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Municipal musical chairs
By adamg on Wed, 07/09/2008 - 12:10pm
The Herald reports South Boston state Sen. Jack Hart is proposing moving the Aquarium to Southie, City Hall to the Aquarium site and, um, something to City Hall Plaza (ooh, I know, I know: Luxury apartments!).
Of course, the same exact argument made against moving City Hall to South Boston (lack of real mass transit, unless you consider the Silver Line real mass transit) would apply to the Aquarium.
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Comments
Of course, the real problem
Of course, the real problem here is that we're too cheap to pay for our public facilities. In fact, people in this town carp when other people pay for public facilities like boat houses. If the City of Boston needs a new City Hall, it ought to pony up the cash (or pass a bond measure) and pay for one. It's not that hard. And it would eliminate the need to sell off invaluable public space for the benefit of the wealthy.
You could move to a temporary facility, and rebuild on the current footprint. Or you could build the new City Hall adjacent to the old one, on the desolate windswept plaza, and then turn the old site into a genuinely welcoming public space, perhaps one melding seemlessly into Faneuil/Quincy.
We'll continue to see hare-brained schemes so long as we remain stuck with a dysfunctional building, and remain unwilling to pay for the replacement ourselves.
I think this idea is a bit
I think this idea is a bit crazy but I feel compelled to note, as a long time Blue Line rider, that the Aquarium is indeed served by real mass transit -- the brand new (and aptly named) Aquarium station is steps from the Aquarium and not (thank god) on the silver line. Aquarium Station is 1 stop (and a 2 minute walk) from State St. Station and 2 Stops from Govt Center. Unless you live on the Blue Line, I guess you never know where it goes -- but it is the shortest and quickest line in town for Eastie, Revere and Winthrop residents!
You're right
The current Aquarium has a Blue Line stop right there. The proposed new Aquarium, however, would not. So City Hall would still have mass transit (albeit not as convenient as the current setup, where you basically have three subway lines within a block or so), but the new Aquarium would have the Silver Line.
You'd think
The Aquarium would jump at the chance to relocate to the ass end of nowhere. Foot traffic is so passe!
They could call it the Nowherium.
Aquarium wanted to move to the Charlestown Navy Yard
in the 1980s, but did not have the money to execute that move.
Knowing the MBTA...
If this happens, it probably will take the MBTA about 10 years to notice this switch and fail to rename the Aquarium T stop, and thousands of confused tourists will exit the subway, looking for the Aquarium, and inadvertantly head straight into City Hall.
The tourists' only redemption would be that they will indeed see several sharks.
There's an easy solution.
There's an easy solution. Just have the mayor record public service announcements, and broadcast them on the Blue Line trains. I'm sure his soothing voice will clear things up for the tourists...
Hell no! Put mumbles in a
Hell no!
Put mumbles in a trailer as they tear down the current monstrosity and build something appropriate of a world class city. Put some grass in while your at it.
WOOO
City Council Hearings in IMAX!
Heh...
Perfect solution.
Since politicians are often so one-dimensional, they could hand out the Imax 3-D glasses and enhance the meetings.
I see a major motion picture in all this
Strap a camera to his head and we could get "When Chuck Turner Attacks!," complete with all the nausea I normally associate with both shaky camerawork and politics.
If this was a serious
If this was a serious proposal, don't you think Jack Hart would have picked up the phone and talked to the people at the Aquarium before making it public? There's something goingon here in the background that we dont' know about.
Jack Hart's not stupid. He
Jack Hart's not stupid. He knew perfectly well that the Acquarium's reaction would be, "Not only no, but hell no." Why should they abandon their nice downtown location, accessible by mass transit and tourist trolleys, and incur the expense of hundreds of millions necessary to build a new facility?
The whole point of this proposal was to pour cold water on the idea of moving City Hall to South Boston. Hart understood that the more proposals there are out there, bobbing in the waves, the less likely the mayor is to land his crazy scheme. So he floated it to the Herald, which went for the notion, hook, line and sinker. And now that he's muddied the waters, we can expect the mayor's proposal to drift aimlessly.
No, wait
I've got it. BC's new dorm moves to the main campus in exchange for City Hall moving to their Chestnut Hill tower, and then the Aquarium moves to Nowherium, and they build a 1175 foot tower on City Hall Plaza, and the Armenian Genocide Memorial gets waterfront property!
Yeah but doesnt it make
Yeah but doesnt it make South Boston look kind of bad when the first thing out of peoples mouths is "OMG South Boston, but South Boston is sooooo unaccesible, it would die there." Thats the last thing people want you to say about their neighborhood when home prices are crashing all around us.
Inaccessible
Okay... so they could build it near that South Boston T stop. Which one is that again?
It doesn't make South Boston look bad to say it's out of the way and inaccessible by transport. It's just the truth. People who live in South Boston must have other reasons to live there.
You can't get to South Boston on a train, and it's not on the way to anywhere from anywhere. It's a cul-de-sac. You can't even easily get from the part people live in - the part that's a neighborhood - to the putative Nowherium location, on a pier by the drydock and fish factories. Nobody lives anywhere close to that.
And here I thought the good
And here I thought the good people of Southie wanted to be left alone by the rest of the world...
South Boston transit
Andrew and Broadway stations are both in South Boston. Not the part of Southie we're discussing here, but Southie nevertheless.
South Boston has pretty frequent bus service from four different routes (7, 9, 10, and 11), connecting to South Station and downtown Boston and Copley Square.
The Silver Line from South Station runs at about the same frequency as a subway line. It's a free underground transfer from the Red Line.
So what is so inaccessible about Southie again?
So you think people are
So you think people are going to go into the city, and then take a bus to get to an aquarium? Think Rapid Transit.
Why not?
Let me say up front that I'm not in favor of moving the Aquarium. But why exactly would people have a problem with transferring from one underground transit line to another at South Station?
Because it's still a bus
Sure, it has cool stations, but they still somehow manage to do bussy things, like not come for eons, then all come at once.
My experience with the
My experience with the Waterfront part of the Silver Line has been pretty positive overall. The problem with it is more in the Roxbury part where it shares the road, imo.
I don't think moving the aquarium there is such a bad idea in the abstract. If you don't put attractions like that there, then no one will go. The ICA seems to be doing pretty well.
But the commentator who noted the real motive behind Jack Hart's proposal is to deflate any chance of City Hall moving to Southie is dead on.
You forgot to add "...then
You forgot to add "...then leave the station at an absolute crawl on a teeth-chattering ride down the tunnel before making thirty left turns to enter the Ted Williams Tunnel."
Then there's the whole problem of the buses only able to hold about 100 people (and it's almost impossible to squeeze by a single standee), while a two car Green Line train can haul about 350, with plenty of room to move around most of the time.
Purely as devil's advocate,
Purely as devil's advocate, people do all the time to get to the Children's Museum and the airport.
I commute on the commuter rail and take the Silver Line out to my office in the WTC. The Silver Lane absolutely could not handle the influx of passengers moving the aquarium to the Seaport would cause. As others have noted, it is a bus. It runs 10 minutes late, then 4 show up. There is already the issue of luggage during rush hour on the airport route. The routes run above ground in traffic and are constantly thrown off schedule. I have no fear this would ever actually happen, but moving the aquarium to Southie is a bad idea in terms of public transportation.
I take the blue line to the
I take the blue line to the airport, and dont take mass transit to get to the Childrens Museusm...
Well that settles that then.
Well that settles that then. So goes anon, so goes the city.
The point was I can get to
The point was I can get to the airport by the same blue line that you can use to get to the Aquarium. The previous poster was writing that with the thought that the airport was serviced by the silver line, which it is, but its also serviced by a real train as well.
We get off at South Station
We get off at South Station & walk across the bridge to go to the Children's Museum.
Sophism
The Silver Li(n)e isn't a train, and doesn't even go to the part of Southie where people live. And the two red line stations you cite are at the far corners of Southie, on the mainland, not the peninsula. From E Street out, no part of the South Boston peninsula is within a half-mile of a train.
So that's what's inaccessible about Southie. But I think you already knew that.
Ha Ha, 100% agree with
Ha Ha, 100% agree with Gareth. Have you ever heard of anyone living in Southie for its "T accessibility?" Everyone I know in Southie has a car and drives everywhere. The Red Line goes to the part of Southie that you never need to go to.
The Silver Line is a very poor excuse for transit, and it would be made even worse if taxed by another attraction out there.
pegged
I think you have it pegged.
If you were on the board of trustees for the New England Aquarium, would you relocate from the most desirable spot in the city, near all of the downtown tourist attractions? No way, not unless that was about to change and no one is proposing we relocate Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market.
This is not about the Aquarium or about transportation in South Boston. It's about getting a new city hall, whether we need it or not, and its about doing it in a way that some private citizens benefit greatly (at your expense.)
Opportunists look at the open expanse of city hall plaza (publicly owned land) and see $$$$ in their pockets.
Menino sees a new city hall with his name on a plaque on the front. Taxpayers wonder how the city will maintain essential safety, security and transportation services as our country dips into a recession fueled by deficit financing a war of choice, resulting inflation, and a credit problem caused by the deregulation of free market ideologues who have f*cked up everything they touched. Please, say no to four more years.
Someone wanted to know where the subway stops in South Boston:
And so
And so you gave us this map? That's a bus map. Have you ever been to Boston?
No, it's not the bus map, it's the system map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/system_map/
I live in Boston and have done for 25 years, so yes I have been to Boston.
You might want to read a little closer before you cop an attitude. All you had to do is look it up... or you can keep posting your ill-informed Smart Alec pablum and we'll continue to ask: How's the view from there Gareth?
Why's
Why's that guy got his head stuck in you? I don't get it.
age restriction
Gareth I'm not sure kids under 15 are supposed to post here. Does that leave you out?
Poor anonymous
You make a poor argument, use a bad example, and then you have to post juvenile clip art to insult people. Poor anonymous.
insulted? sorry gareth
Let's start with where you called another blogger "asinine." Full Stop Do you consider that insulting or just a friendly swipe?
Then, have another look at the map and make the same statement: And so you gave us this map? That's a bus map. Have you ever been to Boston? You seem intent on asserting your superior insider knowledge and in the process discredit the guy who posted the map... but you were wrong: it's not the bus map it's the system map. You can see the red line stops on it, which provides the answer to the question you asked earlier in the thread.
So Gareth, when are you going to acknowledge, you were wrong about both? It's your choice, but if you don't than it's reasonable for me to conclude that you prefer to have you head up your arse.
No, cupcake, I'm not insulted
I just feel sorry for you. Poor, poor anonymous. A bad argument, a bad example, and still wittering on.
Visit South Boston sometime. You might like it. But it's far from the subway - ask anybody who's been there.
cupcake??? no, you got the wrong idea
Gareth likes it like that.
Enough
The insult room is down the hall. Please stop cluttering up discussions with pointless name calling.
I suggest mass-deleting all of the insulting comments
so that they aren't around for people to find later. The graphics, too.
i hear...
... "City Haul" will be moving all the furniture...(zing!)
They actually did, in a way...
At City Hall Plaza: impromptu living room.
It would be devastating for
It would be devastating for the Aquarium financially to be taken off the beaten path, they have the best location in the city for an aquarium already. The one thing they could use is a parking situation like the Science Musuem has where parking doesnt cost a weeks pay for a 4 hour trip.
I know the pros for the city, but lets look at the pros and cons from the point of view of the aquairum.
Pros:
New Facility, most likely would be state of the art
Maybe a decent parking situation
Cons:
It would cost a fortune to recreate what they already have
They would most likely have to build things differently due to new regulations
They get taken off of the MBTA subway system
They get taken away from the foot traffic
They get taken off as a point on the trolley tours
Southie would gain from it but the visitor numbers would drop, and I wouldnt be suprised if they saw a high turn over in employees over the first five years as they find it more and more taxing to get to work daily.
You're right about parking, but...
...the Aquarium as it is has no place to build its own garage, unless they want to sacrifice their open-air plaza. They don't own the Harbor Garage next door, so have no pull with price of parking.
The only way they'd move is if the city (ie. our tax dollars) offered them a hefty ransom.
But seriously, why do politicians feel the need to move City Hall? Yeah, it's an eyesore, and an architectural nightmare, but its function isn't to be beautiful, its function is to conduct local government.
I'd much rather look at an abhorrent concrete structure as I exit Gov't Ctr. than pay up the wazoo for a new set of buildings elsewhere. Bad decisions can be made equally at Scollay Square as on Central Wharf.
You've obviously never done
You've obviously never done business insideCity Hall. Finding an office inside that building is like playing a video game - it takes multiple tries to get to your destination. Just a few years ago there was a feature article about the controversy over the building. When they interviewed one of the architects and asked him about the complaints about the layout of the building, he said "We wanted it to be like a maze..." There you go.
functional is not the opposite of beautiful
Think of Cambridge City Hall or Arlington Town Hall. Functional and attractive buildings that the citizens of Cambridge and Arlington are proud to own. Cambridge's has a nice front lawn, too, and Arlington's has a small park and reflecting pool next door.
I dont like the Cambridge
I dont like the Cambridge City Hall its too uppity, it looks like it went to Harvard for 50 years to get 5 PHD's.
Okay...
Anon, you're right; I haven't done business inside City Hall. So I can't speak for the validity of the "maze" you suggest. However, just to rebut your assertion, I can attest to the fact of how easy it is to get lost in any facility of which one is not familiar.
But that's not the point I was going for. My point was to emphasize the fact that my life, and hopefully the lives of others, is not ruined by walking through City Hall Plaza and seeing the monster that is City Hall.
Furthermore, the time and money it would take to demolish City Hall, the Aquarium, and whatever other facility, then rebuild them, just seems foolish, especially during a recession.
If we're going to go with,
If we're going to go with, "Does it ruin your life?" as our test, not many public improvements are worth pursuing. Fortunately, there are other standards. I'd suggest you spend some time in City Hall; you will quickly discover that it is not, in point of fact, like other buildings. Inefficiency is designed into its structure; the architect had the conscious aim of forcing its occupants and users to circulate through the building in counterintuitive ways.
What that means, in practical terms, is that it's not just an eyesore. It's a boondoggle. You and I pay taxes. The money goes to public servants. And they work far less efficiently than they otherwise might because they occupy a structure purpose-built to prevent smooth movement. It's also openly hostile to visitors - to those who, as you put it, are not familiar with the building. I happen to think municipal office buildings should be as open and welcoming as possible. It's difficult enough for most citizens to get the sort of service they deserve - why throw (literal) obstacles in their path?
And yes, we're facing a recession. But that's precisely when public construction projects make the most sense. They serve to stimulate the economy. They face less competition for labor and materials from the languishing private construction sector. And they can prime the pump for the expansion that will follow, by improving the quality of our public infrastructure. Take a stroll around the city sometime. The old Boston City Hospital building was put up by the PWA during the Great Depression. So, for that matter, was the John W McCormack Post Office, which dwarfs in size the proposed City Hall.
I happen to think that erecting a City Hall worthy of this city is a splendid idea. It's just that I also think that pouring money and effort into creating a worthy building, and then putting it in an accessible and remote location, serves to defeat the purpose. Public buildings belong at the center of our city; the rich can live elsewhere.
I just kind of love the fact
I just kind of love the fact that the employees at city hall have to run around in circles to get around the building. It must be hell for all those guys stringing the red tape all over the place.
South Boston Aquarium - we've done that before
South Boston once before had an aquarium, near Castle Island. Robert Lowell's poem For the Union Dead prominently mentions its ruins.
That's a nice article. There
That's a nice article. There was also supposed to be a parkway between Franklin Park and the South Boston Marine Park, which would have finished the Emerald Necklace. They built Columbia Rd., but didn't make it a parkway.
i didn't notice whether
i didn't notice whether lowell covered the south boston transportation situation. did he get down with the silver line?
Subway
No, he took the subway, because it's soo cloose.