Hey, there! Log in / Register
Looks like T workers need another memo about photography
By adamg on Fri, 02/07/2014 - 7:53am
T workers tell Anthony Tulliani he can't take pictures on the T even though T policy says you can take pictures on the T.
Separately, T workers got a memo this week that they can't sleep on the job.
Neighborhoods:
Topics:
Free tagging:
Ad:
Support Universal Hub
Help keep Universal Hub going. If you like what we're up to and want to help out, please consider a (completely non-deductible) contribution.
Comments
Hey look at me!
My name is Anthony Tulliani and I have the power to take picures and show everyone on The Internet!
What a fucking clown. You don't have to tell everyone over and over that you are going to file a complaint and ask everyone where that complaint needs to be filed on camera just to get attention.
He was probably trying to look up skirts of little girls and got caught.
I dunno
Maybe he goes on a bit much, but he wouldn't have done it to begin with if the T worker hadn't tried to make him turn off the camera. T workers keep insisting people stop taking pictures even though T policy has allowed photography for quite awhile now - and you don't even need a permit, like in the old days.
Then he posted it for everyone to see....
For attention and to show the power he has as a blue collar white male from a working class town over a female black government worker. No one tells Anthony Tulliani where to take pictures!
He knows
its worth a month of Herald columns for the clown posse.
Aww, poor babies!
Cops and T workers are paid by the public, and their misbehavior should be a matter of public record.
Sorry if you forget that sometimes.
I never said they didn't have the right....
Just pointing out that this person appears to want attention from people on the Internet. You do the same thing.
And this isn't a cop beating up some poor kid. This is a power tripping black woman telling a white man what to do. The white man doesn't like that, so he is going to make sure the black woman gets punished for it, and the white man is going to show everyone who really has the power, by telling everyone the power he has.
He's doing a service to others
Not every French or Japanese tourist or resident of Boston has the time to complain about this abuse of government power.
For every video he posts, how many other people have been hassled by these power-mad MBTA staff?
At least 100 to 1.
Who cares if they're white or black? Abuse of government position is wrong.
You can't prohibit something without a law.
You need to make up your mind Pete
First you insinuate that his true desire was to shot photos up womens skirts.
Then you say he just wants attention from the internet and this has nothing to do with his right to photograph/film in public.
Finally you throw out the race card and clearly know that his true intentions were fueled by racial hatred towards a black woman that dared to challenge him.
Or maybe this just triggered a response from you regarding filming/tracking of public workers in general and you have nothing of substance to argue against that. I know the police aren't too fond of being filmed in public and despite the Simon Glik case, BPD still insist that we don't have a right to film/photograph in public. Nor are they fans of GPS tracking for cruisers.
You're right though, this isn't some cop beating up a poor kid. But why is that ok? I was a young 19 year old once, taking photos from South Station of the Fed tower. I was approached by an officer that insisted that I delete the photos because I was breaking some law he couldn't name. Being young and naive as I was, I didn't question his authority and removed my film from my camera, ruining not only the shots of the Fed building but all the other buildings I had photographed for class that day.
Public workers cannot abuse their authority and in this new digital age where everyone has a cellphone with video capabilities, more of those who abuse authority will get called out in public and I think thats a good thing. I mean you guys already have cameras in public, the subway and police cruisers looking at us, why are you so scared of a lens being pointed back at you?
Ok...
Filming up skirt comment was to show the power I had on the Internet, and you never know, from what we saw on this film, maybe he was covering his bases when he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing.
I do think he wanted attention, and have no idea what triggered this interaction.
The race/power issue could be very true, and may have contributed to his reaction in this situation, in addition to his want of attention. I've worked in IA/HR departments for the city and I see white people complaing about how they are treated/spoken to by black employees at a very high rate. most of it is warranted, but some of it is a race/gender/power issue.
How does the BPD not want you to have the right to film in public? Ad the BPD does want GPS in cruisers, and they want cameras. Defense attorneys and bad/lazy cops do not want these same cameras, and the ACLU isn't to fond of them either. The BPD is the one that is asking for GPS and more cameras.
Again, my main point was about how Anthony went on and on about his right to film, and where he was going to complain. I Think he wanted to provoke more of a reaction from the employee, so he could get more attention on the Internet.
Mental Gymnastics
Are you competing at Rio in 2016?
Mental gymnastics is more complicated....
Don't make this out to be more complicated than it is. Let me dumb it down for you.
I thought the guy was a dink.
The MBTA employee was wrong (not my point but it seems to be for other people, even though that part should be pretty obvious to everyone).
That's really it.
Starting thread with suggestion of a crime?
Want to make a believable argument? To quote that exemplar of policing Joe Friday, "All we want are the facts, ma'am." Making false accusations, launching ad hominem attacks pretty much zeroes out credibility.
You had no real argument here. That's really it.
Other than some guy that was a dink in your opinion. Glad we could clear that up.
Exactly.....
But everyone wants to spin other crap into the argument......
The guy is a dink, did I say anything else? Did I say the T worker was right?
yeah I'm sure if a white guy
yeah I'm sure if a white guy was telling him to stop taking pictures he totally would've just stopped and gone about his business.
Maybe maybe not.
Like I said, I've heard a lot of complaints from white people against black workers. Some of them probably have to do with race and power more than they have to do with job performance.
Really, The race card?
You're better than that.
Get over yourself
If you take pictures on the MBTA, then maybe you'd understand. There's a lot of employees who will harass people who take pictures. They will give you as hard a time as possible. This guy probably had run ins before and now he finally has video of some employee who doesn't want to read an official policy and rather just power trip instead.
No I think it's more of a power trip.....
Or else he wouldn't have gone on and on putting on a show like he did.
Yeah, 'cause wanting to
Yeah, 'cause wanting to exercise your rights to a public resource is a "power trip". Sounds like someone was power-tripping in this scenario and it wasn't the photog.
No, I think only one was on a power trip
The MBTA worker probably didn't know the rule. Anthony stated over and over how he was going to file a complaint, and asked numerous times where to do that. See Saul's comments below, they hit the nail on the head.
"Probably didn't know the rule"
Jesus, you just don't know when to quit. If she doesn't know the rule, then she is the wrong, period. Whether you don't like the guys approach is your problem. Good for him pointing out that she was talking out her ass.
By the way, how'd those charges against Carlos Miller you were defending work out?
Reading compression....
She was wrong. And he was a dink. Not my problem, my opinion.
Carlos Miller? He broke a MA law that he didn't know about, and he won't ever do it again. I think justice was served there.
Carlos miller broke a law?
Really? I thought all charges were dropped.
Charges being dropped doesn't mean a law isn't broken....
..
What is the basis for your claim
that he broke a law?
I don't even really remember...
But I believe that according to the statute, he broke the law. He claimed to have advised the woman that she was being recorded? But forgot to record it or deleted it by accident?
You don't remember correctly
because Miller never made a recording. You can't be bothered to remember the specifics of charges you vehemently defended, yet feel comfortable claiming you know that he broke "a law" (that's real specific) and that justice was served.
You're taking a beating in this thread for a reason. Wake up man.
Justice was served....
You are correct, Hardy was charged with the wiretapping, and Miller was charged with Witness Intimidation after he encouraged people to call a person to drop charges that were pending in a criminal case. That is witness intimidation, and he had a pretty good chance of losing if he didn't remove the post from the internet (which he did). So I stand by what I said, the charges would be correct under the law, and the BPD gave him a chance to stop the criminal act, and he did. Justice served.
Neither of us are judges
Your "witness intimidation" is my "lawfully and peaceably petition a government official"
It isn't my "witness intimidation"
It is the "witness intimidation" that has had hundreds of case law decisions on it already, many that I have read. I've also had thousands of hours experience in courtrooms and have a pretty good idea of what sticks and what doesn't stick in terms of criminal charges.
No, you don't
Because those bogus charges lasted all of a week before the BPD dropped them. You know why? Because the police attorney knew they were going to get their asses handed to them if they pursued it. In fact, the BPD's attorney reached out to Millers legal counsel requesting mediation before the first hearing. The only "justice" was the BPD making a fool of themselves.
Not true...
But go ahead and think what you want. If they were bogus, Carlos Miller could have had an easy lawsuit don't you think? Instead he backed down and took down his statements like the police told him to. Civil rights attorneys love to jump over easy cases like this. But knew they didn't have one here with a defendant on an already existing court complaint For an intimidation charge.
And good luck to Carlos miller and other Alex Jones guys, they have a good business going for themselves. Miller obviously couldn't make any money on this one though, seeing that he knew he was wrong.
"The MBTA worker probably didn't know the rule."
Then if he didn't know the rule, why the hell was he harassing a member of the public who was doing nothing wrong?
What?
Rule says photos are allowed on MBTA property.
MBTA worker does not know that rule.
Patron takes photo on MBTA property.
MBTA worker tells patron not to take photos because MBTA worker does not know the rule about letting people take photos!
Logic
So in your world, photos are not allowed anywhere until somebody makes a rule that they are?
Photos are allowed in public locations unless the state or controlling authority for that space makes a law/rule otherwise. If you don't know about the rule, that means they are allowed, ergo you keep your mouth shut.
The MBTA worker didn't "not know about the rule." She made up her own rule and then commenced enforcing it. That's a completely different thing.
Everything not forbidden is mandatory?
It's not like there is "a rule allowing photography," it's that there is no rule forbidding photography. Huge difference. So it's not that the MBTA worker doesn't know the rule, it's that she's making up a rule that doesn't exist, and using that to annoy people.
Consider this: What if she were going around telling people that there was a rule against reading the newspaper?
There is a 9 page policy on it.....
There are parts of this policy which allow and don't allow photography.
How the hell do you need 9 pages to say that
"There is no restriction on taking photographs from anyplace you are legally allowed to be."
Most of the 8 pages are about commercial and media photography
Link
Because there ARE restrictions.
Hence the 9 page policy. Where did you come up with that quote by the way?
Don't be lazy and go read the policy.
That quote, while not
That quote, while not verbatim, sums up the policy nicely: If you can be in a location or see something as part of your usual travels on the T (e.g. not in an employee-only area), you can film it for personal use.
Almost....
There are clearly restrictions.
Yes, there are safety
Yes, there are safety limitations on equipment.
I was referring to what can be photographed, not how.
Yes, those are restrictions, but
... they have nothing to do with photography. Blocking the free flow of passengers is against the rules, irrespective of whether or not you are taking pictures.
I don't need to read the policy
because I have read the Constitution, and any element of the policy that is in conflict with the Constitution is not going to be enforceable anyhow.
constitution?
Oh jeeze. Sorry, your one of those guys.
I know, right? The
I know, right? The Constitution is for losers, amirite?
Losers love the constitution....
I can shoot my gun because the constitution says so.....
I can yell fire in a crowded theater because the constitution says I have freedom of speech....
I understand the constitution, just don't use it as a defense in court when you get arrested because there is more to criminal law and criminal procedure than what's in the Constitutuion.
I will use the Constitution as a defense in court
in the same way that Simon Glik did: to defend myself when I am arrested or harassed by police who are either breaking the law or who are applying a law that is unconstitutional.
It seems pretty obvious that, while the Constitution does not allow shouting "fire" in a public theater or firing your gun wherever you want, it does forbid the government from preventing you from taking pictures someplace where you are legally allowed to be.
I don't think photography is anywhere in the constitution....
And up why can't I take commercial photos in a public place like MBTA property? If I have the right to be there, and my tripod isn't in the way of anyone, why can't I use it? Why do I have to get a permit to use a flash if I'm not pointing that flash at a person or train? Can I take upskirt pics? Can I take pics of computer screens in MBTA offices that have open doors?
We are getting off track here, but I don't think the constitution gives you all the help you need. I wouldn't tell the police they need a warrant to search your car if it is unregistered and the inventory policy says they can search it under the automobile exception rule, even though the 4th amendment says you might need a warrant (which it doesn't)
Strawman anyone?
Complaining that constitutions (state and federal) do not address specifics simply avoids addressing the issue of actions and behaviors are legal or illegal. Constitutions are not to address the vast majority of the details of every day life. The essence of constitutions is to provide broad outlines (at least in the U.S.). For that matter anything not proscribed is automatically legal. Our legal system of based on the assumption that everything is legal unless it is specifically declared illegal. Then the law proscribing a behavior itself has to comply with the governing constitutions.
Why is banning yelling fire (when there is none) in a crowded auditorium Constitutional? Because free speech is not absolute and a false alarm could cause a stampede resulting in harm. Not even the current Supreme Court in its gun loving reasoning declared that gun ownership is an absolute (pseudo) right. The Court still left plenty of room for regulation.
All the questions about commercial photos, tripods on platforms, flash permits, violations of privacy (even in public) by taking pictures up women's skirts and photos of monitors in T rooms with open doors are red herrings. When there is a ban there needs to be a rational for it. No rational? Ban has no reason to exist.
We are talking about the law here...
And how there are exceptions and why they're written certain ways.
Constitutions do not protect you from most things, and that is why we have state governments and case laws to make sure they are protected. Just don't use the constitution as your defense in court, that was the point I was referring to.
Your right to photography cannot infringe on my property rights, that's why the rule is written the way it is.
So Pete, what do you know
So Pete, what do you know about Bird Law?
Well…yes and no.
Again in the United States law is based upon presiding Constitutions. If a law or policy contradicts the presiding constitution then it goes. State and federal governments all ultimately derive authority from their respective constitutions. I agree that arguing a defense on the basis of a constitution will go nowhere when determining guilt or innocence. But once a case moves to the appellate level the constitutional issues do provide the protection, especially it is turns out that a given state law is considered unconstitutional.
Do constitutions provide the kind of protection that state governments or case law do? Of course not. Constitutions are designed to address the broad issues of governance and government. Mistakes are made when constitutions are used to dictate particular things such as producing alcoholic beverages or defining marriage. Even the Bill of Right was an add on. The federal Constitution was not intended to be that specific but that was the price for getting enough support from the original colonies.
On the other hand what prevents the T from banning all photography? I do not know the particulars of the history. But I would not be surprised if it was a realization that they could not defend a blanket policy in court because the policy would not stand up to a constitutional challenge.
Lawyers.
Lawyers.
How do you enforce a rule that doesn't exist?
I had a Massport cop do the same thing to me once, its a little more intimidating when you yourself didn't know the rule *because it doesn't exist* when the person telling you has a gun, a badge and handcuffs. There's a difference between not knowing a rule, and enforcing a rule that does not exist.
I certainly wouldn't have gone about this the same way if the issue arose, but I'm also not walking away anymore when someone tells me I can't do something I know damn well I have the right to do.
Who's on the power trip?
All he's doing is an ordinary legal activity not prohibited by the laws of Massachusetts or the USA.
Seems to me these MBTA people are on the "power trip."
She has no power.....
She didn't even know the rule. Anthony had the power, because he knew the rule, and wanted to tell her about it. In fact he told her over and over again about the rule. He has the power to complain, and maybe get some fired or disciplined.
If hundreds of people are getting their cameras taken away every day by MBTA employees, we might have a serious problem. I don't think it is as big as people make it out to be.
Too bad ignorance is no excuse
Full disclosure, I didn't watch the video as I don't have that at work.
Isn't there a saying in your field that ignorance of the law is no excuse? If the T worker truly is ignorant of some aspect of her job what else does she conveniently not know about? Or is she operating under her own rules and reacts badly when someone who does know the rules calls her on it?
It's not like this is a new rule. It's not like they don't periodically remind people of it.
I don't know how often they remind workers about it.
But isn't it obvious she didn't know about it? (Unless he was taking videos in places he wasnt supposed to, or was in peoples faces with the camera) and I'm not saying she isn't wrong just because she didn't know the rule. I'm saying this kid is an attention seeking dink. Because of how he acted on the video.
I disagree
Who started it? Who was out of line?
I watched the video, too.
I thought the kid was polite, did not raise his voice, did not threaten, and generally did not act obnoxiously.
What if a T employee started pestering people who were, say, reading the newspaper, or carrying umbrellas, and saying it was forbidden. Don't you think that would warrant some disciplinary action against the employee? Or do you think people should just let that kind of stuff slide?
How to deal with this...
I've been harassed three times by T employees for taking pictures. This has worked every time:
1) pull out cell phone, say you are calling the transit police
2) ask for their ID number
3) pretend to cycle through contacts
I've never had to get to a step four. First time I did it, there wasn't even cell phone service in the tunnels yet.
Waste of time
She's not law enforcement and cannot detain him. So why's he wasting his time arguing with her?
If she touches him or tries to yank away the camera, he has the assault captured on film. If she calls a transit cop who insists he cannot take photos, then we have an issue, but at least the whole incident is still recorded on tape.
So, yes, I do agree that this guy's just making himself look foolish, when the proper thing to do would have been to just ignore the T worker.
Law Enforcment?
She is an Inspector, so I believe she has some legal enforcement capability within the station. Inspectors used to have full arrest powers, but I believe that may have been curtailed a bit but not completely.
Sorta...
Inspectors, Chief Inspectors, and Instructors may issue citations for fare evasion but lack the authority to detain people (i.e. physically preventing them from leaving) or make someone produce valid ID. If someone becomes combative/uncooperative, they must request assistance from the dispatcher and Transit Police.
I like her..
she makes the kids stop bouncing basketballs on the platform. It's annoying and could fall in the pit.
face mask on very cold days
I had just got on a bus, literally swiping my card, when the bus driver rudely demanded I immediately take off he neoprene half face mask I had covering my mouth and nose. This was on probably oldest day of the year, ambient temp. around 0 degrees, wind chill well below 0 F. She had also stopped the bus further away from usual spot people get on. Gave me a really hard time, very arrogant. When I politely asked if it was MBTA policy, she swore that it was. She spent the next 10 minutes until I got off the bus with a self satisfied, smug smirk on her face. Power trip indeed. And I had intended to take the mask off anyway, but she couldn't help herself. Yes, people need to make a stink when bulshit occurs, or they won',t stop engaging in bullshit power trips.
Or …
Or they could just ignore such power trips, especially when the power tripper has no real power to do anything about it.
Demand their badge or ID number
They act like buffoons every time they are collectively caught being jerks. Just ask them for their numbers, and note the route, time, and bus number in your complaint in case they are lying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance
How about this?
How about a flash mob of actual camera flashes in T stations now and then until they get it? It's a little provocative, but if MBTA management can't school their employees, maybe the public can. (Cameras without flashes also welcome)
How about not?
Flash photography and the use of tripods are prohibited, for good reason.
I stand corrected
So.. the same thing, without camera flashes and tripods.
Serious question, though - As a sometime videographer, what if I had to carry my tripod on the T? One of my tripods has a bag, the other is older and does not. I think it probably looks more frightening in the bag because then people can't tell what it is.
No problem carrying it. Just
No problem carrying it. Just don't set it up on a platform.
Flash photography
is NOT banned in the photo policy I linked to -- which surprises me. Camera flashes can temporarily blind a train driver.
What I don't get
Is how there is so much confusion about this policy. It seems like it's pretty simple?
When our fearless leaders
When our fearless leaders equate photography with terrorism, do you expect the obedient citizenry to just blindly disobey?
Our forefathers dealt with this anti camera oppression before.
At Lexington & Concord a little know minuteman named Chuck shouted to the Brits "you can have my camera when you pry it from my cold dead hands". Makes me proud to be an American.
2nd T employee said something important
The T employee in the booth at the end of the video said, "technically they don't want you to take pictures?" Does that mean that while there is no policy barring photographs (in this setting) that T management is sending double messages? To the public they say that they will respect citizens taking photographs in stations. But to staff they provide either disinformation or actually tell staff to harass people taking photographs anyway?
That sounds far fetched and yet it is hard to believe that at this point anyone working for the T and directly dealing with the public would not know what is the policy regarding photography. To me that is the piece in the puzzle that does not fit. How can she not know the policy? Does the T provide no training to staff relating with the public? Photography in stations is not an obscure issue that arises once every 10 years. I would think it the issue would receive some attention while a person is trained for working at a station.
While that sounds a bit far fetched it might not when compared to past shenanigans such as pulling trains and busses out of the schedule as done in the past.
For the record the policy
For the record the policy States that any professional photographer needs a permit. Any touristy or regular person in their travels can take a photo without the need as long as there flash doesn't interfere. This guy identified himself as a photographer so I would classify him in the needs a permit. Also for the record tripods aren't allowed and this guy is fishing for something to show online. Nice try
For the record, you are wrong
For the record, you are wrong.
The distinction is between personal use and commercial use.
Going to plaster your images all over Facebook and Flickr and train buff sites? No problem.
Going to be using those shots in a commercial or on a billboard selling a product? You'll need a permit.
If photography is not allowed
who's getting the pictures of all these perverted T riding carrot snappers and boob grabbers?
t photo
Anthony, you are a commercial photographer in which case you are required to get a permit prior to taking pictures on the MBTA. If you read the policy instead of cherry picking information from it you would have realized this.
???
What was the commercial use he was intending for his awesomely shot footage?
Saul check out his website
Saul check out his website and tell me if he isnt commercial. Again if someone told me they are a photographer im going to assume they are commercial
Commercial use
Commercial use is just that. How one plans to use the images, not who you are and how you make a living.
Steven Spielberg could walk into Park Street with his camera and take some shots for his own personal use, and no permit would be needed.
Get it?
So, you are mistaken, unless you can tell me how Anthony was going to use his footage in a commercial manner.
Saul common sense.. If Steven
Saul common sense.. If Steven Spielberg walked into the t and wanted to take pictures id ask him for a permit. How do you know if someone is going to sell a picture? You don't. You have to assume. If someone says I'm a photographer then I assume they are commercial. If someone is taking pictures for fun the first thing they say is that and not I'm a photographer and nothing else.
Funny you mention common sense
I would say that common sense would dictate that T employees have far better things to do with their time than harass people taking photos, no?
Oh ya they love having to go
Oh ya they love having to go up to people to ask them why they are taking pictures.
They must
Why else would they do something that is such a useless waste of time and contributes nothing to customer service or running the trains safely and on time?
99% sure a train called in
99% sure a train called in someone taking pictures or security dispatched the inspector to inquire what they were taking photos of. I'm also sure the inspector would rather take her train numbers and finish her day without having any incident. If she was having a power trip she would've called for the police. She walked away where this guy came back for more, recorded the whole thing and I have to question his motives for that.
Common sense again, plus reading comprehension
The policy does not say that professional photographers require a permit. They say that commercial photography requires a permit. The MBTA has a right to regulate business activity on the property it controls: It can require you to get a permit to setup a shoe shine stand, to sell hot dogs, or to take wedding portraits. It does not have a right to regulate photography that is not a business activity, i.e, taking of pictures, whether by an amateur or a professional photographer.
Yes they do.
Yes they do.
Google him. His work is for
Google him. His work is for sale.
Selling imges does not equal commerical photography
There's plenty of case law on this. For example, a photojournalist who receives royalties for photos that are published in a newspaper is not a commercial photographer.
Why did she refuse to read the policy?
A lot of excess hyperbole about power trips and dinkish behavior IMO.
If you actually watch the vid, it's pretty clear that she had all the power that was needed to move this encounter from contentious to informed and courteous simply by taking the kid up on his offer to read the damn policy he kept repeatedly offering to her. She wasted an opportunity to actually learn what the policy states, and to then maybe say something like "...that's news to me, I'll talk with my boss about this and get it straightened out...thanks" and then walk away after completely defusing a situation she created in error.
The lack of interest in learning more information about or correcting one's assumptions or beliefs more often than not lies at the heart of almost all avoidable conflict--presented in an insistent or self-righteous manner or not.