anon
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 2:31pm
Your second link doesn't focus on Boston and many them are quite old and and one only studied the first year.
"not the music school"
By miaow
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 5:00pm
"not the music school"
Did you really think most of us don't know there's a UC Berkeley and a Berklee College of Music, and that they are different schools?
Thanks - I'm convinced.
By pris.maTK
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 11:29am
Thanks - I'm convinced.
Where are the studies that
By Kinopio
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 10:45pm
Where are the studies that say using city space and money for free storage of private vehicles is a good idea? You won't find such a thing. Car sharing is far from perfect but it's better than the stupid idea of everyone in a city having their own car.
It's in the same place as the study that says
By issacg
Mon, 10/26/2015 - 2:29pm
that having substandard intraurban, commuter and intercity rail are good ideas.
My math differs from yours.
By Bob Leponge
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 7:44pm
By my math, taking 15-20 vehicles off the street should free up 3 to 5 parking spaces, since the ratio of registered vehicles to on-street spaces in my neighborhood is 5:1.
A deliberately broken process....
By Bob Leponge
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 2:54pm
From the project website: http://www.cityofboston.gov/transportation/drivebo...
Translation: In evaluating the program, we are going to count only the benefits (to the car rental companies and to their customers) and completely ignore the costs (on local merchants and residents who are losing parking spaces). The evaluation criteria were set up so that success and expansion is a foregone conclusion.
Nobody is losing a parking space
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:15pm
Again, Zipcar has a long track record of creating spaces because people get rid of cars or leave them with mom and dad.
The general public is losing
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 3:57pm
The general public is losing parking spaces where they can temporarily park their personal cars. A private company is gaining control of parking spaces. It's pretty simple. These car rental services do not help people who need their cars to commute daily because they have reverse commutes or their jobs are away from public transportation, which is a sizable number of people in Boston.
No it isn't simple
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 4:41pm
The Public is netting 8-12 spaces for each of those spaces.
That's called an investment.
But, hey, if you like circling around when you get home from work because some people have cars they use once a week sitting there, keep it up.
If you can't understand how eight to twelve fewer cars just sitting there hurts your chances of finding parking when you get home from work, I can't help you.
"The Public is netting 8-12
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 5:59pm
"The Public is netting 8-12 spaces for each of those spaces."
What recent studies analyze Boston's parking and commuting needs and show that the city going to get 8-12 spaces?
"That's called an investment."
No, it's called leasing public property to a company so they can charge additional fees in order to gain a profit.
"If you can't understand how eight to twelve fewer cars just sitting there hurts your chances of finding parking when you get home from work, I can't help you."
Again, find studies that take into account Boston's needs and show we are going to get 8 to 12 fewer cars in this city.
Two hours before your post
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 8:14pm
The information that you seek was posted above.
I can't wait for all these
By anon
Sun, 10/25/2015 - 7:04pm
I can't wait for all these occasionally used cars to magically disappear, so as to free up all these projected spots. What's the rate of return all knowing one?
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