City Councilors Andrea Campbell (Dorchester) and Kim Janey (Roxbury) want to look at ways to increase black and Latino enrollment at the city's three exam schools - including possibly replacing scores from the ISEE exam now used to help determine entrance with results from MCAS tests.
Campbell - who herself went to Boston Latin School - and Janey say the ISEE is fundamentally unfair to minority students because it includes topics not taught in Boston grades before kids take the test for seventh-grade enrollment, including algebra, which means kids whose parents pay for expensive prep classes are better prepared. BPS does offer its own free prep classes, but has had problems enrolling minority students for them.
In their formal request for a hearing on the issue, which the council will consider on Wednesday, the two councilors say that while BPS as a whole is 75% black and Latino, only 40% of the three exam schools are - a rate that drops to 20% at Boston Latin School.
In addition to ISEE, the councilors say they also want to look at grading differences between BPS and local private schools, which might also hurt minority applicants to the exam schools.
The councils regular Wednesday meeting begins at noon in its fifth-floor chambers in City Hall.
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Comments
The standard reminder
By Parkwayne
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 7:33pm
BPS demographics do not match the city demographics either.
"Overall, children in Boston are 25% White, 30.8% Hispanic, 30% Black/African-American, 7.5% Asian /Pacific Islander, and 6.7% other."
http://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/ff4bf0fa-...
Of course the exam schools should try to support more students from poor/disadvantaged households and increase Black and Latino enrollment but the constant use of the BPS stats is a purposely skewed way to frame the debate.
IMO.
It's not skewed it IS the
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 6:33am
It's not skewed it IS the debate. Families with means make a choice to purposely put nothing into the system, then at the end want to take a seat that many consider the most valuable fruit of that system.
We can't have a successful school system and a segregated one. It's one or the other. If you weren't part of BPS before exam school time you should be ineligible to apply.
...and I did not know the exam had content beyond the standards. That's crazy.
Put nothing into the system?
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 9:05am
You mean other than the taxes which fund the system?
You may also be surprised to learn that BLS funds most of its additional programming through alumni fundraising. I suppose that money should also just be dispersed to all the schools?
In addition, as been discussed on this board ad nauseam, if all these kids who parachute into to BPS for exam schools were to opt into the school earlier, we'd actually have a serious BPS budget problem which would make the current issues look minor.
If say, 10k of the 20k kids who opt out of BPS were to opt in to the system, that's an increase in headcount of 20% but of course would not generate any more inflow to the city budget so the schools would now need $200m more in annual budget to maintain current per student funding.
Do you think the city has another $200m/year for funding BPS?
They Goddamn better have part of that
By Will LaTulippe
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:33pm
After putting 8 PM meters on Harvard Ave.
'If you weren't part of BPS
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 9:24am
'If you weren't part of BPS before exam school time you should be ineligible to apply. "
Does paying property taxes make you a part ?
Nonsense... any child who is
By Lmo
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:15am
Nonsense... any child who is a resident of Boston should be able to attend BPS.
Facts and stuff
By MiaVia
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 8:28am
There absolutely is a lot of merit to looking at these questions, and the issues identified are real.
But it undermines the discussion and the conclusions if the facts are not accurate and complete.
So let's also talk about a big part of the reason why students of color are not at the exam schools - 3500 students of color choose the Metco program. There are more high school students in Metco than at BLS and BLA combined. (btw Metco is a terrific program, both for academic and social reasons. It's a great alternative for a lot of students. It might be worth looking at what could be improved in the BLS and BLA academic and extracurricular programs to make them more appealing to students of color.)
And charter schools are also never mentioned, when they are clearly chosen over the exam schools by some students of color. (Not coincidentally, charter schools actually know how to get new schools built in Boston.)
Anyone looking only at BLS stats and then comparing them to the BPS student population (rather than the city) is twisting the facts, and just isn't credible.
Facts and stuff
By MiaVia
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 8:56am
There absolutely is a lot of merit to looking at these questions, and the issues identified are real.
But it undermines the discussion and the conclusions if the facts are not accurate and complete.
So let's also talk about a big part of the reason why students of color are not at the exam schools - 3500 students of color choose the Metco program. There are more Boston high school students in Metco than ALL of the HS students at BLS and BLA combined, and all of the Metco students are students of color. (btw Metco is a terrific program, both for academic and social reasons. It's a great alternative for a lot of students, life-changing for many. It might be worth looking at what could be improved in the BLS and BLA academic and extracurricular programs to make them more appealing to students of color, and that would likely improve things for everyone.)
And charter schools are also never mentioned, when they are clearly chosen over the exam schools by some students of color. (Not coincidentally, charter schools actually know how to get new schools built in Boston.)
Families of color can choose Metco and charters, and they are. But there's not one word about that in any of the analysis or discussion.
Anyone presenting (a) BLS-only stats versus (b) the BPS student population (rather than the city) is twisting the facts, and just isn't credible.
Erm...
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:45am
This is factually incorrect. Flat out. It is certainly true that a significant majority of METCO students are young people of color, but it is not all.
That's my critique. The rest of your post is bang on.
Dude
By Anonymous1
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 1:01pm
Metco is a program for students of color. They are all of color.
Race Percent Count
African American 73.0% 2,421
Asian 2.8% 93
Hispanic 18.6% 617
Multi-Race 4.2% 140
Other 1.4% 46
Total 100% 3,317
Definitions I guess
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 1:33pm
http://www.doe.mass.edu/metco/faq.html?section=all
Race Percent Count
African American 73.0% 2,421
Asian 2.8% 93
Hispanic 18.6% 617
Multi-Race 4.2% 140
Other 1.4% 46
Total 100% 3,317
Anecdotally, I've met couples where one partner is a Latino of European background and their kids certainly looked like standard issue white Parkway kids but they qualified for and used Metco to go to school in a leafier suburb. I think that's rare-ish though.
I'm not the right person to declare what 'of color' means.
Why would anyone enroll in the BPS prep class
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 7:41pm
Why would anyone expect a school system which could not prepare their kids for the exam after having them 180 days a year to be able to run a prep class that would make up for their institutional failure for the previous six grades.
Test prep = learning how to take tests
By MiaVia
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 8:56am
Only a little of the test prep is learning content. Most of the test prep is reviewing content and learning the test format, getting comfortable with it. Learning how to take tests is a skill that can be learned (when and whether to guess, and such).
ISEE definitely does test material that is not covered in the BPS 5th grade curriculum.
I just read that the BPs
By Carmella
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:52am
I just read that the BPs offers test prep courses for free but has problems enrolling minority students. I don’t understand what this means. Are minority students being discouraged or barred from attending these free classes? If so, that’s a big problem.
The opposite I think
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:17am
They offer the classes but the kids don't show up.
There is also a chicken/egg issue with the exam schools, especially BLS - some black/Latino parents don't think it's a good fit for their kids so don't prioritize trying to get their kids in and so they don't take advantage of programs to try to improve their opportunities to get their kids into the schools. So fewer black and Latino kids attend the school and it keeps its reputation as a school for white and Asian kids.
Never heard this mentioned
By Not Logged in Today
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 7:47pm
You know what, the private schools don't teach the ISEE math until right before the test is given. Only kids who get extra help outside of school (from their parents or test prep) will have seen the math that the ISEE tests. Why basically none of the schools - public or private - teach this, knowing that the ISEE will include it, is beyond me.
That's not great reasoning.
By baustin
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 7:47pm
That's not great reasoning. They should fix the ISEE exam instead of using MCAS, which was not designed to be accurate or valid for this proposed use. If they use MCAS for something it's not designed to do, they'll be in the same hot water as those states that tried to use achievement tests and value-added models for teacher evaluation. Fix the broken test, don't be lazy and just try to use the some other test.
Not their test
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:19am
BPS doesn't own the ISEE. It's owned by the ERB. BPS can do nothing about its content.
ISEE is not a MA exam
By KellyJMF
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:44am
The ISEE is a national exam similar to the SAT and not under MA control. It's also used by private schools so they don't have to create and administer their own test.
is fundamentally unfair to
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 7:59pm
So why not just teach those courses to BPS students earlier? Oh, but it's much easier to play the race card and claim "unfair" instead of taking action that will actually improve education for everyone.
No one does that
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:57am
VERY few schools teach algebra before 7th grade. I went to a private school the prodigious Roxbury Latin and took PRE ALGEBRA in 7th grade...that was 2006 I very much doubt curriculums nationwide have accelerated that much that quickly
You cannot go by course description
By Harold
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:53pm
I went to BLS from 62 to 68. We had Arithmetic in Grades 7 and 8. Algebra I in 9, Geometry in 10, Algebra 2 and Analysis in 11, calculus in 12.
What was called "Arithmetic" in grade 8 in 1963-4 was a lot harder than what passes for Algebra 1 nowadays anywhere, including BLS (have been a parent of recent BLS grad) and what is called Algebra 2 now is essentially the same as what we called Algebra 1 back in the day.
So the long and the short of it is, what passes for Algebra 1 and pre-Algebra in today's world is Arithmetic with a calculator.
I was skeptical until I read
By mg
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 8:22pm
that the exam covers subjects not taught in BPS schools before it's given. It's outrageous for an exam to enter a public school to go beyond the public school curriculum. Yes, the exam schools should be aimed at students capable of doing advanced work, but they should not be biased against kids who haven't had a chance to cover topics outside those taught in their schools.
If anyone wants
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 8:50pm
more underrepresented minority enrollment in the exam schools, then work with those underrepresented minorities to ensure that they are able to compete with others who may have more opportunity for outside tutoring geared toward scoring well on the ISEE. Play with the numbers all you want and come up with different ideas of who should be admitted but until every child in this city get equal opportunity to succeed, nothing will change. If some minorities are underrepresented in the exam schools, then go into their elementary schools and give them extra tutoring, reduce class sizes so they get more attention in the classroom, extend school hours so they have more time to learn and do homework with someone around to help them. There are so many college students in Boston. Can't BPS use them to help tutor? That would be a win-win. The kids get more academic help and the college students can put it on their resume. Why are BPS and the Mayor and the City Council not really doing anything constructive to help minority students if that's what they really want to do? They have the ability and the means but it seems like it's too much work for them so they'll just sit back and complain instead of truly helping minority children succeed. (sorry. rant over. but i'm sick of hearing this issue repeated every year and NOTHING is done to make a difference by those who have the ability to make REAL change happen)
I’ll give you a counterpoint
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 8:57pm
Why isn’t algebra taught in the BPS before seventh grade?
I’m supportive of Latin admissions going by MCAS scores, as long as the BPS gives a chance for non-BPS kids to take the MCAS. I think every student in the Commonwealth should have to sit the same test to get a true feel for how well the kids are doing, anyway.
That's a separate issue
By mg
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 9:17pm
If you think BPS should teach algebra before 7th grade, go lobby for that. But until they do, any test for entrance to a BPS exam school should only cover what is on the curriculum.
Want to test math aptitude? There are ways to test for the ability to use what they already know creatively to solve new problems. Being good at math has to do with understanding concepts and being able to solve problems of a type you haven't seen before. It's not measured by how much you've been taught, but how well you can use what you've been taught.
Speaking as someone who uses math professionally.
Won’t the white kids just get MCAS tutors?
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 9:39pm
However you try to rig admissions it won’t work.
That's some racist BS
By anon
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 11:36pm
I was a white kid who tested into BLA in the early 80's.
I was a BPS student with no tutoring.
I don't know how the testing is today but to claim white students will just get tutors is unmitigated racist bullshit.
Kids with parents that have the means, regardless of race, have more options.
I'm all for leveling the playing field honestly. Race is part of it but painting all the white kids as being able to afford tutoring is nonsense.
Very anecdotal
By Parkwayne
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 9:00am
My kid goes to BLS and I don't think most of his classmates whose parents I know did any tutoring to get in. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think the majority of BLS enrollees are there due to tutoring. We certainly didn't get any tutoring.
There are myriad advantages which a white middle class kid has over their peers from an average BPS school in Roxbury/Mattapan but I think tutoring is overly focused on.
To flip it around, I supposed you could make the argument that the kids who are getting the tutoring to get into the school are the problem - they are getting extra assistance without which they might not make it into the exam schools, assistance their minority counterparts might not have. I have no good idea how to fix that issue though.
ISEE
By Sixthgradedad
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:17pm
I'm a parent of a sixth grader in a downtown neighborhood and I am unaware of any Charlestown, beacon Hill, south end or back Bay teammate or classmate who is not in heavy test prep mode. One big flaw no one mentions is that BPS administers a test to 5th graders and those who score high get a two week summer camp ISEE prep at BLS.
80s Boston kids vs. 2010s Boston white kids
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:00am
Boston white kids in the 1980s were much more financially similar to their POC peers than white kids who grow up in Boston nowadays. Surely you can attest to that. Prep etc. in the 1980s was nothing like today and there were thousands and thousands more lower-income white children. BLS was also more black/hispanic back then as well.
Early 70s BLS vs 2010s BLS
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:58pm
Interesting point. I went to BLS in the early 70s and there were far more African American students than there appear to be now. It appeared to be a very integrated school. I do not have children so I have not kept up, but is there a reason there were more black kids back then, and in the pre-busing era to boot? I would argue that it isn't that institutionalized racism has gotten worse since then, but rather that the system designed to rectify such problems only screwed them up further.
Yep
By adamg
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 4:51pm
After 1974, BPS included race as one of the criteria for deciding who got into BLS. A white father whose daughter didn't get into BLS sued and won, and race stopped being one of the criteria.
But let's also talk for a moment about structural racism:
My daughter took that free ISEE prep class offered by - and at - BLS. I guess it worked - she got in. Yay, free prep classes.
But the thing is, we knew this prep class existed. Why? She went to a sort of BLS-prep elementary school (the Kilmer in West Roxbury) and so they told us about it and we signed her up.
But one of the things that came out during the whole Black at BLS thing a couple years ago was that Boston Latin School's fundraising arm (yes, of course, BLS has a fundraising arm) was paying for an administrator whose job included letting kids and parents know about the prep class - only he wasn't going to any schools in minority neighbors because who the fuck knows why. So our daughter benefited from extra help because we were told about it, but thousands of parents a couple miles away didn't even know it existed.
Even though it obviously didn't directly affect us (except by shrinking the potential competition, I guess), that really pissed me off, and I'm glad that one of the things that came out of the Black at BLS affair was a commitment to recruiting more kids into the prep classes. That is, at least, a start.
Adam, your post is somewhat incorrect/misleading
By Jeff F
Wed, 10/17/2018 - 10:22am
That sports-coach cum test-prep advocate wasn't just bypassing minority neighborhoods - he hadn't promoted the test anywhere other than literally a couple schools. All the promotion was being done by in-the-know members of the community (typically parents with older kids already in the exam schools).
I know this because I was a member of both the Parent Council and School Site Council of my daughter's k-6 and middle schools, and we had to reach out (more than a couple times, I believe) to get hard info on the test-prep program to pass along to our school families.
One of the things the BLS community did (shortly after my daughter started there), was to recommit to getting info about ISEE test-prep out to all Boston schools, with particular attention to those that had low interest/enrollment (aka a lot of those in 'minority' neighborhoods). This was well before the Black@BLS and Mooney-Teta mishigas.
Very true
By Sally
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:23pm
At least according to my memory. I don’t remember the kind of huge dominance of West Roxbury kids that there are today (20%+). Tons of kids from South Boston, Charlestown, Roslindale, etc. and yes—plenty of black and Hispanic kids.
As a child of the 1980s
By Waquiot
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:20pm
When I was attending the best of Boston's all-male Catholic high schools, Latin had the reputation of being heavily tilted towards West Roxbury.
It would be a hoot to see how the class of 1950 was. I bet (I write euphemistically) kids growing up close to Blue Hill Ave were overrepresented.
Another Counterpoint
By John Costello
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 9:02pm
I went to a Catholic Grammar school where the math curriculum was designed to make you the best darnn cashier a Dollar Store or Gas Station clerk that your three decker living ass could be. Also, 1/6th of the day was spent covering magic and spells, sorry Religious Education.
My test prep for Latin was one day of the teachers (Thank you Mrs. Frain, Ms. Whelan, and Ms. Benjamin) sneaking around the principal to gives us some pointers for the test on the day before the test. That's it. That was test prep.
The math taught at BPS was far and beyond what I was doing when I got there and what the Archdiocese School taught. I got killed while others succeeded. I got 3 Fs in 7th grade math. I then studied and passed 7th grade math. I also ended up getting a pile of college credits and some more mediocre grades along the way. I made it through even though there was a 40% attrition rate from my entering class. It was called using the Hard F'ing Work System. That is what gets you through Latin, whether you are white, purple, or magenta.
The point I am trying to make is that they are looking for smart people, not just those who memorize for the test.
Don't dilute the best and brightest (and I am not using the great David Halberstam ironic title here). Keep standards, Keep them high. Those who want to succeed will.
Not even second best
By Sock_Puppet
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 9:28pm
The Boston area's best and brightest don't go to the forty-sixth best public high school inside 495. The school isn't as good as area suburban high schools, let alone competitive with area private schools. They're doing the same thing they did when you were a kid (e.g. memorize textbook factoids and spit them back on tests), but meanwhile other schools have improved greatly. In a way it's excellent the applicants all take the ISEE, because that can open up scholarship opportunities at private schools for kids who score well.
According to Boston Magazine's metrics
By Waquiot
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 10:25pm
And they do seem to weigh class size and faculty/student ratio high. Of course, for those of us who want their kids to do well in the MCAS and SAT, Latin (and Latin Academy) seem to be very sure shots, using the chart in they provide.
Think about it for a minute
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:27am
The exam schools are the only schools on the list that test kids before they let them in. They've already selected for higher scores at entry. The school doesn't need to do anything at all for the kids to have higher scores at exit.
Thank You
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:02am
This is like when people are amazed at private school kids even though the teachers don't even have educational degrees. You simply take the richest and brightest kids from any given area and the scores will be good because you already made sure of that. Its not a secret.
If you look at the top 20 schools in test scores...
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 1:55pm
How they are ranked is very different form the test results when you get out of the top 10. The Boston exam schools look to be punished. In fact for MCAS? For Reading and Math? The Exam Schools rank first, second and fourth against all the other schools... Latin School is ranked first in all three MCAS, First in Reading/Writing, Second in SAT Math and tenth in Advanced Placement Proficient. How are they ranked 46th on this list?
These are all the schools that ranked in the top 20 in one of the test categories. (There are more than 20, I included the top 20 MCAS, SATs, and AP).
Dover-Sherborn Regional High School 1
Concord-Carlisle High School 2
Wayland High School 3
Weston High School 4
Manchester Essex Regional High School 5
Newton South High School 6
Sharon High School 7
The Bromfield School 8
Lexington High School 9
Acton-Boxborough Regional High School 10
Wellesley High School 12
Westborough High School 13
Westford Academy 14
Westwood High School 15
Winchester High School 16
Brookline High School 17
Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School 18
Hopkinton High School 19
Hamilton-Wenham Regional High School 21
Newton North High School 22
Hingham High School 23
Needham High School 25
Ashland High School 26
Norwell High School 27
Pentucket Regional High school 30
Swampscott High School 31
Georgetown Middle/High School 32
Holliston High School 33
Masconomet Regional High School 34
Arlington High School 36
Chelmsford High School 38
Lynnfield High School 40
Belmont High School 42
Boston Latin School 46
Scituate High School 54
Boston Latin Academy 73
West Bridgewater Middle-Senior High School 77
John D. O'Bryant School of Mathematics and Science 95
If you do a ranking just summary of rankings on test scores, you get this instead...
Dover-Sherborn Regional High School 1
Westford Academy 14
Boston Latin School 46
Lexington High School 9
The Bromfield School 8
Concord-Carlisle High School 2
Acton-Boxborough Regional High School 10
Wayland High School 3
Wellesley High School 12
Westwood High School 15
Winchester High School 16
Manchester Essex Regional High School 5
Belmont High School 42
Hingham High School 23
Hopkinton High School 19
Sharon High School 7
Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School 18
Needham High School 25
Westborough High School 13
Holliston High School 33
Norwell High School 27
Newton South High School 6
Boston Magazine?
By John Costello
Mon, 10/15/2018 - 11:35pm
That is like only using Das Kapital quotes on your term paper on Capitalism. The truth may be a little skewed in their research.
Boston Magazine exists to tell the people in those towns how great they are and isn't great not to be unwashed. How do you make their Best of Boston list? You advertise with them, then you are THE BEST!
A lot of people thing Prince William is good looking. I'd be good looking as hell if I didn't have to work for anything in my life too. It is kind of the same with this list. You don't have to work hard, if you've already got it.
You can skew any numbers to the way you want to make it work for you. All I know is that Latin gives a lot of people the chance to move up and thrive, but only if you do the work.
Sacred cow
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:37am
The numbers are there if you're interested. The school board probably is.
It's a bit of a sacred cow locally, latin school. World-famous all over Boston. Back in the day it compared well with schools outside Boston. Now it doesn't. It's just a run of the mill public high school, plus Latin and delusions of grandeur. I think sacred cows make good hamburger.
Public high schools all across the country give a lot of people the chance to move up and thrive. Boston's exam schools appear to do a better job of it than the other high schools in the city. But then they select for the kids who are already moving up and thriving in fifth and sixth grades.
Keep Being Mediocre
By John Costello
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 10:52am
And see what you get. You can always move to Buffalo if you want to just get by. Your bias against those who strive for something better is a bitter take.
Thanks Dad
By Jay
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 11:04am
Why would I move to Buffalo if I could move to Florida or Vegas though
Thanks for your concern
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 12:35pm
I have done well. It's part of why I'm here. Neither BLS nor Buffalo had anything to do with it.
My concern is the mediocrity of our city's flagship public school. It's a mediocrity everybody swears is great. I think Boston deserves better. You don't. You are in the majority. The school will keep slipping in comparison with area public schools, and schools elsewhere in the country, as long as denial overwhelms the conversation.
My child was tutored for the SAT
By anon
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 7:37am
by a tutor in one of those towns ranked way above BLS (according to this list). The tutor was a parent and tutored many kids in that town for the SAT and couldn't get over the amount of work my child has to do at BLS.
Consider the income/educational levels of parents
By Sally
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 3:29pm
in Acton or Weston or Wellesley before you start making those comparisons. I know well that BLS isn’t perfect, but sheesh—the resources aren’t even comparable. Despite the much-ballyhooed alumni fundraising, there was never enough money for anything—sports equipment, etc—or the kind of basic resources that a Brookline High would take absolutely for granted, say fields or a track or more than a tiny handful of guidance counselors. And though there are definitely a lot of middle class kids there, I wouldn’t have said there were many wealthy ones and there were plenty low-income kids. I don’t think you could say the same about most of the other highs schools on that list.
Lol
By bgl
Tue, 10/16/2018 - 5:36pm
Obviously the Latin school must have done something to you for your odd obsession with it, but, here is US New's national rankings:
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools...
#48 in the country
#1 in MA
It also, by far, graduates the most students to Harvard in the country (generally around 20 a year).
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