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T riders get to vote on paint schemes for new trains; no word on vote to retain wood paneling on the Orange Line
By adamg on Tue, 10/20/2015 - 12:41pm
State transportation officials have three proposed exterior paint schemes for the new Orange, Red and Green Line trains that could begin rolling out in a few years and want the public to help them pick among them.
The first of 24 new Green Line trolleys are scheduled for 2017 delivery, while some of the 152 new Orange Line cars should begin rolling out the next year, followed by some of the 132 new Red Line trains in late 2019.
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Gee
I'm kinda partial to the one Adam has on display.. the other ones are kinda.. ehhh.
Me too!
I picked that for Orange and Red. Would have been nice to have a parallel design for the Green, though.
yeah
all three green line designs are kinda ugly... it would have been nice to have all be one design.
3 - 1 - 3
Those are my choices.
That is correct
No reasonable person would disagree.
1-2-1
Obviously the superior combo.
idk
It's very '90s - which is still decades newer-looking than what we've got now, but not something I'm wild about.
Bredas
Its better than the Breda interiors.. aqua green/blue with that hot dog pattern. Someone musta been watching a late 80s episode of "Double Dare" or "Out of Control" or "Saved by the Bell" to get ideas for those interiors.
Propulsion Gel!
The one Adam has selected looks like it's sprayed with Propulsion Gel from Portal. This is a fantastic idea -- the trains will finally move quickly!
This is my favorite design too but I think in time it won't look as nice and the designs with the orange on the bottom of the car will do a better job indicating which line the train is on. (Helpful to those from out of town.)
Portal was great!!
Point of pride, my son beat Portal 2 at age 6. So proud. that is all.
Congratulations
Have some cake:
The dot/flame color at the
The dot/flame color at the ends is COOOOL!
I'll take any color as long
I'll take any color as long as they are not defective and that they run efficiently and timely!!
Paint
We can't afford to paint the whole car?
Paint becomes a maintenance
Paint becomes a maintenance thing. If they are aluminum on stainless steel car bodies they'll stay looking spiffy longer. The Green Line Type 8s, new Blue Line Cars, and the newer Red Line cars are examples of that.
Less paint =better
you know
That painters get paid nearly in the six figures, yeah? I'd say the less surface area to paint the better. Search for "Rail Maint Red Cabot" as the department under the MBTA's payroll (job title: painter) here:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/databases/payroll?database=9&ye...
Not bad pay for what amounts to industrial spray-painting.
Peeling paint also looks like crap
Besides the cost, I think they'll also look a lot better over the years (compare the stainless steel Red Line cars to the old painted ones). The amount of rust and peeling paint I see every day on the Orange Line makes me sad. That in addition to the delays due to dead trains, of course.
3-2-2
I think that's what I voted. They were all so boring I can't remember.
I know I voted for differing designs on the Red & Orange. I figured I'd give a break to the colorblind among us.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
I Like The New Station Designs — 4 Tracks For Express Service!
Investments Needed
We would need significant investments to have 4-way express and local services. But it is a good idea. i wish now they could do semi-express service or skip-stop service for especially the Red and Orange Lines during both morning and afternoon rush hours especially in the peak direction.
Express Or "Skip-Stop" Requires Trains To Pass One Another
So, it'd need at least three tracks to make it work. In the past, when the system was recovering from service interruptions, they'd run some Red Line trains as express, for example, from Park Street to Harvard without stopping. But, that was only possible because there were no trains on the line ahead.
I haven't had that happen to me in years, so I'm not sure whether The Ⓣ still does it. It makes sense however, when the system is coming back online and trains are all bunched up.
I have had trains go
I have had trains go expression on the Orange (Forest Hills), but definitely a rare occurrence and it seemed to be to make up for botched headways. The Orange does have a third express track though from Wellington to the Charles River portal, but its almost never used (and was for when it was expanded to Reading). I do wonder if, with better signaling/tracking system, it could be better emulated on a two track system using tons of cross overs, and allowing the 'express' train priority through stations to locals (that would wait) - kind of like the Acela, Regionals, Commuter Rail, etc.
Anyways, getting a 3rd track would be soooo cost prohibitive in the central system for any line it will never happen, although maybe we could get them after getting out of the tunnels.
Why not a unified scheme?
I think I liked option two across the board. The least amount of line-specific color possible.
Why can't we just have all of them painted in a same agency-branded color scheme? The only major example I can think of that still does this paint-by-line thing is Tokyo. New York, Paris, London, Madrid, and Barcelona, among many others, have standardized this and their systems look much more cohesive than the T.
I'd argue the contrary
In most of those cities, they can't really have cars painted for each line, because cars can run on pretty much any line at any time. (New York City has two loading gauges, London 4 or 5, Chicago 1, etc.) So while most of those cities have color-coded lines, it doesn't make sense to paint cars for a certain line and really preclude their use on other lines.
In Boston, however, the loading gauges are different for each line. Basically what happened was that the Green Line was built for trolleys and was immediately over capacity, so the Orange Line was built for the elevated trains (which were longer but still rather narrow), and that was over capacity, so they built the Red Line which was pretty much the largest subway car around in 1912. The Blue Line was converted from streetcars to rapid transit cars in 1924.
In any case, now and in the future each line will run different rolling stock (and, no, converting everything to run one type of cars would either require a significant reduction in capacity with narrower cars on the Red Line or inconceivably complex tunnel work, plus there are no track connections between lines anyway). And since the cars are all segregated, they can be painted in the colors of the line.
Which is useful. If you're a tourist, and you're getting on the Blue Line, it's nice when the car that shows up is blue. If you were designing the system from scratch, you would certainly design all the cars with the same loading gauge with each line having a track connection (like DC did). But that wasn't the case. The color-coded cars are a small consolation.
I can certainly appreciate
I can certainly appreciate that point of view (and I suspect that may be part of the logic behind the continued practice) but the fact that the lines don't connect or have operational commonality does not preclude the MBTA from realizing efficiencies in terms of maintenance. The only appreciable difference--from a purely non-mechanical point of view--between Red/Orange/Blue, is the length of the cars. I would think buying paint and maintaining a combined fleet of cars with the same color scheme would dramatically cut down on material costs as well as time needed to deal with specialized paint by line. Perhaps the difference isn't all that much.
Further, I'd submit the upgraded LED displays for destination/line color on the trains themselvescolor-coding on station platforms along with as more than sufficient to reassure passengers they are waiting for the right train. Boston actually does a much better job of coordinating the line color into station platforms than many other places. Now if only we could get them to assign numbers to the lines in addition to the colors...
Why numbers?
We just don't have that complicated a system.
For the same reason that just
For the same reason that just about every system employs a combination of colors and numbers and/or letters: they reinforce the route designation and allow for much simpler and easy-to-digest signage. While the T is indeed a smaller system, it's hardly intuitive for visitors and people new to the area (e.g. inbound/outbound indicators, Green Line branches, Red Line branches...).
The T has a hodgepodge of signage around the system that is some combination of (1) line color and/or name + (2) destination/terminus + (3) via downtown connector (e.g. Orange Line to Forest Hills via State). There's very little consistency with this and I have often seen the line name written in black over a white background with a directional arrow indicating the best route to reach the platform. Not to mention, for the new line maps seen on stations and on trains, the T has opted to only use a dot or square with the line color - no name or even RL/OL/BL/GL designation. Not exactly user friendly.
Compare:
http://parisbytrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/rer_metro_sign_gare_d...
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/wordpress_uploads/2014/03/madrid-metro1...
http://www.mbta.com/uploadedimages/Riding_the_T/Accessible_Services/Acce...
Or:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/MBTA_Broadway....
http://www.quitecurious.com/wp-content/gallery/spain4/6-metro-sign.jpg
http://www.about-paris.com/images/chatelet-les-halles.jpg
The cars are different widths
The cars are different widths. Red line cars wouldn't be able to pull into a blue station without hitting the platform.
Why numbers? What is wrong
Why numbers? What is wrong with colors and letters? Also, the subway cars have different loading gauges - its not just height but also width. Not only will they not fit into each other's tunnels (I think the Blue could actually do red or orange tunnels, but red/orange can't fit in each others), the width problem makes it so they can't even pull up to the same platforms, as they will either be too narrow (and the train would hit it) or it would be too wide ( and a huge gap). Plus, the Blue line is a hybrid third rail/overhead catenary running which is pointless on the Orange/Red. They are basically completely incompatible, although, and the cost of different paint jobs ain't going to make a difference. Now, I believe the new Red and Orange cars will have a pretty shared mechanical setup (with the different bodies), which should help - but, lets be honest, stocking two colors of paint instead of one isn't a big deal.
The train cars are different
The train cars are different in all dimensions, not just length. Look closely at a Blue Line car for example, it's like a miniaturized version of an Orange Line. The BL roofs are also modified to use overhead catenaries like the Green Line.
On the other hand
I remember when the Red Line cars were Blue (and yes, they were probably put into service before the coloring scheme took hold.)
Clearly in preparation for
Clearly in preparation for the long-awaited extension of the 1 from Riverdale.
Already mapped out, too
Subways of North America (which also shows the Green Line extension to Canada).
And the old Green Line
And the old Green Line trolleys were red.
Nope
Tangerine and Traction Orange. Neither of these colors are considered to be shades of red.
In Boston, however, the
The four lines were originally independent companies; that's why they're all different.
Not quite true
The whole system was designed by one agency, in different incarnations. By and large the framework was laid by the Boston Transit Commission.
Yes, the Tremont Street subway was open to different companies, but there had to be standardization. That said, the Boston Elevated were the first users of what are now the Red and Orange Lines. The trouble with the Blue Line is that it was designed for trolleys, so their cars have been different.
Because In Other Cities, The Trains Are Usually Interchangeable
Instead of a unified system, where any train can operate on any line, The Ⓣ has kept every line distinctly different from each other, such that trains must be custom-designed, specifically for each individual line. The reasons it got that way, go back to design constraints that evolved over the past century.
There are lively discussions among Railfans that explain the many individual restrictions and other details — for example, Blue Line cars are shorter than Orange Line cars because they need to wrap around the tight loop at Bowdoin. Orange Line cars are smaller than Red Line cars because they need to fit through the ancient Washington Street tunnels.
When the modern Orange Line was constructed in the 1980's, there was an opportunity to make it compatible with the Red Line by reconstructing the Washington Street tunnel, and replacing the stations at State, Milk, Summer, Winter and Chinatown. I'm sure the high cost and disruption involved, caused that option to be discarded at the time.
When the Red/Blue connector is eventually constructed, the Bowdoin loop will be eliminated, so it's a shame (in many ways) that hasn't been done by now, as was promised in the Big Dig mitigation.
Fixing all the incompatibilities would have cost a lot of money, but it would have saved a lot more in the long run. Universal trains (and tracks) would cost much less to procure and maintain, than four highly specialized designs.
So, if they must be different, why not give each train its own personal color?
BL vs OL cars
The Orange Line and Blue Line cars and tracks are almost identical. Except the BL cars are shorter due to the station sizes. And the BL can use both third rail or a pantograph for power. But generally can be run on both lines.
There was talk when the BL cars were retiring to send them over to the Orange Line. But due to how much rust buckets they were (due to the BL's proximity to the sea and salt air), most were salvaged for parts for the OL cars, and the rest sold to scrap.
Orange Line cars are also
wider than Blue Line cars. So the retired Blue Line cars would have to been modified with outside skirts - to eliminate the otherwise excessive gap between the car and the platform - in order to run on the Orange Line.
It was determined that this would not be cost effective, given the age and condition of the cars.
I Wonder If They Knew At The Time, It Would Be A Decade Or More…
… before the arrival of new Orange Line trains, that they wouldn't have decided to implement this stop-gap measure. It certainly would be nice to have a couple more trains in service right now!
that's if
That's if they ran at all.. the old BL cars were not in any better shape than the OL ones. And in some ways, worse off. So I'm not sure if having them now would have been a blessing or not.. or we'd just have more disabled trains than we have now.
Grey
Surprised to see so much grey and black on the green line car designs. Considering how often we have car-trolley collisions, I would want to make the trolley cars as visible as possible...
Seating
Do we get to vote on the arrangement of seats inside the cars? I hate the newer Type 8 cars on the Green Line. Sitting sideways on a line that makes such frequent starts and stops is REALLY uncomfortable.
BART did that
They put a bunch of demo train cars in various parts of the Bay Area for the public to test out and vote on, before the fleet was finalized: https://www.bart.gov/about/projects/cars/customer-feedback
It's actually a good idea, because it saves transit agencies from having to jerryrig a retrofit to a silly mistake after the cars have been delivered and paid for. (I'm strongly reminded of the too-high overhead grab pole in the Type 8 Green Line cars, and the flimsy rubber straps put in to remedy the situation...a seasoned commuter could tell immediately that that bar was too high for practical use.)
capacity
bus-style seating drastically cuts capacity of the cars, and considering the already existing capacity crunch on the GL, that seems like a poor choice. The better choice would be to decrease the starting and stopping: better for riders, for the mechanicals, and eliminating some stops would speed up the line (by a lot). Add in Transit Signal Priority, and you've got yourself a quick, smooth ride. (Relative to what's there now at least).
1, 2, 3, if anyone was interested.
You can view the interiors in
You can view the interiors in here:
Around page 20
Those are interesting, but ...
Those are specifically from the Hyundai-Rotem bid, which, given the issues the T has had with their commuter-rail coaches, was probably doomed from the start.
Graffiti Artists and Anarchists will determine the vote!
Finally a cause that anarchists and vandals will unite to support and vote for.
The dot fade will not age well
The dot fade will look so dated so fast.
I voted 2-1-2.
I already thought "dated'
I already thought "dated' when I saw it. It looks like something out of a dotcom ad from the early 2000s.
I would paint some classic
I would paint some classic hot rod flames on the front ends of the trains.
1's all the way!
Sleek & modern looking plus lots of identifiable color.
T facing issue
albiet a minor one, with the new Green Line cars - which will be numbered in the 3900 series. Currently, Green Line inspectors use 9XX radio identifiers (i.e. 918). As radio protocol is to drop the '3' when calling a train (i.e. Car 3619 would be referred to as '619' over the air), having a number series that potentially conflicts with current inspector designations will create confusion.
I also question the practice of having to designate the next series of car in a higher number series than the previous ones. Seems to me it would be just as easy to use numbers form a long-retired series of cars (such as the old 3100 or 3200 series) instead.