The Globe resurrects the idea of reopening Washington Street to traffic as if that would solve all the problems related to the lack of stores - and let's not forget the question of where all those people would park. Hmm, but you could solve the parking problem by turning the Filene's Memorial Hole into a garage, although that would still leave you with no reason for people to drive down there. But maybe if they also shut down the Downtown Crossing and Park Street T stops, we could force people to drive there.
The Outraged Liberal is no fan of the car idea, either:
... Retail. That's what would bring the area back.
That and taking back bad decisions such as building an urban fortress on Washington Street that housed the uninviting and ill-fated Lafayatte Mall and is now home to an Eddie Bauer outlet and taco shop and heaven knows what else. ...
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Comments
The claim that rerouting
By NotWhitey
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 10:44am
The claim that rerouting cars would make the area an urban wonderland have been proven false - in Boston, and in other cities. Cars may as well be allowed back through the streets, if only to ease traffic on the surrounding streets. Those cars didn't just go away - they were pushed on to other streets, increasing traffic and aggrevation.
Short of tearing down every building and starting over, the area is never going to return to its former glory. Jordans, Filenes, Gilchrists and the rest are gone, and they aren't coming back. The city residents who fled the cities aren't coming back, and the suburban shopping malls are not closing. Downtown crossing should no more be closed down than any randomly chosen intersection in Manhattan. There has been no benefit, but there has been a price. And wanting things to be otherwise doesn't change facts. Failure doesn't depend upon whether failure is admitted or not - it sits there staring you in the face, rolling its eyes.
Lack of cars not the problem
By SwirlyGrrl
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 3:23pm
There are very few closures of streets downtown for pedestrians. This is one place where it does work, because the sidewalks can never be big enough through this zone at peak times and seasons. If you worked downtown, you would know that - and those pedestrians are buying things, when drivers won't, especially during lunch time and morning and evening rush hour when they flood the streets that are not closed.
That said, the impediment to car traffic in Boston is NOT street closures, as minimal as they are. The impediment to car traffic is that Boston never modernized its street layout like many cities did, and made only minimal changes after each conflagration. Boston failed to do what London, Chicago, and many European cities did when they had a giant fire, and built back on the same narrow lanes and property lines. The medieval street layout of Boston, with narrow lanes and direct spoke-hub set up, is made for people and horses and carts, not cars. No amount of parking garages and streets open to traffic will ever change that.
If I worked downtown? Just a
By NotWhitey
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:56pm
If I worked downtown? Just a guess, but I was probably walking those streets before you were born, when the sidewalks were packed with shoppers. Unless you plan on blowing up the city and rebuilding it, the rest of your post is irrelevant. The streets are what they are. Now what do you do with them. Removing cars was tried - it failed.
I agree
By bph
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:53pm
For many, many years those roads were open to cars & there were lots of shoppers, most of whom I'm willing to bet traveled in town on public transportation. The main reason there were lots of shoppers was that there were lots of places to shop.
Closing the roads to cars didn't save the area, and opening the roads to cars again won't save it. Decent stores might.
But I will admit I loved when they first closed the roads & it was so much easier to walk around the area.
A store like Wal-Mart, however, certainly won't.
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:56pm
Given Wal-Mart's long history of really killing off other, independent businesses, especially small family-owned businesses, and their lousy labor pollicies, they're not a trustworty store to have downtown. There was talk about putting a Wal-Mart in Assembly Square at one point, which thankfully met with enough resistance so that it so far didn't materialise...thank heavens.
Decent stores
By bph
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:58pm
Walmart doesn't make my list of decent stores.
Exactly, SwirlyGrrl.
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:50pm
Boston's a walking city, so to speak.
This:
gets precisely to the point. Way to go, SwirlyGrrl!
Excellent post, NotWhitey.
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:02pm
Your post says it all.....in a nutshell.
Dowtown Crossing needs a
By ShadyMilkMan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 11:00am
Dowtown Crossing needs a radical makeover, it has the charm of a skunk, and it smells like one too.
The one thing I can think of is to invite a place like Goodtimes to relocate into Downtown crossing, and give them a good set of tax breaks to do it. I think that would drive foot traffic into the area.
I was going to say "parking garage"
By Will LaTulippe
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 12:33pm
But that's an even better idea.
We have great retail like
By neilv
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 12:47pm
We have great retail like H&M and DSW there now. Why can't we have more of that?
Do we just need more of a critical mass of good shopping and lunch restaurants, a little spiffing up of the streets and the "dark alley" to the Common, and a PR campaign to tell city residents that it's now all right there on the Red Line?
Are you thinking of Good Time Emporium as a complement to that, or merely as a last resort in face of Downtown Crossing being taken over completely by loitering teenagers and their tribal dramas?
And the developers responsible for that hole should be made to feel extremely, personally motivated to build in it.
Im thinking the kids already
By ShadyMilkMan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 1:24pm
Im thinking the kids already go there and always will so why not put in something that will benefit from their being around. So the place can live off of these roving bands of teens and then they will be followed by other groups who liked to go to places like Goodtimes. Kids and their parents, college kids, laser tag for office workers after work. That area is void of anyplace that is a fun place to go to after a long days work, or that attracts kids on the weekends. I know people who work right above that area who would hold monthly after work laser tag nights if it was convenient (they have tried to do it, but once you get more then a mile from the office people lose interest.)
Now that you have life coming in and out of a building that doesnt depend on random traffic walking by you can build other stores to cater to the people walking by to get to the entertainment. Thats the problem, you can have the best stores in the world but if I can just go to a mall they will never take off. Fanuel Hall works because of tourism and its between points. Harvard Square works because the Harvard students and employees have to be there, its a tourism stop, and it has the stores. You need good stores but you need something to help push you to that critical mass, thats why most shopping areas have anchor stores. Unfortunatly in our current climate most massive chain stores would rather be in Burlington and Braintree then Boston.
Is the problem that people
By neilv
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 2:27pm
Is the problem that people who live in the city would rather procure a car and drive out to a mall, than walk/T to Downtown Crossing? Or is it that not enough people live in the city to support a district of nice affordable stores?
Regarding not shutting down in the evening, that would be great, so long as it's generally positive nightlife, and not just creating another sketchy zone of public drunkenness, fights, etc.
If we want to decide that Downtown Crossing shall be cemented as a slum for a couple decades, I think we should just say that. Perhaps something like the following? Macy's, DSW, H&M, etc. will eventually give up and close their Downtown Crossing locations. They'll be replaced by a storefront church, a liquor store, check-cashing, a lottery/convenience store, a pawn shop, a tat parlor, a seedy bar, the food court, boarded-up vacant storefronts, and a hair&nails small business. Tourists will be steered away, if necessary by turning the Freedom Trail into a Freedom Tunnel in parts. And new retail will sprout up elsewhere, perhaps in vacancies on Newbury. Then some developer buys up depressed Downtown Crossing for a song and gentrifies it. It may be that's what some people are thinking, and if so, we should just discuss that in the open.
I think plenty of people
By ShadyMilkMan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 4:47pm
I think plenty of people live in the city, but they leave town to do their major shopping. Its the same in many other major cities as well. It comes down to what do you do with the space and do you put in what people really want? I think entertainment that is available day/night is really needed in th city, it just doesnt exist.
Macys and all those other stores you mentioned are available in other areas as well, they are common. Sure the office workers stop there on the way home, but its no big deal they can just stop at the mall on the way home too, or on saturday. I think the problem is the area is failing to bring in people who dont happen to work right above the stores.
Bring traffic in and you will get your nifty little stores. All of these funky stores everyone seems to want dont grow in areas with high property values. They grow in areas that are a little seedy and a little "unsafe" but they have a high volumn of foot traffic and are safe enough (too safe and rents go up.) Once the area becomes more well known and "hip" those stores get forced out. So if funky and hip are what were looking for maybe a liquor store and a tat parlor wouldnt be such bad things...
This is stodgy Boston.
By neilv
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:16pm
This is stodgy Boston. Funky and hip can sprout up in the college neighborhoods and depressed areas.
Downtown Crossing is potentially prime real estate, walkable to many other key locations, and right on the Red Line.
I'd like to see Downtown Crossing be a place that's welcoming to a healthy middle class. Boston around there seems too much divided between the wealthy and the poor. The middle class is priced out and scared away.
Also, in my middle class envisioning of Downtown Crossing, there will still be place for the Army/Navy store and such. The economy is not booming, and I don't see upscale and major retailers gobbling up all the space in the near future (oh, if we had such problems). Zoning and a business association could help promote a healthy mix long-term.
This is outside my expertise; just one citizen's perspective.
downtowncrossing. org
By ShadyMilkMan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 11:23pm
http://www.downtowncrossing.org/
Downtown Crossing *is* a college neighborhood
By Ron Newman
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 6:57pm
among other things, and it needs to embrace that role instead of resisting it. The expansion of Emerson College and Suffolk University is bringing many students to this area. How about trying to cater to them a bit more?
They actually have the
By ShadyMilkMan
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:10pm
They actually have the layout to pull that off. My advice would be to be careful. Cambridge shows both how that can work (Harvard Square, and increasingly Porter/Davis (Somerville mixed in there)) and how it could be a mess (Kendall is just layed out all wrong, its in Cambridge but I swear they zone it like its Burlington.)
Kendall reflects MIT
By neilv
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:44pm
It's common for MIT grad students to basically not leave campus their first year. And that's not because they're enjoying all the fruits of a rich city experience in Kendall. :)
Harvard Sq., Davis, and Central work in different ways from each other, and DTX should be different, still.
Goodtimes?!
By Ray
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 4:09pm
I think you mean drug traffic, not foot traffic.
Yup--
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:29pm
This:
is exactly my point, Ray.
"Goodtimes" closed for a reason:
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:04pm
It became, or had already been a place with a well-deserved reputation for drunken brawls, and I think there were at least one or two stabbings there. They need something like that at Downtown Crossing like an extra hole in the ground.
Goodtimes closed because
By ShadyMilkMan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:22pm
Goodtimes closed because they are putting in an Ikea, which is a much bigger money maker for everyone involved. If Downtown crossing could pull off an Ikea or Target or something Id say go at it, but thats not happening (although Menino has show interest in Target in the past.)
I can see putting in a Target Store at Downtown Crossing,
By independentminded
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 5:32pm
but not an Ikea. People who buy at Ikea rely on the use of their cars, and, if the problem of additional motor vehicular traffic down in Stoughton that's resulted when the Ikea down there was built is any indication, this situation could very well be worse in an already-congested area such as Downtown Crossing. We don't need vehicular traffic down there, which is just what putting an Ikea in Downtown Crossing would (help) generate.
Good Time Emporium tried to move to Brockton
By Ron Newman
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:04pm
After they lost their lease in Somerville to Ikea construction, Good Time tried to open a larger establishment in an old Brockton warehouse. The city of Brockton liked the idea, and even changed some zoning to accommodate them, but a bank pulled the financing out from under Good Time at the last minute. Good Time ended up auctioning off every piece of equipment they owned.
Is it possible, though, that nobody wants "Good Time Emporium"
By independentminded
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:25pm
back anywhere, at least in part due to the reputation they had for drug trafficking, drunken brawls, etc.?
Downtown Crossing = Urban Wasteland
By anon
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 11:35am
I was just at Downtown Crossing yesterday. We walked through on our way from Chinatown to South Station (Boston Geography, Master Class?) And it was dead, dead, dead. On a Saturday afternoon. It reminded me of Kalamazoo.
Would allowing driving make people drive through there? No. It's not on the way from anywhere to anywhere. And few people have any reason to go there, ever.
The only thing that could save Downtown Crossing is making it the site of the cheapest parking garage in Boston. That's the only thing that would given people a reason to go there. The parking refugees might end up buying something every once in a while.
Commerce that is decidedly "Boston"
By Kaz
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 12:32pm
Downtown Crossing has lost a lot of its anchor lately. What it could really use is a "draw", a reason to go there. Give tax breaks to small one or two location boutiques that will serve the low to middle income communities.
"Why go to DTX? Because Store XYZ is *only* located at DTX and Store XYZ has great pricing on something I need to go buy." That's what people need to be saying to bring life back to the commerical space. Why do people go to Newbury St? Because most of the shops and restaurants are *only* at those locations and have items people want with the middle-upper class in mind. DTX should be like a tier-down version of Newbury St. With Filene's Basement and a few of the other places, that's what it essentially was. Why do people go to Fanueil Hall? Because much of it is shops, cart vendors, and restaurants that cater to tourists and are *only* located at Fanueil Hall.
This is a terrible idea.
By stygmata
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 12:36pm
This is a terrible idea. Downtown Crossing is far more blighted by speculation gone bad than it is by being a pedmall. Yes, many towns have ripped up their pedmalls that were built in the 60's, but most of them have neither the history, architecture, or infrastructure of Boston.
I just cannot see encouraging more auto traffic downtown. What would do far more would be extra park-and-ride spots around the edge of town, with express trains headed straight into downtown.
I also can't reconcile this with rumors that Gov. Patrick is headed towards implementing a congestion fee for travel into Boston, nor the fact that last I heard we are slated to lose something like 1200 parking spaces from two municipal parking lots that were going to undergo development.
Yo, Globe: Think Ideas + City Weekly
By david_yamada
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 12:44pm
The Downtown Crossing situation is exactly the kind of civic topic that the Globe could use to make itself more relevant. How about devoting a Sunday op-ed feature to DTX, asking a handful of top city planning and business folks to contribute ideas, soliciting and then publishing the best of public ideas, and asking mayoral candidates for their DTX plans?
I realize that the Globe's financial woes are linked to ad revenues, but its lost significance as a civic institution is due in part to its lack of editorial leadership. If it could harness some of the local expertise and street smarts and apply it to problems of the city, it would be a more relevant paper.
According to the article the
By J
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 1:17pm
According to the article the area is dead at night and cars would add life, and so more people would go there.
Doesnt everything close at 8pm?
You think that perhaps that's the reason?
I wonder if Lansdowne street is lively at night because of the cars...surely there's nothing else that could influence people to be at a place...
Landsdowne Street is alive because of the ballgames and Avalon's
By independentminded
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:40pm
True, the baseball season hasn't yet gotten underway, and i won't for awhile, but places such as Avalon's make it a lively place, too, during the better weather. I don't think the cars really have anything to do with it.
Avalon was demolished last year
By Ron Newman
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:43pm
Have you been there lately? A House of Blues now stands where Avalon used to be.
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgwilkins/2451332284/... demo photos[/url]
Avalon was demolished?
By independentminded
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 7:44pm
Didn't know that. I stand corrected.
I was down there last night..
By dvdoff1
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 1:20pm
A friend was in from LA last night and he wanted to take a ride downtown to see how much it had changed since we were kids. It took us 8 minutes to go from Avery Street to West Street, due to the limos in front of the Opera House and the people getting out in front of Felt. Also, any given day of the week, when the Silver Line starts to back traffic up on Temple Place, that's not a pretty wait either. Bringing cars back downtown will do nothing but create a traffic nightmare down there, I'm sorry to say. I'd have to agree with the Liberal, what's needed down there is more retail, and none of that high end crap that we all know would fail down there. There were always people that shopped at Jordan's and Filene's, but there were more people that shopped at Gilchrist's, Raymond's, Kresge's, Woolworth's, and the Basement.
The proper combination of low end and high end stores was what made the Crossing a success when I was a kid, even with the cars. Can you imagine what the dreaded Wal-Mart would do in the Crossing? Or IKEA? And the jobs both would bring? Probably enough work to get the punks off of the corner of Wash and Winter. I hate Wal-Mart as much as the next guy, but it could be a positive first step in this case.
Pedestrians and retail
By Nan
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 2:22pm
There's a big catch to adding more retail to a downtown pedestrian mall, especially for retailers like Ikea or Wal-Mart. How do shoppers get their purchases home? You might not mind carrying a small bag from a boutique store, but lugging around larger purchases on the T is tough.
Big stores won't locate downtown just to provide an entertaining place for people to browse; they need shoppers to actually buy stuff and take it home.
Wal-Mart?
By independentminded
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 6:56pm
No way!! As I mentioned in another post on this subject, Given Wal-Mart's history, they cannot be trusted not to just totally take over an area and just kill off all the other businesses.
Isn't this kind of a strawman argument?
By adamg
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 6:59pm
Or has WalMart changed its policies and started opening up in downtowns, rather than sucking all the life out of them from the safety of giant parking lots out by an Interstate?
No, I don't think it's a strawman argument at all, Adam.
By independentminded
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 7:10pm
Why should they be trusted, given their history of driving away small and/or independent businesses, or other businesses, period, and their lousy labor policies.
If you think my argument is straw, here are a couple of suggestions:
A) If you've got a DVD player, you might want to see if you can rent a copy of the documentary "Wal-Mart: The High Costs of Low-Pricing". It gives a lot of insight into Wal-Mart's policies and they affects they have overall, and might very well b e of interest.
B) If you can get hold of Bill Quinn's book "How Wal-Mart is Destroying the World and What Can be Done About it", you might find that this book is of interest also.
All told, both the DVD and the book give good, interesting insights as to the destruction that Wal-Mart has wrought in many places. Just saying...
I'm not disputing WalMart's business practices
By adamg
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 7:14pm
What I am questioning is whether WalMart would even consider opening a store in Downtown Crossing. Unless I'm wrong (and somebody please tell me if I am), they just don't open stores in downtown areas. If they in fact still avoid downtown areas, then there's no reason to start ranting about how evil they are in the context of a discussion about Downtown Crossing, because they won't be opening here and no sane person could argue that the Walmarts in Framingham or Walpole are destroying downtown Boston.
A Wal-Mart in Downtown Crossing?
By independentminded
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 7:25pm
Here's keeping fingers crossed and hoping that day never, ever arrives!
Also, since one or two other posters here on UniversalHub mentioned/suggested that a Wal-Mart be built in Downtown Crossing, I responded to those suggestions with my opinion.
Not Walmart. Target, however...
By eekanotloggedin
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 8:34pm
Walmart doesn't do urban; you are correct. But Target does. An urban Target like the one in Minneapolis would be AWESOME in Downtown Crossing. IKEA would similarly kick ass.
There are IKEA express-type stores in other countries (Canada and Germany that I know of off the top of my head) where there's minimal showroom space, stuff like couches and armoires and stuff has to be ordered, but you can buy all the self-serve stuff like linens, lighting, home organization, small-footprint chairs and tables, bookcases, etc. More like a True Value store, only it's IKEA. That would be awesome downtown.
Urban Target
By SwirlyGrrl
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 8:43pm
I've seen them in Minneapolis, Pasadena, etc. They fit right in and have things like groceries and useful office supplies and other stuff useful to office bots and travellers alike. They do tend to be smaller than the suburban ones, which is a good thing. It shows they know how to adapt.
Yes on Target
By neilv
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 10:15pm
I, too, was thinking of a Target from the start -- a relatively small one like the one near Union Square in Somerville.
That could even coexist with Macy's, I'd think.
Target would be OK in downtown crossing.
By independentminded
Tue, 03/03/2009 - 10:53am
The only problem I see with having an IKEA in Downtown Crossing, however, is that people who go to IKEA often don't use the subway, but use their cars to bring their merchandise home. The resulting increased motor vehicular traffic and congestion and pollution would not bode well for Downtown Crossing.
A Target would be good, however, because it's not the same kind of store as IKEA.
Parcel out a larger space
By stygmata
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 2:26pm
Parcel out a larger space into a series of small shops, boutiques and the like. Boston is sadly short on any kind of funky culture that has any sort of hipster youth appeal - you've got ghetto fabulous and yuppie, but precious little in between.
If some brave developer would take a chance and open up a space full of consignment shops, cafes, comic shops, music stores (if those still exist), and small retailers in general - that might have a chance of drawing foot traffic downtown with disposable income. Large space, small shops.
if you can believe it...
By david_yamada
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 2:55pm
stygmata, absolutely! Boston needs more of those places, hopefully concentrated in an area that draws people.
If you can believe it, roughly 15 years ago, Newbury Street had more of those kinds of shops, especially on the end near Mass. Ave. Some funky little shops, a 2nd-hand "nostalgia" store, bookstores, etc.
True dat. A lot of the urban
By lizkdc
Sun, 03/01/2009 - 6:19pm
True dat. A lot of the urban villages around the city once thrived on that sort of mix. Harvard Sq still has it some, but has lost some of its character to chain stores. It's what makes Coolidge Corner work. For the bigger buildings, a Target might work--a mix of the fun and practical--but neither a super high-end store, nor a super-low end chain are likely to work.
Lizkdc
http://lizkdc.typepad.com
Another thing downtown needs
By adamg
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 7:15pm
Stores that sell basic commodities of life, such as groceries, home supplies and the like. I forget where I read it, but there are now something like 6,000 people living downtown, which is kind of an amazing number.
Word!
By SwirlyGrrl
Mon, 03/02/2009 - 8:49pm
Even us office bots could really use a grocery store and some sundry options besides CVS. The area is a sea of CVS, Dunks, and 7-11 and damn little else.
I get really tired of either hauling in lunch on a daily basis or having so few affordable options for lunch. Lunch places typically run $8-10 dollars or more - and that is the cheap option. I can only carry so much with me on the T and take up a decent amount of space with the other things I take along for the ride.
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