A sticker from one of those Nazi cosplayer groups showed up in Brookline Village today. State Rep. Tommy Vitolo (D-Brookline), says: Not in my town:
Free speech doesn’t entitle anyone to lamp posts. If I see any of these hateful postings, I’m going to rip them down. I encourage you to do the same.
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And yet you've linked to a
By anon
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 7:40pm
And yet you've linked to a photo of the sticker thus giving it way more eyeballs then it would ever get on a lamp post.
I'm through with that shit
By adamg
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:23pm
In my journalism career, which now stretches way back, I've covered too many stories of Boston-area Jews or other minorities not doing anything about hatred hurled at them for fear of offending their Christian neighbors (or not knowing where to turn in the case of a refugee family) and the result is always the same: It just gets worse and worse until something really horrible happens (in one case, a temple's entire sukkah being torn down, in another, a family came home to find their pet canary, in its cage, thrown into the pool to go along with some other destruction in their home).
So, yeah, no more. Yes, it's just a stupid sticker or flier. But that's how it starts. Better people know that there are actual Nazis walking around out there now than just sitting back and waiting until a whole bunch of them show up and try to start trouble.
That's exactly how it starts
By h4x0rati
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:58pm
It starts with stickers, flyers, suggestions on the street, someone making a snide remark on the T, looking the other way...
And this is how it should be handled
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 11:09am
Private citizens pulling this crap down.
The government should only be involved if they are pulling all flyers/stickers etc. Down. Otherwise you get the government determining what is acceptable speech. There are limits of course, but from what I've seen and heard, nothing posted goes outside the extremely liberal bounds of protected American speech.
Really strange that you feel the need to goto bat for Nazis
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 11:35am
I mean stop beating around the bush, these aren't people that are having debates about fiscal policy, they literally believe certain members of our society shouldn't exist and post this garbage to terrorize those people.
Their speech is owed no protections and your own choice of words here is very disturbing.
Nobody's going to bat for
By MattyC
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 11:54am
Nobody's going to bat for Nazis. I fucking hate Nazis. I bet Stevil does, too. But the government going around pulling objectionable speech off of lampposts is actual fascism.
Leave it to the people, who do not have to tolerate hate speech, to do the dirty work, rather than our government, which is Constitutionally obliged to tolerate objectionable speech.
They use their speech to terrorize
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 12:36pm
The First Amendment does not project speech calling for violence upon a person or group.
Everyone should fight speech like this, you seem to want to defend its right to exist, which is going to bat for them even if you claim to object to their speech.
Cite please?
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 10:45pm
I'd love to see a supreme court or appellate court decision or two that supports the assertion you're making here. For my side, I'd suggest Brandenburg v Ohio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
Not sure if the basic Wiki of that goes in depth enough,
By boo_urns
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 9:20am
But, my reading of it is in the facts the person charged "stopped short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law," and therefore wasn't convicted of anything. That is, they didn't incite violence based on the test. But what Spin's getting at is that urging to "resist the law" (assault, battery, or some other unlawful behavior). Again, without having more examples of the law to cite, it's unclear what passes the "imminence" or "likelihood" parts of the test. I'm not entirely convinced that they don't have a point, or that this is a closed case of protected speech. But, IANAL, of course.
Actually you are wrong
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 11:56am
Unless you care to ignore the US constitution and centuries of legal precedent, then you'd be right.
Nobody is defending what they say. Only their right to say it as long as it doesn't cross certain legal limits. If you can't identify the limit they have crossed, you can't make such a statement.
In the meantime, people of good will are free to rwar this crap down and I encourage everyone to do so.
What if the government takes down all political themed messages.
By Pete Nice
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 12:10pm
And leaves up the "lost dog" photos? That is almost community service 101.
Yawn, getting tired of this cowardly excuse
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 12:32pm
They literally believe certain members of our society shouldn't exist and post this garbage to terrorize those people. Full stop.
That crap doesn't belong in our community. Members of our community have spoken up against this hate speech and addressed it. Its really strange and telling that you object to that.
Tired of people supporting 1st amendment only if it's covenient
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 1:50pm
What was on the sign that violates the first amendment? If you can't state that by quoting verbatim, then you have no case.
And like it or not - hate speech is not against the 1st amendment unless it is intended to provoke violence - plus it has to be on these signs to be relevant. Neither you nor anyone else gets to be the thought police.
I get it - these are horrible terrible people - I agree. But even horrible terrible people are entitled to their rights under the constitution.
Nazis terrorize and provoke violence on people
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 1:57pm
That is not protected speech and you know it. It should be shamed and chased out of town but here you are trying to carry water for them.
If you can't see that, then its because you are being a willfully ignorant troll.
Who's the troll?
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:35pm
Ain't the people wishing to kick Nazis out of the community
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 3:10pm
The people heming and hawing about muh freeze speech? It might be coded language but we see right through it.
He's not
By MattyC
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:58pm
There is no speech on the posted stickers, whatsoever, other than to name an organization that we all, collectively, find repugnant. But there is no incitement to violence, no actual hate on the sticker.
If you find the 1st amendment so objectionable, feel free to propose an amendment to have it stricken from the Bill of Rights. Then fly that up the flagpole and see who salutes.
More willful ignorance
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 3:03pm
Yeah Nazi's totally don't advocate for violence and murder of various members of our communities. Nope not all, never heard that before.
Go ahead, call them repugnant but stop just short of calling them what they really are. How brave of you.
The part you seem to be missing
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 7:22pm
is that advocating violence and murder is in fact protected speech.
There is a distinction between "advocating" and "inciting" and there is about 200 years of case law on this.
Question for you
By lbb
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 4:19pm
Can you give an example of when anyone has ever directed hate speech at a group that you were a member of?
I'm just wondering if you've ever been on the receiving end of these behaviors that you've decided are ok.
Ooh Ooh
By Roman
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 5:01pm
Jew ... check
Conservative Republican ... check
Immigrant ... check
White ... check
Male ... check
Heterosexual and cisgendered ... double check
Gun owner ... check
All of them at once, in Massachusetts ... you bet your ass.
Roman he said examples
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 5:32pm
Not the plot for your latest fan-fic.
You poor little bunny
By SwirlyGrrl
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 7:09pm
Please point to the place on the doll where expectations of responsibility for your own behavior/self control and not getting automatic advantage for being a straight white male hurt you.
Well - let's see...
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 5:02pm
Anti-Catholic screeds from born again Christians in college (long before anything to do with the repugnant things exposed in the 21st century - and really more to do with Catholic religious teachings) and I was actually teased for being a Nazi in elementary school because I had a German name. Of course my father resorted to using his middle name Robert because you didn't want to be a 12 year old during WW II with a name like Otto - because of course all German born in the US are automatically evil Nazis.
And then there's my experience in Asia - mostly in Japan - where I was told all Americans were fat and lazy (but not me, because I wasn't fat back then and I kept Japanese salariman hours - go figure). Oh and of course as a white guy - there were certain places I wasn't allowed to live, and of course being white also made me mentally incapable of speaking Japanese - but they had to tell me that in Japanese because they didn't speak English. And of course my whiteness also made me physically incapable of using chopsticks.
And then we can start that because I'm a white male, that now automatically makes me a racist misogynist pig due to an accident of birth...
Shall I continue?
And exactly what behaviors are you asserting I am approving of - other than people are entitled to exercise their rights - even if the exercise of those rights offends us?
"And then we can start that because I'm a white male"
By spin_o_rama
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 5:35pm
Oh lol you're really serious about the faux victim complex uh?
Interesting, on this thread you've doubled down on your asinine point that those Nazis aren't trying to provoke violence and terrorism with their garbage but then you go right into the MRA talking points about how you've been a victim of hate speech because you're a white male.
Wow honestly this has been quite the journey. You've gone from "hate speech is protected speech, those Nazis didn't say anything violent" to "someone teased me for being white, thats hate speech." The mental gymnastics here are Olympic-level.
You lack the mental capacity
By Stevil
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 7:31pm
To participate in meaningful discussion when you resort to making up things and attributing them to me and you also demonstrate a thorough ignorance of the first amendment.
Take a class in logic and constitutional law before furthering the demonstrations of your ignorance.
PS, i am nobody's victim. just stating facts.
"automatically makes me a racist misogynist pig"
By spin_o_rama
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 9:25am
Yeah ok, totally just stating facts.
You have no interest in having a logical discussion, you've moved the goal posts on your nazi apologia plenty of times to contradict yourself.
I have no interest in welcoming nazi speech, I don't care if you think their speech is protected, we will continue to chase them out of community, you can stand on the sidelines and support their perceived right to harass and terrorize. Congrats.
Quit while you're ahead
By Stevil
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 9:34am
you've had three people show you that you don't understand the limits (and lack of limits) of the first amendment. you also misquote and put words in people's mouths that they clearly didn't say to make your point.
I will stand right there with you to protest the presence of these people in our community as I did last year when they came to Boston Common. I just don't want the government to do it until and unless they cross legal lines. Other than putting a flyer on a telephone pole, they have not crossed that line and you have repeatedly failed to show that they have.
Time to give up. You've lost this argument many times over.
That white privilege just oozing right now
By spin_o_rama
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 10:43am
Look its cute that you don't think these people are violent individuals that want to terrorize and murder members of our community. Thats the line bud.
Members of our community are quite literally protesting and ridiculing their speech, I see you here defending their right to do it and splitting hairs about whats crossing the line, adorable.
Why do you keep making the same stupid argument
By Stevil
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 2:14pm
In an argument you've already lost?
LOL Ok buddy
By spin_o_rama
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 3:44pm
I hate to be the one that says "scoreboard" but you should really review this thread.
Oh and speaking of stupid arguments, I noticed you're post below about racism against white people, again adorable that you think thats a thing.
The fragile white male, on full display here.
Say hello to Trump 2.0
By Stevil
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 3:48pm
These are the attitudes that pushed white people to vote for him (not me, not ever). They are sick of people saying when white people (especially males) have a problem, it's their own damned fault.
You my friend are as bad as the Nazis with attitudes like that.
"as bad as the Nazis."
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 4:55pm
Snowflake, how do you even go outside?
And there it is!
By spin_o_rama
Wed, 03/13/2019 - 9:08am
Poe's Law rings true again!
I'm glad you've resort to this, it at least shows you've sorta admitted defeat :)
Also bonus points for another MRA talking point, love it!
tis but a scratch
By Stevil
Wed, 03/13/2019 - 9:29am
He says as he's writhing on the ground in agony with no arms and no legs.
Suitable for framing
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 10:09am
White guy sez he totally knows what it's like to be a minority target of hate speech because someone gave him a fork in Japan once.
Lulz.
White guy sez he totally
By Scratchie
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 10:34am
Can we put Stevil's post in the dictionary next to the definition of "White Privilege"?
Sure
By Stevil
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 2:18pm
because racism against white people isn't racism.
And you conveniently ignore the rest of the post.
Interestingly - I didn't experience racism when I lived in Singapore that I noticed - but I wouldn't want to be Indian or Malay in that society. It's somewhat closeted, but it's there - or maybe it isn't under your definition of ignoring everything you can't minimize?
You're missing an important distinction
By Bob Leponge
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 10:17am
You seem to be missing the distinction between, on the one hand, recognizing that hate speech is legally protected speech and, on the other hand, endorsing said hate speech.
Yeah but
By Sock_Puppet
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 10:39am
His answer was totally worth it.
Like I said above
By Stevil
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 2:22pm
because in your world racism against white people isn't racism.
Anti catholic speech isn't in the same league with anti-semitism
It's not OK to say "paddy wagon" any more - but calling those with German heritage Nazis (even though there family has lived here since before WW II) is perfectly fine.
got it - you really want Trump to get re-elected.
me me! pick me!
By ElizaLeila
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:18pm
IN the City of Boston, no one can post on public property, including on lamp posts.
https://www.boston.gov/departments/public-works/how-we-keep-boston-clean
Freedom of speech Adam
By anon
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:03pm
Freedom of speech Adam
Works both ways
By adamg
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:15pm
As the rep says, it's his right to rip every last one of them down.
Also, please review the First Amendment (it's not hard - it's really short). The free-speech part refers to government action, not to what individuals might do (so since Mr. Vitolo is part of the government, I'm sure there are any number of individuals who are not who would be more than willing to step up and tear them down).
Ain't no governmental authority
By erik g
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:07pm
stopping you from hanging posters with swastikas, anon. Just like there's no governmental authority (preemptively) stopping me from cramming them somewhere you'll need to get them surgically removed if I catch you hanging them. Isn't freedom of speech great?
Nobody has a Constitutional right to put stickers on lampposts
By Ron Newman
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 11:41pm
Not for Adolf Hitler, not for your band's next gig either. The owner of the lamppost gets to decide what, if any, speech is allowed on it.
However, I think communities
By anon
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 12:51am
However, I think communities are better off if there are public bulletin boards (or poles that serve as such) in areas with pedestrian traffic.
I disagree
By ElizaLeila
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 9:33am
about allowing crap posted on poles. It just gets destroyed and becomes garbage that no one takes responsibility for.
Public bulletin boards, sure - but make certain someone is there to take care of it so we don't have more garbage lining the sidewalks and streets.
Speechy keen
By OriginallyFromD...
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 6:31pm
And posting about this flier on Universal Hub reflects Adam's rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press, too.
Civil liberties are complex and compelling issues but I'm not sure how mindlessly crowing "freedom of speech" in response to a news report of an incident like this advances any constructive discussion.
Just more distortion and conflation of what "freedom of speech" means. Universal Hub is a great site, sure, but Adam isn't an elected governmental official making laws that infringe on this person's views.
Hate speech is not free
By anon
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 11:03pm
Hate speech is not free speech
Hate speech is absolutely free speech
By Bob Leponge
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 12:08am
The whole freedom-of-speech thing is not about freedom to say nice things that everyone agrees with, it's about freedom to express decidedly unpopular opinions.
freedom of speech
By anon
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 10:27am
is about THE GOV not shutting down speech they disagree with, not protecting racist vandalists, BOB
when you defend violent rhetoric dont be surprised when it turns on you, either in the form of actual physical violence or the removal of your benefits which these guys support too, cuz they *totally* care about you and aren't using you
That's what the second amendment is for
By Roman
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:48pm
To protect the first, and to protect against the possibility of its abuse. Follow along, eh?
Um, no
By anon
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 5:09pm
If that were the case then the NRA would have supported the Black Panthers when they armed themselves against police who were systematically "coon hunting" black people in LA.
So let me get this straight
By Roman
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 4:03pm
NRA fails to live up to its stated principles...therefore the principles are invalid.
Let's see if anyone else might want to stand up for the right of armed self defense if the NRA should lapse?
Oh look, from today's New York Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/opinion/sunday/...
And I'll let slide the tacit assumption that the Black Panthers in 1960s California were all smiles and sunshine.
Lots of topic drift here
By Bob Leponge
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 1:59pm
Just for the record, my position is:
Increasing government
By Scratchie
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 5:05pm
I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to show your work here.
Sure....
By Bob Leponge
Tue, 03/12/2019 - 7:19pm
Sure. I'll give you Pakistan, where saying things that piss the religious off is termed "blasphemy" and carries the death penalty. Or Russia, whose legislature just passed a law criminalizing criticism of the state. Or Thailand, where anything that could remotely be construed as criticizing the monarchy is a crime. Or Egypt, whose government is throwing journalists in jail. Or Turkey.
Shall I go on?
I hope police check security cams
By anon
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:34pm
How the person(s) who did this don't show up on someone's cam is almost inconcievable.
People, we just talked about this.
By MrZip
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 8:58pm
If you care about tolerance, you can't tolerate the totally intolerant, I know its a paradox and hard to wrap your head around at first, but please try. There is no need to show any respect to those who espouse discrimination and violence, they do not deserve "equal time". Stickers on light poles are vandalism. Not Art. Not Speech. We should all fight for their right to put the stickers on their own property, their RIGHT to speak their minds on Boston Common, to publish their views. But we should also try to shout them down, put up our own stickers on our own property, publish our own views and shine a bright light on these clowns. We've let this become normalized to the point that people don't even know how to respond. Ask a member of the Greatest Generation how THEY feel about Nazis and their recent emergence from their mother's basements and Obama-era bunkers. I bet they can't believe we're letting this happen again. Complacency, not voting, not being present and engaged is an insult to all who went before us and fought for our civil rights.
It's not even a paradox
By Scratchie
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 1:22pm
This isn't a paradox, unless you also think "You say you love animals, but now you're upset about the lion eating your baby" is also a paradox.
Yes, despite the confusion of right-wing numbnuts on
By MC Slim JB
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 2:13pm
the subject, anti-intolerance does not equal intolerance. In fact, anti-intolerance is the opposite of intolerance: look, it's right there in the word! Anti-. Intolerance. Get it?
And yet in every thread like this, some brain-dead wingnut chimes in, "Oh, the intolerant left and their hatred of Nazis!" Amazing such people can walk and breathe at the same time.
Or, to put it another way
By Scratchie
Mon, 03/11/2019 - 3:14pm
"So much for the tolerant left!"
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/2...
Brave Stevil
By Sock_Puppet
Wed, 03/13/2019 - 11:08am
[img]https://i.ibb.co/q1L3kcX/6bc.jpg[/img]
It's getting to the kids too
By Will LaTulippe
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 9:10pm
My colleague works in the Lynn schools. He caught a kid drawing swastikas on his desk, and sent the kid to the principal. The kid told him "It's the German flag."
To his credit, my buddy told him "I don't need a history lesson from you, you're failing every class."
Not
By Luke Warm
Sat, 03/09/2019 - 10:09pm
freedom of speech you fucking wet diaper fuck. this is about power, there are more decent people than Nazis, so force them to shut the fuck up. they deserve to be silenced, and if breaking the law they deserve to be prosecuted. You can't go around threatening to kill, the president, you can't go around shouting sexual innuendo and minors or even adults for that matter, then you sure as fuck can't go around asking for millions of people to be exterminated. fuck nazis.
Don't let me catch you...
By Lecil
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 12:12am
This is around the corner from where I grew up. I crossed this intersection almost every day on my way to school when I was a kid. I still live less than 2 miles away.
I find you putting this s(&t up in my old neighborhood, you're going to learn what a screaming banshee sounds like. Trust me, the police station which is just a few yards down the street is going to know that something is up and if you are lucky will get to you first.
Your hate is NOT ACCEPTABLE HERE!
Juicy
By Jon Carry
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 8:36am
Anyone seen Jussie Smollett in the area?
Chicago is not Brookline
By OriginallyFromD...
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 4:51pm
How is the Jussie Smollett case even relevant to this Brookline, Massachusetts incident?
Just admit you have a crush on Jussie and move on already.
All the Boston antifa crap
By anon
Sun, 03/10/2019 - 10:49am
On the SWC is totally ok though right?
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